IC Burn In Theory.

[Jones99]

Its a curios thing. I see a lot of discussion about differences in cables, software players or whatever saying they cant possibly exist, you must be deaf not to be able hear it, or whatever but very little actual listening. A blind test is easy to do - simply pop on over to acquaintances systems and check it out. Anyone is welcome over to my place to check it out. But guess what - very few have taken me up on it and the few that have sort of sit there dumbfounded and feel a blind test is a waste of time. A guy posted he got an Audiophellio and was shocked about how much of a difference it made and confirmed it with a blind test - way to go I say. So how about it guys - a bit more listening and a little less conjecture?

Thanks

Bill

Not sure what you are trying to get at........ I have been quite actively seeking other peoples ideas and hearing other peoples systems.

I have listened to Marios,Grimmies,Tassos,SteveM systems and I hope to hear a lot more and have return GTGs to experiment and discuss. Is that not why we love this hobby?

I have tried CAFADs cooked and uncooked cables test. I am open to all things crazy or otherwise just to make my own mind up..

Once I have made my mind up my opinion will not change until it is backed up with my own listening experience not someone else's opinion.

I will gladly take up your offer when I am in QLD. If your ever in WA I extend the same offer.

Cheers

Jones

Edited December 7, 2012 by Jones99

[bhobba]

Not sure what you are trying to get at

I was not talking about anyone in particular - simply a general comment. I see a lot of discussion, but not a lot of posts about blind tests, that those posting about such things, and claiming they cant hear a difference, have carried out on variety of systems, and with different ears. You have done it on your system which is great but there is always this thing of the system its done on is not up to hearing the differences. Like I say I easily hear it on my system and my hearing is basically shot. I tried it blind when I purchased my cables and easily heard it. By trying it on different systems and with different ears I think a better understanding of whats going on can be had.

Thanks

Bill

Edited December 7, 2012 by bhobba

[bhobba]

I am yet to hear a tube amp that is neutral and accurate for my tastes.

Generally speaking Tube amps are not accurate but often have this divine sounding midrange that on the right material sounds transparent - meaning it has a quality that 'tricks' the ear into saying - this is real.

But either way if the cables are cables guys are correct cables should not make any difference with that amp or any other.

Thanks

Bill

Edited December 7, 2012 by bhobba

[Jones99]

I was not talking about anyone in particular - simply a general comment. I see a lot of discussion, but not a lot of posts about blind tests, that those posting about such things, and claiming they cant hear a difference, have carried out on variety of systems, and with different ears. You have done it on your system which is great but there is always this thing of the system its done on is not up to hearing the differences. Like I say I easily hear it on my system and my hearing is basically shot. I tried it blind when I purchased my cables and easily heard it. By trying it on different systems and with different ears I think a better understanding of whats going on can be had.

Thanks

Bill

Have you taken the time to google my components??? or have you heard any of them?

I would be very surprised.....no shocked if any one who has listened to my system believed my system is not capable of hearing the difference between cables.

And yet I hear no significant differences.

I will defintitely try the experiment in other systems though.......maybe its a valve thing or Tyuen is on to something.

Edited December 7, 2012 by Jones99

[Peter_F]

I admire Marios system as being timbre acurate ,airy with great imaging and seperation. I would not call it accurate to the studio recording IMHO.

I agree with both your statements there .

I think that Mario's system at the present is more accurate to a live performance. I don't think Mario's intention was to ever represent the accuracy of the recording, but the accuracy of having the artist performing in his loungeroom right in front of him.

I think this is well off topic now.

Edited December 7, 2012 by flemo

[bhobba]

Have you taken the time to google my components??? or have you heard any of them? I would be very surprised.....no shocked if any one who has listened to my system believed my system is not capable of hearing the difference between cables.

I am not doubting the transparency of your system just as I am hoping you are not doubting the transparency of mine. That's why the whole thing is interesting and deserving of further investigation. Why is it I, and others, hear it easily in mine but you don't on yours. IMHO that cries out for further actual listening on other systems, not conjecture, but actual listening.

Thanks

Bill

Edited December 7, 2012 by bhobba

[Cafad]

OT? That's pretty much par for the course in The Great Debate isn't it?

