Ken Kreisel Subwoofer Owners & Discussion Thread

[Ccyao]

I thought for Dxd-300, you need to stack them to get the full effect? If you are able to integrate the LVX12 and KK, I would recommend option 1.

Thank Bro! I'm more inclined towards option 1 as well.

Hope Audyssey would be able to do a good job in integrating them as I have difficulty understanding how to use rew.

 

 

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[kopidilo]

Hey bro ccyao, congrats on your new purchase!

 

Could u share your thoughts on the purpose of the adding/changing subs?

 

My initial thoughts are both your sub models seem quite similar in capability. Ie. looks like stronger in midbass thump and less low rumble. And if both are similar in capability, why keep different subs models? Non identical subs are much more harder to integrate and calibrate together. But if u already the tools and know how, go ahead to try :) but more may not sound better for your case of 2 lxv12 and 2 dxd300

 

If the purpose is to have more low rumble and low bass pressure, u might want to consider swapping out 2 to change to subs capable of low rumble e.g. 15" or 18" subs. . But u will need the tools to integrate them properly and time align, if not, more may not sound better.

 

If the purpose is just to smoothen the bass in the room and not add deep bass or low rumble, then I would just go for option 2. Or just keep 2 identical subs.

 

How big is your room? I rem u shared b4 its small room

 

[rayleh]

Thank Bro! I'm more inclined towards option 1 as well.

Hope Audyssey would be able to do a good job in integrating them as I have difficulty understanding how to use rew.

 

 

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I don't think Audyessy can do a great job integrating 2 different subs. Will need to get your hands dirty using the REW

[rayleh]

Hey bro ccyao, congrats on your new purchase!

 

Could u share your thoughts on the purpose of the adding/changing subs?

 

My initial thoughts are both your sub models seem quite similar in capability. Ie. looks like stronger in midbass thump and less low rumble

 

If the purpose is to have more low rumble and low bass pressure, u might want to consider 15 inch subs.

 

If the purpose is just to smoothen the bass in the room and not add deep bass or low rumble, then I would just go for option 2. Or just keep 2 identical subs. How big is your room? I rem u said not big, so question is do u really need 4 subs?

 

Agree that bigger woofer for subfrasonic. If he is not stacking the DxD-300 then I rather keep the current LXV12 if smoother the FR is the main purpose. Stacking KK is to have the layered bass feel, that is the main selling point of KK.

[Ccyao]

Hey bro ccyao, congrats on your new purchase!

 

Could u share your thoughts on the purpose of the adding/changing subs?

 

My initial thoughts are both your sub models seem quite similar in capability. Ie. looks like stronger in midbass thump and less low rumble. And if both are similar in capability, why keep different subs models? Non identical subs are much more harder to integrate and calibrate together. But if u already the tools and know how, go ahead to try :) but more may not sound better for your case of 2 lxv12 and 2 dxd300

 

If the purpose is to have more low rumble and low bass pressure, u might want to consider swapping out 2 to change to subs capable of low rumble e.g. 15" or 18" subs. . But u will need the tools to integrate them properly and time align, if not, more may not sound better.

 

If the purpose is just to smoothen the bass in the room and not add deep bass or low rumble, then I would just go for option 2. Or just keep 2 identical subs.

 

How big is your room? I rem u shared b4 its small room

Thanks for your input, Bro!

My room is 3m x 3.5m. The max it can accommodate is 12".

 

LVX12 is ported sub. I'm happy with the low rumble. the main area that I'm looking to improve on is the mid bass thump.

 

 

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[econav]

First even they are all 12” and similar in power .

 

DXD 300 is sealed Vs LVX 12 which is ported , the Air pressure in room and sound are totally dif .

 

Many user of KK also hv Rythmik together in their setup .

 

Is not  that difficult to syn few sub or even 2/4 dif brand  and size of sub in one setup , the more importance factor is the Cone vs Amp recover Speed that hv a good control of the driver . Rythmik Direct servo come in place for this and KK the Analog way of pre/ control with the Driver ( proprietary Secret

that only the 2 friend Ken and his driver maker know ).

