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ATMOS / DTS-X and Ceiling mounted speakers discussion thread

petetherock
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petetherock Life Member

petetherock

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There was some kind of demo recently in USA, and the listeners seem to prefer the reflected sound off the ceiling versus ceiling speakers..

 

But if we use ceiling speakers, coaxial is preferred. That means a source like the AG speakers will be good.

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honyewl
honyewl

Late to the Atmos bandwagon.  I did not bother with Atmos because I think my setup would not bring out the best of Atmos - it has less than ideal characteristics:   - MLP back against the wall -

petetherock Life Member

petetherock

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http://www.highdefdigest.com/blog/dolby-atmos-home-demo/

....

Do I Need to Buy Special Atmos Speakers or Can I Keep My Current Speakers?

alt=Atmos Enabled Speaker Dolby Atmos Home Version: Demo + Q&A width=300http://www.highdefdigest.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Atmos-Enabled-Speaker.jpg[/img]

 

If you plan to use the version of Atmos that fires sounds upwards from ground level to bounce off the ceiling, you will need specific Atmos-enabled speakers. You cannot simply take some old bookshelf speakers and aim them towards the ceiling, for example. The Atmos modules in the speakers need to shape the sound frequency so that it bounces correctly.

.....

If you plan to use only direct-firing speakers, with discrete speakers installed in the ceiling, you do not need special Atmos speakers. Your existing mains and surround speakers will work fine. You’ll just need more of them.

petetherock Life Member

petetherock

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Useful for those planning Atmos ceiling speakers:

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/dolby-atmos-moves

 

Dolby representatives recommended a flat ceiling with a height of 8-14 feet for Atmos-enabled speakers. Cathedral ceilings may be incompatible with the reflected version of Atmos, though I’m sure they’d work in some situations. Dolby also recommends that the Atmos-enabled speakers be at least 3 feet from any listener. There was also the inevitable question on "acoustical ceilings."  The answer:  so-called popcorn ceilings should be fine (their acoustic properties are virtually nil), but other types of absorptive treatment on the ceiling would be a bad idea. If you use discrete ceiling speakers, however, neither cathedral ceilings nor acoustical ceiling treatments should be an issue—as long as the latter doesn't block the sound from the ceiling speakers.

alf Mentor

alf

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Some info from the HKG show:

http://www.feversound1.com/140809-atmos/

 

The ceiling speakers are behind and in front of the main listening position...

I think to fit the ceiling speakers in the centre of the ceiling will be quite challenging for those who are looking to retrofit them in to current setups without some major hacking...

 

Not too WAF friendly I am afraid...

 

height=600 width=900https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3904/14674565120_661216c699_b.jpg[/img]

 

Base on the looks the ceiling height is hight , it is possible .

 

During the Hong Kong Hifi show in the hotel ball room same set up with rigging trusss in the room . Wah impressive kudos to Asia Theatre .

petetherock Life Member

petetherock

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A well written post with salient points on speaker position:

 

This bodes well for those with smaller rooms, as it seems that the full Atmos experience can be gained even from a relatively small reflective area. Those with ceiling treatments may yet be able to use Atmos-enabled speakers or modules so long as they can create this clear central reflective area.

 

....

 

ideally the ceiling speakers should be between 2 and 3 times the height of the listener level speakers. So in other words,  if your main speakers' tweeters are 3.5 feet off the ground, then you will need a ceiling speaker to be at least 7 feet from the floor for the best effect, and preferably a little more.

 

most people present later confirmed that they actually preferred the Atmos speakers to the ceiling-mounted speakers.

 

.....

 

More flexibility than we might have expected.