Mate that original comparison was through some ML1's at Mikes with Mike doing the changing for the blind test. Mind you he was using the Mac 501's.

Next time you are down his way get Mike to do the test for you - he loves doing it and seeing the shocked look on skeptics faces like my reaction was.

Thanks

Bill

I'll have to do that Bill, but I'm hoping that the ML1s powered by my Halcro gear will be able to show me any differences to be heard. Fingers crossed!

[Peter_F]

If anyone is desperate for a go at these I will send them on after this weekend, otherwise I will wait for my beloved SGR's to come home before making an ass of myself in proclaiming which is the cooked and therefore clearly superior.

Hi Grimmie, not desperate, but keen to have a listen to them on my system if possible?

I'm not sure if my system would be resolving enough for me to hear any differences at this stage. I have not paid a lot of attention to cables specifically in my system but would like to hear cables that may be considered quite decent.

If I got to hear them I wont be blind testing them, I'll just chuck 'em in and listen to them for a few hours at least, and then switch back. I don't believe in direct A / B testing either.

Cheers

Pete

[Jventer]

I just love SNA.

We can have a nice conversation about things we don't understand and have different thoughts and beliefs.

Cafad.

I just love my speakers, and I am sure you like yours. Your Halcro equipment is way more expensive than my stuff.

Maybe it is in the speakers - lets see

Maybe the Lenehan's are better?

[Jones99]

I am not doubting the transparency of your system just as I am hoping you are not doubting the transparency of mine. That's why the whole thing is interesting and deserving of further investigation. Why is it I, and others, hear it easily in mine but you don't on yours. IMHO that cries out for further actual listening on other systems, not conjecture, but actual listening.

Thanks

Bill

Agreed.

Edited December 7, 2012 by Jones99

[Cafad]

I just love SNA.

We can have a nice conversation about things we don't understand and have different thoughts and beliefs.

Cafad.

I just love my speakers, and I am sure you like yours. Your Halcro equipment is way more expensive than my stuff.

Maybe it is in the speakers - lets see

Maybe the Lenehan's are better?

I do like the Osborns JV, an aweful lot in fact, but since Bill (and a few others) has heard distinct differences on ML1s (and I have heard them and a pair of S2s and ML2 RLEs and I have to admit they are all bloody brilliant) then I am going to try again with ML1s. And be careful about using that "better" word, it can so easily be taken the wrong way, let's go with "more revealing of upstream equipment" shall we.

The amps are going to be in a completely different state with the ML1s, they can just sit and dawdle along with the Osborns (93db and a minimum 5.8 Ohm load means they can take it easy) but with the ML1s 86db and 8 Ohms nominal they will have to push much harder to get the volume up to where I want it. I won't be flogging them but they should at least break a sweat and maybe that will be what it takes to hear the "cable difference". I'm hoping anyway.

[Once was an audiophile]

Could it also be the 'quality' or design of the components that the cables are linked with, that plays a part of how much of an effect cables have?

To give you an extreme case just to get my point across, if someone was to fit an ac power re-generator into a power amplifier, then try different power cables from the wall, finding there are no differences in sound, hence coming to conclusion that they make little to no diff ? While a 'typical' power amp connected directly to the wall, the quality/shielding of the cable will have a bigger effect?

As for interconnects, a 'well' designed pre/dac output stage with very low output imp into a poweramp with very high impedance, cables will make less/nil of a difference then compared to a situation to where the impedance ratios are on the border of having noticeable roll-off effects in the audible frequency range?

Similar story with speaker cables.. I was reading the First Watt F1 amplifier manual from Nelson Pass (http://www.firstwatt...prod_f1_man.pdf) and found this paragraph interesting:

"If being a current source amplifier isn’t different enough, the F1 is special in other ways. It uses no feedback to reduce distortion, flatten frequency response or create a low output impedance, and it ignores the voltages that appear across the speaker terminals. It also ignores the wire and the quality of your speaker connectors and so on."

Saying all the above makes sense to me as to why I have noticed quite often that many of the more technical knowledged audiophiles/designers in the DIY community don't stress so much about the 'small stuff' like cables.