 

After all think in this way , what same brand or same size is more easy to setup ? Sure they delay is the same and if the same why we still need so called Phase and Gain align ?

[kopidilo]

Thanks for your input, Bro!

My room is 3m x 3.5m. The max it can accommodate is 12".

 

LVX12 is ported sub. I'm happy with the low rumble. the main area that I'm looking to improve on is the mid bass thump.

 

 

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Nice. Thanks for sharing.

 

Are u planning for both lvx12 and kk to cover same freq range? Or different freq coverage for each?

 

 

[econav]

Thanks for your input, Bro!

My room is 3m x 3.5m. The max it can accommodate is 12".

 

LVX12 is ported sub. I'm happy with the low rumble. the main area that I'm looking to improve on is the mid bass thump.

 

 

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remember few yrs ago , when i setup at your room , i say you will end up rumble more then mid ..... well is time to wait for yr stack of DXD 300 and by then i am sure you will keep the 4 subs or ......... am cooking something you may hv a feel when receive your stack of DXD 300.[emoji7]

[Ccyao]

Nice. Thanks for sharing.

 

Are u planning for both lvx12 and kk to cover same freq range? Or different freq coverage for each?

Paiseh. I don't really understand these numbers. [emoji28]

Think it will depends on whether I go for option 1 or 2.

 

 

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[Ccyao]

remember few yrs ago , when i setup at your room , i say you will end up rumble more then mid ..... well is time to wait for yr stack of DXD 300 and by then i am sure you will keep the 4 subs or ......... am cooking something you may hv a feel when receive your stack of DXD 300.[emoji7]

Good memory Peng!

Yes, cos that was my first purchase on ported sub.

Really looking forward to the mid bass thump.

 

 

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[kopidilo]

Paiseh. I don't really understand these numbers. [emoji28]

Think it will depends on whether I go for option 1 or 2.

 

Oh the question was more for option 1. Purpose is to think about how u intend to set it up, integrate and calibrate the 4 subs. :)

 

U shared that lvx 12 seems to be giving u some good rumble in your room size but lacking midbass. And u said adding kk300 is more for midbass reasons.

 

So if u plan to keep your lvx12, I assume the key purpose would be to retain it for low rumble. And kk300 more for midbass.

 

So one option to set it up is to have dxd300 cover everything below your avr lowpass xover, leaving  lvx 12 to cover ONLY the lower freq eg. 40hz and below. This might result in a "cleaner midbass"

 

Other option is letting lvx12 handle the exact same freq range as dxd300, ie. Freq below your avr low pass crossover point. But this will mean u will be hearing 2 different bass signatures throughout the freq range covered by your subs, which more often than not, tends to smear the sub that has better midbass signature. This is experienced by many bros who had non identical subs. I experienced the same too when I owned both Kk and Rythmik. Kk was KING in the mid bass thump, unrivalled. But once I added the Rythmik running same freq range, it smeared the SOUND of the midbass.

 

It is possible to make them sound good together, but caveat is - lots of hard work and time to calibrate them, lots of rew measurements. Also, u will need to add a dsp too to time align the multiple subs. :)

 

Hence the question. Your thoughts?

[Ccyao]

Oh the question was more for option 1. Purpose is to think about how u intend to set it up, integrate and calibrate the 4 subs. :)

 

U shared that lvx 12 seems to be giving u some good rumble in your room size but lacking midbass. And u said adding kk300 is more for midbass reasons.

 

So if u plan to keep your lvx12, I assume the key purpose would be to retain it for low rumble. And kk300 more for midbass.

 

So one option to set it up is to have dxd300 cover everything below your avr lowpass xover, leaving  lvx 12 to cover ONLY the lower freq eg. 40hz and below. This might result in a "cleaner midbass"

 

Other option is letting lvx12 handle the exact same freq range as dxd300, ie. Freq below your avr low pass crossover point. But this will mean u will be hearing 2 different bass signatures throughout the freq range covered by your subs, which more often than not, tends to smear the sub that has better midbass signature. This is experienced by many bros who had non identical subs. I experienced the same too when I owned both Kk and Rythmik. Kk was KING in the mid bass thump, unrivalled. But once I added the Rythmik running same freq range, it smeared the SOUND of the midbass.