 

Stephen's reply was interesting. He said that the actual positioning of the speakers was not as critical as we might have been conditioned to expect, basing our knowledge on the precise positional information dictated by ITU specifications for 5.1 and 7.1 systems.  This would explain why the angles cover such a broad range. For example, as I pointed out, 30-55 degrees for the Top Front could cover a ceiling distance of several feet and Stephen's view was that, so long as we stayed within the recommendations then we should be good to go. This was also confirmed by JJ who pointed out that some flexibility was required simply because there could easily be some impediment to precision placing in the ceiling - eg a joist or a water pipe.  While this is only speculation on my part, this could explain why the AVR manufacturers have, at this stage, decided not to bother with enabling the detailed input of precise speaker positions: if the placement is less critical than we might have expected, then diminishing returns (audibly) might have made the additional cost and complexity of the units less worthwhile....

 

...

with regard to Blurays was that we could expect content to be available “in time for Christmas” and probably before.

...

 

Speaker configuration options - how much flexibility do we have?

 

I also explored with Stephen the different speaker configuration options which Denon have confirmed in their user manual, specifically the issue of the use of Front Heights in Atmos setups.

 

This is especially relevant to my own situation because in my room I have limited space behind the listening position and I cannot meet the specified angles for Top Rear speakers. However, I am able to meet the required angles for Top Middle (65-100 degrees) and by using the extreme of 100 degrees, the speakers do fall behind my listening position. However, Denon's spec indicates that we cannot use Top Front and Top Middle together, so my plan was to use Front Heights (at the 42 degree position - which is a specified position for both Top Front and Front Heights) together with Top Middle. The latter is a permitted combination according to Denon. So I was especially interested in Stephen's comments on just how much flexibility we have with the speaker options. Stephen replied with this:

“We have a set of minimum speaker configurations which must be supported in a Dolby Atmos product depending on how many speaker outputs it has. However, other configurations which make use of additional speaker configurations is permissible provided our requirements are adhered to by the manufacturer.  As you might recall, there are 34 speaker locations in the Dolby Atmos for the home format which consists of 24 "listener position" speakers and 10 "height position" speakers which can be thought of as 5 pairs of speakers in "front height", "top front", "top middle", "top rear" and "rear height" locations.  It is perfectly feasible to have front height speaker pairs used in combination with top speaker pairs in a Dolby Atmos system.  It is great to see that these additional configuration options are being made available by manufacturers such as Denon.”

 

petetherock Life Member

petetherock

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In the ensuing months, Dolby will be coming out with a white paper for custom installers of ceiling speakers, and that will certainly shed more light on how to go about this...

Doggie Howser Life Member

Doggie Howser

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http://canadahifi.com/bryston-ciw-ceilingin-wall-speaker/

 

Just in I think... Can't find in Bryston website.

 

 

 

Yes it is the Axiom/Bryston container that we developed together and our drivers and crossover.

 

Axiom and Bryston are really embarking on a partnership going forward in order to develop products specific to our market segments.

 

james

 

http://www.audioaficionado.org/bryston-audio/27909-new-bryston-ceiling-wall-speaker.html#post629679

petetherock Life Member

petetherock

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A paper that helps with speaker position:

http://www.avsforum.com/uploads/Dolby-Atmos-for-the-Home-Theater.pdf

 

If you use ceiling speakers, Dolby recommends that you use four or more speakers when possible, though two speakers will still provide a great experience. If you use four ceiling speakers, you should place thefront pair of ceiling speakers in front of the position where you’ll be listening andthe second pair of ceiling speakers behind you when you’re seated.If you use two ceiling speakers, mount them slightly in front of where you’ll be listening.Dolby recommends ceilingspeakers with wide dispersion patterns.If you use ceiling speakers with narrow dispersion (less than 90 degrees 90 degrees)or those with aimable drivers, angle the drivers slightly toward yourlistening position.
petetherock Life Member

petetherock

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More info on placement:

http://www.highdefdigest.com/blog/dolby-atmos-followup-answers/

 

 

...

 

Q: One reader has a small dedicated home theater with his main listening position against the back wall. Will this limit him to only to a 5.1.2 setup even though he’d like to use 4 ceiling speakers? How will the sound move across the Atmos channels if the top rear speakers can’t be behind the listening position?