I don't know many people that stress about cables mortgage stress seems to be more common now days how ever some cables can make my ears stress on violin

[Once was an audiophile]

My hearing is utter crap - it has been tested to just barely reach 12K.

My system is very very resolving, ultra accurate, and ultra revealing as Jventer can verify - he has heard it.

Thanks

Bill

Ultra accurate i like that but its ultra accurate at what?

[Jventer]

Ultra accurate i like that but its ultra accurate at what?

I do like the Osborns JV, an aweful lot in fact, but since Bill (and a few others) has heard distinct differences on ML1s (and I have heard them and a pair of S2s and ML2 RLEs and I have to admit they are all bloody brilliant) then I am going to try again with ML1s. And be careful about using that "better" word, it can so easily be taken the wrong way, let's go with "more revealing of upstream equipment" shall we.

The amps are going to be in a completely different state with the ML1s, they can just sit and dawdle along with the Osborns (93db and a minimum 5.8 Ohm load means they can take it easy) but with the ML1s 86db and 8 Ohms nominal they will have to push much harder to get the volume up to where I want it. I won't be flogging them but they should at least break a sweat and maybe that will be what it takes to hear the "cable difference". I'm hoping anyway.

Thanks Cafad

Yes, better is not the best word.

I heard a pair of ML2's that was still "burning in" and I heard Bill's ML3.

Like I said to Jones99 . It is a journey and we all have different views and equipment. I am enjoying this journey. I also appreciate others giving their time to post their opinions and experiences.

I very much believe that it boils down to personal preferences , budgets and experience.

Looking forward to your further tests.

[jeromelang]

Is there any easy way to check the transparency of one's audio system, that different people with different systems, different standards of setup, in different room conditions can utilize?

The answer is yes.

Jim Smith described it in his book - "get better sound"

"...if you ever noticed how much faster your computor runs for a while after being rebooted, you should know that the computor in some dacs and cd players also benefit from files being shut down and then reopened. i won't name them here but, in 2001, there were at least two dacs from separate well-known companies that defintely benefited sonically from an occasional rebooting. the improvement after rebooting was rather surprising, considering the prices of these components...."

I've done this test on many people's system, including my own systems.

It is a prevalent problem that plagues all types of digital playback components, and regardless of price.

Just as there are many systems that can effortlessly exhibit the sonic differences that arise as a result of this rebooting procedure (or lack of), there are also many others that pull a veil over the sonic differences.

It is my experience that those systems that exhibit greater transparency to this problem tend to be more revealing of the sonic differences that can exists between cables, or even between different pressings of the same recording on the same media.

Edited December 7, 2012 by jeromelang

[bhobba]

Ultra accurate i like that but its ultra accurate at what?

It refers to the speakers. Its accurate at showing differences in what you feed it - it accurately reflects the stuff downstream so you can hear differences in cables, amps or whatever. I know you don't necessarily like some of my downsteam components but what I mean here is you can easily tell the difference.

Thanks

Bill

Edited December 8, 2012 by bhobba

[Once was an audiophile]

It refers to the speakers. Its accurate at showing differences in what you feed it - it accurately reflects the stuff downstream so you can hear differences in cables, amps or whatever. I know you don't necessarily like some of my downsteam components but what I mean here is you can easily tell the difference.

Thanks

Bill

I like your answer bill enjoy your journey

[koloss]

True, but I don't have anything to measure the capacitance with so I'll have to leave that to someone else. If my theory is on the money then we should be able to artificially burn in some ICs by just heating them up for a while. I don't have access to any fancy electrical test equipment but I do have access to a temperature controlled oven so I may see what I can do in that department.

In this case it wouldn't be temperature that is supplying the energy to evaporate the solvent it is the electrical current. And mate, I just told you my theory on what is happening so I have had a go at explaining how burn in changes the dielectric what more would you like me to say? To address the bold area of your post, I don't know but how about I google it and see what I can find.

Also, if you head over to DTV forums you will be able to find quite a long post (I went to a fair bit of trouble because I didn't believe that different metals, or cryo treatment, in ICs could be heard) by myself which compares several ICs and speaker cables and finds close to bugger all difference, and yet in the time between then and now I have changed my opinion on cables and believe that a significant difference is audible. So obviously I have heard something that changed my mind.