 

It is possible to make them sound good together, but caveat is - lots of hard work and time to calibrate them, lots of rew measurements. Also, u will need to add a dsp too to time align the multiple subs. :)

 

Hence the question. Your thoughts?

Thank you so much for the insightful advice!

 

I tried to understand REW previously but struggled with that.

 

Frankly, my thought is this.

After listen to both, I value mid bass more than low rumble. I am even willing to sacrifice a bit of the low rumble if I can't get them integrated to produce reasonably good results, hence I have option 2. I think the low freq that Dxd-300 can produce will be good enough for me. It also depends on whether there is buyer for my Rythmik. Otherwise, I don't mind keeping them as well.

 

If I go for option 1, I will try to set up both subs to handle different freq as recommended. May need to consult you (probably offline) when I do it. [emoji1374]

 

 

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[econav]

1) The older model of KK have a roll off set around 20 Hz with a 12db slope.

2) Freq below a give point say 20Hz , is called lowpass. means freq from this point and below pass thru to the Amp.

3) Freq  from a give point say 20Hz start to roll off below this point is called Highpass , means freq from this point up is pass to the amp and start to cut off from 20Hz.

4) Freq that have two cut off point is called bandpass say 20-200Hz or 200Hz-400 Hz ,that means it start to roll off at this two freq point with a pre-set slope.

5) When multi sub are deploy , once should consider it just like a 2ways/3ways or even 2 and a half way speaker setup and that is why each speaker have it own freq to handle and that is why you have a so called woofer and a mid bass also a tweeter , no mfg connect the 3 driver to drive all the freq

6) the woofer handle a set of freq below a design point ( low pass ) the mid driver handle a design of 2 freq point ( bandpass) and the tweeter handle a give freq upward ( highpass ).

7) 3 way /2 way speaker system all using dif szie of driver from dif maker the items that make them sounded as once is Xover ( in the Multi sub setup is the external EQ device ,but location of each sub is more importance then just add a eq device in the very first place ).

8) The importance in sound reinforcement is headroom vs sound pressure needed for a given user or location.

9) You don't need multiple sub to go loud or Bigger driver then can go deep , but after sometime you will able to tell what is missing and what your need is.

10) Nothing sound better then understnad the room and sound pressure that room can take and what the user feel , then you can finish it to produce what you need.

 

Afterall a subwoofer is just another speaker/driver , it makes no difference just like your amp have speaker A and B and you hv 2 sets of made one connected to A another connected to B they should sound difference and even you connected 2 sets of same speaker but in a dif location in the room they will still sound dif base on the room acoustic characteristics some prefer spk A ,another prefer spk B but some like the A+B ..........

 

 

[kopidilo]

Thank you so much for the insightful advice!

 

I tried to understand REW previously but struggled with that.

 

Frankly, my thought is this.

After listen to both, I value mid bass more than low rumble. I am even willing to sacrifice a bit of the low rumble if I can't get them integrated to produce reasonably good results, hence I have option 2. I think the low freq that Dxd-300 can produce will be good enough for me. It also depends on whether there is buyer for my Rythmik. Otherwise, I don't mind keeping them as well.

 

If I go for option 1, I will try to set up both subs to handle different freq as recommended. May need to consult you (probably offline) when I do it. [emoji1374]

 

Sure. Happy to assist :)

 

From what u share, seems like u might prefer something simpler to integrate with minimum hassle / rew involvement as u had challenges with rew. So I would strongly avoid option 1 to have non identical subs as that require a lot of hassle/ rew involvement

 

If this is the case, and your room is not big, and u value midbass more, I would  stick with dual dxd300 spread out in your room (not stacked) to smoothen the bass response and eradicate dips.

 

Use a dsp that can auto time align + integrate your 2 subs without the need for much rew measurements (ie. antimode.)

