Guitars

[Tweaky]

What's that thing I have circled in Red, it looks like a little hole [it only needs to be the size big enough to put a Allen key in]

[MusicOne]

6 minutes ago, gator2310 said:

Yes that action is getting really high further up. You cant always find specs for them online especilaly if they are an archived model. Have a look inside the soundhole toward the neck for a hex male or female bolt...

My thinline Katoh has a truss rod but its a more recent instrument. It wasnt one of the really cheap ones and is a faantastic plug -in classical. Not much acoustically of course.

 

 

Yep....had a good look and no bolt or any device at all.

[MusicOne]

@Tweaky It appears to be a piece of wood or metal and it is flush with its surrounds. Perhaps it's a little hatch which will open?

[MusicOne]

7 minutes ago, MusicOne said:

@Tweaky It appears to be a piece of wood or metal and it is flush with its surrounds. Perhaps it's a little hatch which will open?

 

Looking with a brighter light, I can see that it sits in a cutout and goes about 2/3rds of the way up the cutout hole.

Edited February 18, 2017 by MusicOne

[MusicOne]

@Tweaky  I think there is perhaps an adjustment in there, but I wouldn't be attempting anything, myself.

[Tweaky]

Sometimes all you will see is a hole, nothing more, it depends on the design where the neck joins the body.

 

Unfortunately Classical Guitar makers like to keep things traditional, and not fit truss rods, as they argue that the lower tension used with Nylon strings don't warrant there use.......I think you could safely call that BS when looking at the state of your guitar at the moment.

 

The other problem is, and one I only just remembered, is that the neck heel on a Classical build doesn't lend itself for easy neck removal and subsequent neck straightening, unlike a steel string guitar.

 

I'd get a quote, if pass the realm of reasonable return a new guitar might be a better option, pity as that guitar has some nice wood in it.

Make sure the new one has a truss rod...... or, if you do go with the repair, as about having a truss rod installed, it would mean taking off the fretboard and routing a hole down the center of the neck to put the truss rod in, then putting the fretboard back on again

[Tweaky]

1 minute ago, MusicOne said:

@Tweaky  I think there is perhaps an adjustment in there, but I wouldn't be attempting anything, myself.

 

Well good, take it to your local guitar shop, they will tell you for sure within seconds.

[MusicOne]

5 minutes ago, Tweaky said:

Sometimes all you will see is a hole, nothing more, it depends on the design where the neck joins the body.

 

Unfortunately Classical Guitar makers like to keep things traditional, and not fit truss rods, as they argue that the lower tension used with Nylon strings don't warrant there use.......I think you could safely call that BS when looking at the state of your guitar at the moment.

 

The other problem is, and one I only just remembered, is that the neck heel on a Classical build doesn't lend itself for easy neck removal and subsequent neck straightening, unlike a steel string guitar.

 

I'd get a quote, if pass the realm of reasonable return a new guitar might be a better option, pity as that guitar has some nice wood in it.

Make sure the new one has a truss rod...... or, if you do go with the repair, as about having a truss rod installed, it would mean taking off the fretboard and routing a hole down the center of the neck to put the truss rod in, then putting the fretboard back on again

 

Right, I'll do that. Come to think of it, the guy who had my guitar for about 18 months, was a muso of sorts, so it wouldn't surprise me if he fitted steel strings to it so he could use it in his band. Wish I'd thought of that before....makes perfect sense and he's just the sort of guy who would do something like that.

[MusicOne]

6 minutes ago, Tweaky said:

 

Well good, take it to your local guitar shop, they will tell you for sure within seconds.

 

Cheers mate.

[MusicOne]

@Tweaky  Thanks for all your help mate....much appreciated.

[Tweaky]

18 months with steel strings on a Classical guitar.....lucky the neck is still on, it would explain the extremely high action.

 

You got to watch the humidity level the guitar tends to be left at in it's case, low humidity can cause neck to bow and wood to crack over time.

Get one of those cheap guitar case humidifiers that sit inside the guitars sound hole when in the case, it will help stop that sort of thing.

 

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Acoustic-Guitar-Ukulele-Supplies-Sound-Holes-Protective-Humidifier-Brown-Useful-/262712855850?hash=item3d2ae80d2a:g:YLkAAOSwHMJYI-zW

Edited February 18, 2017 by Tweaky

[MusicOne]

I bought the guitar from Haworths http://www.haworthguitars.com.au/....they were in Kiama (NSW) in those days (where I lived back then) and Phil Haworth was the guy who sold me the guitar. I'll have to contact Haworths and see what they say.