A: A 5.1.2 with 2 overheads in front seems to be the best route. If he is limited to a 5.1.2 setup, it’s recommended to place the two overheads in front of the listening position in the ceiling. Or choose to introduce Dolby Atmos enabled speakers (integrated or module design) to his left and right front speakers.

Something he may want to try is to install the front two overheads as outlined above and experiment with placing Dolby Atmos enabled speakers modules on the side walls in the rear of the room above listening level. The use of Dolby Atmos enabled speaker modules in the rear may create the more diffused soundfield he seeks.

[in a later message, Josh forwarded this additional note.]

Suggest he consider moving the couch slightly forward; installing overhead speakers with wide diffusion characteristics behind the couch is also an option.

Q: Many viewers with traditional 5.1 or 7.1 systems already mount their surround speakers above ear level, either on the ceiling or high on the walls. Does this change the recommendation for a 7.1.4 minimum configuration? I would think that if the surround speakers are already up high, 7.1.2 would be a natural first upgrade. Or is it recommended that they add new surround speakers at seating level?

A: Dolby’s recommendation is that surround speakers do not exceed 1 ½ times the height of the listening position. They could consider adding Dolby Atmos enabled speaker modules above the left back and right back surrounds.

petetherock Life Member

petetherock

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Additional info about speaker placement:

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/1574386-official-dolby-atmos-thread-home-theater-version-154.html#post26671113

 

Speakers and placement considerations.

 

The speakers used at listener level were all Kef designs: the tower and centre speakers are from the Kef R700 range. The upwards-firing modules are built by Kef according to the Dolby Atmos-enabled speaker specification but Dolby has no further information on that aspect of the speaker. As before, the surrounds were all placed at approximately ear level.

 

Stephen later confirmed that this was to help create an optimal distance between the listener level speakers and the ceiling speakers. In fact, Stephen said that ideally the ceiling speakers should be between 2 and 3 times the height of the listener level speakers. For listener level speakers, the height of the surround speakers is still less critical when compared with the height of the front speakers, but Dolby recommend that surround speakers in a Dolby Atmos system be no more than 1.25 times the height of the front speakers.

 

Translating that to a practical example, if your main speakers' tweeters are 3.5 feet off the ground, then you will need a ceiling speaker to be at least 7 feet from the floor for the best effect, and preferably a little more. And for those same mains speakers, the surrounds should not be higher than about 4ft 3 ins.

 

Dolby spent some considerable time (and no doubt money) researching the way our ear/brain combination works with regard to our perception of overhead sounds. Apparently, when we hear sounds from overhead, there is a natural 'notch filter' engaged by our brain and the physical disposition of our ears (and even our shoulders which reflect sound back up to our ears) and between them, these help us determine when sounds are emanating from overhead. To capitalise on this, Dolby's Atmos speakers and modules have a frequency response which is shaped by internal DSP in the AVR. This includes a recreation of that notch filter which is important in telling us that a sound is coming from above us. At this time, Dolby would not reveal at what frequency this notch filter operates other than that it is in the HF area. I speculated 7kHz and JJ said “no, it will be much higher than that”. Stephen has since added that while a 7kHz peak is an essential part of the filter, it's not just about a notch or a peak filter, but the relative shape of the filter above 5kHz - everything above 5kHz being an important part of the filter.

 

  • 2 weeks later...
desray Life Member

desray

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I m not going to install a ceiling spk if I get the Atmos AVR in due course... Will probably get an atmos enabled ceiling firing spk like the pioneer or equivalent... But like everything label with "latest"  or "new"....The price is insanely high...

petetherock Life Member

petetherock

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You may want to check the cost of hacking and installing a speaker vs the expensive Atmos speaker..

I m not going to install a ceiling spk if I get the Atmos AVR in due course... Will probably get an atmos enabled ceiling firing spk like the pioneer or equivalent... But like everything label with "latest"  or "new"....The price is insanely high...

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