 

Then, after that, if you still don't find 2 subs enough (which I feel shld be suffice for your room size) , then consider adding 2 more dxd300 to stack onto the current 2 dxd u have.

[Ccyao]

Sure. Happy to assist :)

 

From what u share, seems like u might prefer something simpler to integrate with minimum hassle / rew involvement as u had challenges with rew. So I would strongly avoid option 1 to have non identical subs as that require a lot of hassle/ rew involvement

 

If this is the case, and your room is not big, I would to stick with dual dxd300 spread out in your room (not stacked) to smoothen the bass response and eradicate dips.

 

Use a dsp that can auto time align + integrate your 2 subs without the need for much rew measurements (ie. antimode.)

 

Then, after that, if you still don't find 2 subs enough, then consider adding 2 more dxd300 to stack the current 2 dxd u have.

Thanks Bro!

If there is no taker for my Rythmik by then, I might just try out both options.

I do have an Antimode DC but I believe I'm not using it to it's potential.

 

 

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[kopidilo]

Oh u have antimode dc. Perfect then. Its a super user friendly hassle free dsp.

 

Make full use of it for your multiple subs setup.

 

Your lvx12 are excellent subs at good price point. Shld not be difficult to sell :)

 

Avoid non identical subs where u can. Unless the know how, tools and time is not a obstacle for u.

 

[Ccyao]

Thanks. Yup. Have been very happy with them.

 

 

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[Jag]

I personally don't recommend unless you know how to :

 

1) Use REW as a power user to perform measurements on Freq resp, time delay measurements, custom EQ setup

2) Able to optimize external DSP to splice 2 types of subs together

3) cross-over cross-over settings for 2 types of subs (in your case, ported + sealed) within the LFE band.

 

Its not impossible, but if you are hoping that Audyssey will do wonders for 2 different subs, be prepared for disappointing results.

 

I would recommend to always use multiples of the same subs. Using different subs without a special 2-way x-over just within the LFE band is best avoided. Why? The 2 types of subs will cancel each other out at some freq, and combine at other freq.

 

 

[Ccyao]

I personally don't recommend unless you know how to :

 

1) Use REW as a power user to perform measurements on Freq resp, time delay measurements, custom EQ setup

2) Able to optimize external DSP to splice 2 types of subs together

3) cross-over cross-over settings for 2 types of subs (in your case, ported + sealed) within the LFE band.

 

Its not impossible, but if you are hoping that Audyssey will do wonders for 2 different subs, be prepared for disappointing results.

 

I would recommend to always use multiples of the same subs. Using different subs without a special 2-way x-over just within the LFE band is best avoided. Why? The 2 types of subs will cancel each other out at some freq, and combine at other freq.

Thanks Jag!

May I know what is "a special 2-way x-over"?

 

 

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[Jag]

Thanks Jag!

May I know what is "a special 2-way x-over"?

 

AKA Active Cross-over.

 

An active (DSP based)  cross-over just for the LFE is recommended for applications that intend to use different type sof subwoofers to cover different portions of the LFE.

 

At this point, I still highly recommend you to use 1 type of sub. Either KK or Rythmik; and not both.

[kopidilo]

I personally don't recommend unless you know how to :

 

1) Use REW as a power user to perform measurements on Freq resp, time delay measurements, custom EQ setup

2) Able to optimize external DSP to splice 2 types of subs together

3) cross-over cross-over settings for 2 types of subs (in your case, ported + sealed) within the LFE band.

 

Its not impossible, but if you are hoping that Audyssey will do wonders for 2 different subs, be prepared for disappointing results.

 

I would recommend to always use multiples of the same subs. Using different subs without a special 2-way x-over just within the LFE band is best avoided. Why? The 2 types of subs will cancel each other out at some freq, and combine at other freq.

 

+1 fully concur.  :)

[Ccyao]

Thanks guys!

Appreciate your inputs. [emoji1374]

 

 

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[econav]

look out on the commercial sales posting....

[econav]

Pic from customer

 

[econav]

Another pic from customer