 

 

[Guest jakeyb77]

Humidity will cause the neck to bow.  A neck set from Brendan Mason from Madder Lake set me back $650 just to give you an idea. It also took two years. But the guitar is amazing now so it can definitely be worth getting done. I'm assuming you've looked under the bridge as they often come factory with spacers underneath that can be removed to lower the action. 

[Tweaky]

I've just been looking at their repair prices.... not too bad, but up there.....this where it pays to learn to do things yourself, especially if you own multiple instruments like many of us who post in this forum section do.

http://www.haworthguitars.com.au/repairs/

 

If it involves anything more than a truss rod adjustment [which hopefully the guitar has], I'd take it to a specialist Acoustic guitar repairer, as I'm guessing Haworths is not setup for what's involved with removing a acoustic guitars neck and steaming a neck straight, then resetting it.

I'm not dissing them, but they seem more orientated to basic electric guitar repairs, which are a lot easier, and I'm guessing if the guitar did need that sort of work, they would be handing it over to somebody else anyway....not a uncommon practice with guitar shops..... but in doing that, the repair suddenly becomes more expensive, as they also add a middle man cut for themselves on top of what the person who is actually doing the work is charging.

 

Definitely a 'Get a few quotes first' situation, as even the cheapest still might make a new instrument a better option, as if what I suspect is required, it's a labor intensive job, and usually only worthwhile on valuable vintage and very high end Acoustics, or ones of sentimental value.

 

But you might be lucky and the guitar store finds your guitar has a truss rod, and is should cost well under $100 to get sorted.

 

 

[gator2310]

 

 

Quote

 

I'm guessing Haworths is not setup for what's involved with removing a acoustic guitars neck and steaming a neck straight, then resetting it.

I'm not dissing them, but they seem more orientated to basic electric guitar repairs, which are a lot easier, and I'm guessing if the guitar did need that sort of work, they would be handing it over to somebody else anyway....not a uncommon practice with guitar shops.

 

Yep - there are luthiers and then there are guys who mostly work with solid body electrics which on the whole are much easier to work on.

Look for some guitar makers in the area. Especially acoustic guitar makers. If nothing else they can let you know whether theres much point in it. Another side effect of too much tension on the neck (if someone was actually silly enough to string it with steels) is that the top around the bridge could be damaged.

Given the time and money it might take , you might find yourself getting better value from a new one.

 

Good luck with that one.

 

Edited February 18, 2017 by gator2310

[MusicOne]

1 hour ago, Tweaky said:

I've just been looking at their repair prices.... not too bad, but up there.....this where it pays to learn to do things yourself, especially if you own multiple instruments like many of us who post in this forum section do.

http://www.haworthguitars.com.au/repairs/

 

If it involves anything more than a truss rod adjustment [which hopefully the guitar has], I'd take it to a specialist Acoustic guitar repairer, as I'm guessing Haworths is not setup for what's involved with removing a acoustic guitars neck and steaming a neck straight, then resetting it.

I'm not dissing them, but they seem more orientated to basic electric guitar repairs, which are a lot easier, and I'm guessing if the guitar did need that sort of work, they would be handing it over to somebody else anyway....not a uncommon practice with guitar shops..... but in doing that, the repair suddenly becomes more expensive, as they also add a middle man cut for themselves on top of what the person who is actually doing the work is charging.

 

Definitely a 'Get a few quotes first' situation, as even the cheapest still might make a new instrument a better option, as if what I suspect is required, it's a labor intensive job, and usually only worthwhile on valuable vintage and very high end Acoustics, or ones of sentimental value.

 

But you might be lucky and the guitar store finds your guitar has a truss rod, and is should cost well under $100 to get sorted.

 

 

 

Phil Howarth is supposed to be a luthier himself, so I guess he will know what to do.

 

The thing is, even as old as I am....approaching 70 years....I know from the way I'm progressing that I will be able to play quite well after sufficient practice. My hands are still quite young looking and I have good articulation.

 

It looks to be as though I will need a new guitar, because I have a deadly ear and I notice even the slightest imperfection. For instance, I knew there was something seriously wrong with the instrument, as soon as I played it and I can remember how it was before I loaned it out.....I'll never do that again.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 18, 2017 by MusicOne

[MusicOne]

1 hour ago, Jakeyb77 said:

Humidity will cause the neck to bow.  A neck set from Brendan Mason from Madder Lake set me back $650 just to give you an idea. It also took two years. But the guitar is amazing now so it can definitely be worth getting done. I'm assuming you've looked under the bridge as they often come factory with spacers underneath that can be removed to lower the action. 

 

I just checked and there are no spacers under the bridge. Thanks for the tip.