[koloss]

You could keep your new cables on the dash of your car for a couple of hot days.

[MrRogers]

Brilliant idea, koloss.

The cables can then enjoy the journey too.

[Cafad]

Every cable, with their conductor and wrap around dielectric, forms a sort of capacitor, which stores a charge in the dielectric material when there is current running through the conductor.

If current stops running through the conductor, over an extended period of time, the stored charge in the dielectric material can dissipate.

It may takes more than 20 hours in some cases for the dielectric material to be restored to its previous charged condition when current begins to run through the conductor again.

That means a "burn-in" cable that is left unused for long period of time, may need to be plugged in and have a signal running through it to "warm up" to reach its optimum performance condition again.

And that would explain the need to "charge up" the cables again at regular intervals. As explanations go it works (and better than mine too!).

[Phantom]

Brilliant idea, koloss.

The cables can then enjoy the journey too.

Yeah.

Everyone loves a liquid dialectric and teflon fumes.

[Grimmie]

Well, it's been something of a wait for those following this thread, and I do apologise for being 'the bottleneck' in the whole assessing process.

My problem has been that my SGR MT3F system has had a blown tweeter problem that has taken quite some time to resolve as it involved sending the heads back to Stuart in Melbourne for repairs. In the meantime I’ve been enjoying my WAR audio kit speakers that I made some fifteen or so years ago, and although I do love the music they make I just don’t think that they are resolving and clear enough to muster up for this job.

The good news is that I have the heads back now and am firing on all cylinders as it were. The bad news being my severely tested bank balance, - great timing being the time of year it is, and given that I have just forked out a kings ransom for the AMR Pre-DAC recently.

To the point....I have also been checking out the cooked vs uncooked vs my Mark Stager Solid Silver cables and am finally able to do the report thingie and pass them on to flemo if he’s still interested. I hope the wait hasn’t put you off mate.

I used a variety of music, my Chesky Records compilation CD ‘Jazz Sexy’, & Bliss ‘Quiet Letters’ principally but also various electronic / dance / jazz tracks that I know well.

Cooked vs uncooked. – Luckily there are two pairs of each, so being active I could use them on the mid and treble of my system to get a good feel for the sound.

I thought that one pair (of pairs) were a touch more soft or enclosed in their presentation, though maybe that could read refined and controlled. When I swapped them out over a few occasions the second pair were perhaps a little more open and clearer or should that be harder and brighter. To be honest after several swaps I began to lose the focus and certainty that I had experienced initially, even to the point that I wasn’t too certain which of the sets were the first and second.

Very scientific and decisive. - NOT (do they still say – not?)

But no, - I will go with it and say that the pair of pair with the ties were the mellower of them, though that is not trying to guess which were cooked vs uncooked, nor even which I preferred, and if you wanted to bet good money on a DBT with me picking them out, - forget it, I’d be amazed if I could beat 60% success.

Actually of more interest after that uncertainty was the comparison to my Mark Stager Solid Silver cables that I normally use. Here I found that three pairs of the Redgum Audio Pipeline Oxygen-free Copper were comparatively coloured and soft with an easier presentation of music than the MSSS, which had clarity and openness if a harder edge to the music. Which did I prefer? well it would have to be the MSSS as I couldn't live without the extra detail dynamics and clarity but I did enjoy long listening sessions with the Redgum, - very beguiling.

Perhaps you will be able to pick the run-in cables better flemo. Would you like me to send them over or would you like to come up to the bleak Northern Suburbs to have a listen to them in mine first? you would be more than welcome for sure.

[Peter_F]

Hi Grimmie

Yes mate still interested for sure if they are IC's?

I don't know if my system would be sensitive enough for me to hear the difference but certainly keen to have a listen. My system is more for loud, bash and crash, not oober smooth lounge lizard stuff!

I don't mind heading up your way, I'm just in Morley so not too far away.

Cheers, Pete.

[Grimmie]

Great stuff, we'll have to find a time suitable, would you be better with weekends, late afternoon or an evening. PM perhaps?

Edited December 28, 2012 by Grimmie