[Jake]

 
I'm learning to play classical guitar, though I would like to use it to play a bit of jazz, as well.
 
I'm going to have to bite the bullet and find a luthier who can do a set-up/regulation for me, though I would really like to get myself a new guitar....one by this guy perhaps: http://www.klguitars.com/
But his guitars cost $8K/$12K each, so it might be awhile yet. Aussies are some of the best luthiers in the world.

Having had my concert Ramirez stolen many years ago I one day decided to get another nice classical. Ended up getting a Hancock and it is even better than the Ramirez. Truely a superb, concert standard guitar. Anyway, I would recommend them without hesitation, but yes, the price is up there!

[Tweaky]

5 hours ago, MusicOne said:

 

I just checked and there are no spacers under the bridge. Thanks for the tip.

 

Well there is a adjustment you could make to your guitar that the only piece of equipment needed would be a sheet of sandpaper.

 

I noticed that on your bridge, it is built like a steel string , RE a single slanted bone that the strings rest against......I imagine that the pickup is installed under that slanting bone, and picks up the string vibrations through it.

My Gibson Hummingbird works in the same manner.

Anyway, if you take off the strings, you should be able to just remove that piece of bone in the bridge, and then just rub the bottom of the the bone back and forth on a piece of sandpaper to remove material from it while keeping the bottom flat, this will lower the action from the bridge end when you replace it.

I recommend marking the original height of the bone bridge with a pencil prior to removing it, so you can gauge just how much material you are removing.......it's a process of install reduced bridge, string up, notice difference, if needed [probably] repeat several times till a satisfactory result is found

It's very hard to mess this up, and even you did, it's a $10 replacement part if you find you have gone to far removing material, so definitely worth a try.

 

Two possible little problems doing this, firstly, depending on just how badly the neck is bowed, you could suffer 'Fretting Out' on frets 12 to 20, by that I mean that when fingering at those frets, the string will buzz across any higher ones down the neck.....personally I think your neck bow is so sever that this scenario is unlikely to happen.

The second problem is that by reducing the material on the bone bridge, it's height is reduced, this will also alter the angle of the strings running across it from the string anchor block.

What happens when you reduce that angle is string pressure is lessened, this will result in a different tension on the strings, and subsequently a lesser amount of downward pressure onto the contact pickup....so it will feel different, and possibly not sound as crisp and/ or loud when using the electronics.

 

The up side of doing this are several.

First it will reduce you string action, and make it possibly at least playable.

Secondly it's very easy to do, and requires no tools.

Thirdly, if you do decide to get the guitar fixed, replacing the bone bridge part to one of the original height is dead easy and cheap.

Edited February 18, 2017 by Tweaky

[MusicOne]

@Tweaky  Thanks for that most detailed post of yours....much appreciated.

 

I think my first move will be to take the instrument to Phil Howarth (a luthier) and let him advise me on what can be done, if anything. I'm really pi**ed off with the guy I loaned my guitar to....a former employee and I thought a friend.....it certainly looks like it was strung with steel strings while he had it and that would account for the bowed neck. When the guitar left me, it was in fine condition....learned a lesson there.

 

Cheers mate.

[MusicOne]

I managed to find these clips of a Kim Lissarrague guitar which is for sale for about $9K: http://www.klguitars.com/

 

Available Here: http://guitarcentre.com.au/

 

 

.......and this is a comparison with another brand (Gnatek):

 

 

This gives a better idea of what the Lassarrague is capable of:

 

 

Edited February 18, 2017 by MusicOne

[Guest Eggcup The Daft]

That guitar won't have any form of adjustment, it's a traditional Spanish construction apart from the cutaway and electronics.

If it's had steel strings on it, you won't have just the bend to worry about. The glue between the fretboard and the neck will have been weakened. The bridge may be loosened as well and the soundboard damaged (in any number of ways) into the bargain.

Straightening the neck by pressing/steaming is not a reliable repair in many cases. It's pretty much never a permanent fix, and with a traditional instrument, there's also a risk that the fretboard will lift afterwards as well (regluing with a modern epoxy glue can get around that one). The repair itself can cause damage to the rest of the guitar as well.

In your position, I'd look for a replacement. You don't need weeks of the guitar being fixed and the continuing worry that the problem is coming back or that other problems will happen over time.

 

Do you have a teacher? If so, talk to them about it. Some teachers know a lot about guitar construction and have seen it all before...

[MusicOne]

28 minutes ago, Eggcup The Daft said:

That guitar won't have any form of adjustment, it's a traditional Spanish construction apart from the cutaway and electronics.

If it's had steel strings on it, you won't have just the bend to worry about. The glue between the fretboard and the neck will have been weakened. The bridge may be loosened as well and the soundboard damaged (in any number of ways) into the bargain.

Straightening the neck by pressing/steaming is not a reliable repair in many cases. It's pretty much never a permanent fix, and with a traditional instrument, there's also a risk that the fretboard will lift afterwards as well (regluing with a modern epoxy glue can get around that one). The repair itself can cause damage to the rest of the guitar as well.

In your position, I'd look for a replacement. You don't need weeks of the guitar being fixed and the continuing worry that the problem is coming back or that other problems will happen over time.

 

Do you have a teacher? If so, talk to them about it. Some teachers know a lot about guitar construction and have seen it all before...

 

No teacher, I'm afraid. I had one when I first started to lean (briefly) about 15 years ago, but he tried to teach me to use my wrist bent towards the floor....so that the fingers were square onto the strings. I have since leaned that this is now an outmoded method of playing and can in fact cause problems and although Andre Segovia used that technique, I found that it didn't work for me. I'm using online stuff to find out the best technique and I'm pretty sure that I've stumbled on it. 

 

Thanks for your tips, John, but I think it's worth letting a repairer have a look and see. Just what I don't need at the moment....$? for a new guitar.

 

Cheers.

[Guest Eggcup The Daft]

3 hours ago, MusicOne said:

 

No teacher, I'm afraid. I had one when I first started to lean (briefly) about 15 years ago, but he tried to teach me to use my wrist bent towards the floor....so that the fingers were square onto the strings. I have since leaned that this is now an outmoded method of playing and can in fact cause problems and although Andre Segovia used that technique, I found that it didn't work for me. I'm using online stuff to find out the best technique and I'm pretty sure that I've stumbled on it. 

 

Thanks for your tips, John, but I think it's worth letting a repairer have a look and see. Just what I don't need at the moment....$? for a new guitar.

 

Cheers.

I'm self taught myself, so shouldn't really argue the case, but you really will do better with a decent teacher. You probably had a lucky escape last time round, but don't write off all teachers because of it. Do your research, and you now know a bit more to judge what you're getting.

It's a fair way to travel, but why not come along to a Sydney Classical Guitar Society meeting (First Saturday of the month, meetings take place in St Leonards, North Sydney) or get in touch through the website http://classicalguitarsydney.org and talk to people with knowledge of teachers across the area? A good teacher would have saved me about 15 years in reaching the point where I am now...

While I'm at it, Guitar Passion http://www.guitarpassion.com.au/ organise concerts in Sydney with top notch players, and watching the best is another way to learn. There's a top notch duo playing for them next Saturday, in fact.

 

The Society runs a Summer School in January and its guitar orchestra rehearses typically March to June. These are great tools for someone in your position as well. Travelling over seven consecutive Saturdays into North Sydney is a big ask to do the orchestra, but playing in a group is a great way to learn the things you won't pick up online.

 

There will be a classical music scene - clubs and groups - around you. Take time to find it. Playing with and for other musicians is the best thing you can do, at any level.

 

Back to the guitar... You'd be looking at maybe $1500 - $2000 for a "pure" classical guitar to the standard of that Admira, buying new, so not cheap.

[MusicOne]

@Eggcup The Daft John....I know full well the value of playing in groups and orchestras. Played in a number of groups in my younger years with my mandolin and in a Russian folk orchestra playing a Domra....a Russian folk instrument similar to a mandolin, but doesn't use double strings. That was a long time ago, back in the 1960s and early 70s. As it happens, my right index finger is ever so slightly bent, as a result of using a plectrum for all of those years. That's where I learned to sight-read...the Russians were all great sight-readers and I was expected to keep up (as well as learn a bit of Russian along the way). A great experience, though.

 

This might sound like a bit of heresy, but I don't think the guitar is shown at its best, in large groups. To me, it's essentially a solo instrument and more than two playing together, sounds a bit muddled....too many similar instruments competing for the same soundscape...they tend to crowd each other out, if you know what I mean. I viewed the guitar orchestra in the YouTube clip you linked to and if that orchestra threw in a few classical mandolins and other such instruments, I think the overall sound would be less homogeneous and more varied and musically interesting. Just my take on it.

 

You are of course quite right about the eventual necessity of finding a good teacher, but truly, I am managing quite well at the moment, but then I'm only in the exploratory stages....still getting acquainted with the instrument. I'll know when I'm ready for a teacher and I'll hunt one down then.

 

Might take you up on the suggestion of paying a visit to the Classical Guitar Society. BTW, loved that youtube clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qF8PUcTQrT0

Always been a great fan of Domenico Scarlatti's keyboard sonatas....I'm guessing this is a transcription of one.