MantisToboggan Posted October 23, 2012 Posted October 23, 2012 So changing direction from some of my previous posts, I'm looking for some info on the two channel tale. Initially I was looking for an AVR that would kind of do everything. If I go in that direction, I'm looking to get a Yamaha RX-V2073. If I don't go the AVR route, I've been recommended (from a couple of corners) Emotiva gear, specifically the UMC-1 and XPA-200, but I would probably go the USP-1 over the UMC. I don't really need surround, and the USP has a phono input and headphone out. (I have a pretty low end AVR and some speakers I can use as 5.1 for the odd movie or PS3, in addition to whatever I do here). My question though: would going the Emotiva (or similar) route be overkill? Could I be happier with an integrated amp like the Yamaha R-S700? I listen to the radio a reasonable amount, so that factors in. Further, if I go in this two channel direction I'm going to have to look at a DAC and potentially a DAB+. As I've got in my signature, I'm looking to power DALI Ikon 7s, which shouldn't be too difficult to drive, so the XPA-200 might be a bit over the top (but sound amazing). Any suggestions are welcome (my budget can push $1800, but lower is obviously better). ST
MantisToboggan Posted October 24, 2012 Author Posted October 24, 2012 Also, I've had a bit of a read of the following thread, but I guess I'm just after advice on whether separates are going to be overkill. They seem much more inconvenient and lack some of the features I would like (over integrateds), but if the sound is that much better then maybe they are worth while. http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/index.php?/topic/45648-recommendations-for-upgrade-power-amp-for-receiver-or-new-integrated/
Cafad Posted October 24, 2012 Posted October 24, 2012 (edited) Hi ST, the first thing I would make mention of is that an integrated will sound better than a receiver (ever wonder why the receivers always cost a few hundred less than the equivalent integrated amp when they are meant to be capable of more? This is why.) so an integrated plus a tuner would be the better buy IMO (it leaves you more flexibility in your upgrade path and you can generally pick up a decent tuner fairly cheap if you are not in a rush). There are a lot of good integrated amps available in the $800 to $1400 range to try out. Notable stand outs (again IMO) would be the Rega Brio R (which by reputation has an excellent phono stage built in) the Exposure 2010S (phono stage is optional but an extra $200 or so will still be within your budget) and the Myryad Z142 (with an MM phono stage as standard, though I have yet to hear any comments about how it performs as a phono). The mid range offers from Yamaha, Denon and Cambridge would be worth a demo as well and any of them will give you a decent reference point to compare the above units to. I have nothing against pre/power systems but I think in your price range an integrated would be the way to go. Emotiva does offer a lot of equipment for your money but that also means it will take up a lot of space as well. Edit: I wouldn't say that separates would be overkill as such, just more cumbersome to set up, more expensive to start with and more difficult to demo, an integrated is much more streamlined and removes the need for a few sets of ICs. Edited October 24, 2012 by Cafad
pelennor Posted October 24, 2012 Posted October 24, 2012 I think you're on the right track, looking more along the two channel route rather than the top of the line AV receiver approach. The one main advantage in your case of going for a UMC-1 would be that for not much more cost than the USP-1 it includes quite a reasonable DAC, which may be good enough for your purposes (I'm happy enough with mine, and have no plans on DAC upgrades at this stage). Also, it gives you more flexibility if you do change your mind later and go multichannel. However, you would sacrifice the phono input and headphone output as you've said. In terms of power amps, it's better to err on the side of overkill than underkill. The Emotiva forums are full of people who've bought a lower spec power amp, been delighted with the results, then bought a higher spec one and been even more delighted. For what you're after, I'd be thinking either XPA-200 or possibly even XPA-2 if you could stretch it. If you go for an integrated amp approach, in my opinion you're limiting your future options more. However, from what I've heard and opinions I've read, the Aussie Redgum amps are extremely capable if you're buying new. You may be able to find some integrated amp bargains around your local second hand stores, as a lot of people offload them in favour of smaller / multichannel options. Last time I looked at one, they had from memory a second hand Rotel at around $250 or so.
Juicester Posted October 24, 2012 Posted October 24, 2012 I have nothing against pre/power systems but I think in your price range an integrated would be the way to go. Emotiva does offer a lot of equipment for your money but that also means it will take up a lot of space as well. +1. Could've snagged that Leema combo for $1800 if you'd gotten in earlier. There are always good deals on SNA for amps - keep your eye out.
MantisToboggan Posted October 24, 2012 Author Posted October 24, 2012 The one main advantage in your case of going for a UMC-1 would be that for not much more cost than the USP-1 it includes quite a reasonable DAC, which may be good enough for your purposes (I'm happy enough with mine, and have no plans on DAC upgrades at this stage). Also, it gives you more flexibility if you do change your mind later and go multichannel. However, you would sacrifice the phono input and headphone output as you've said. The mid range offers from Yamaha, Denon and Cambridge would be worth a demo as well and any of them will give you a decent reference point to compare the above units to. Ok, so if I go with something like the Yamaha R-S700, I'm going to need to pick up a DAC as well. I don't know much about them. What should I be looking for? I'm off to Sydney for a day in the not too distant, so hopefully I can have a listen to some of these suggestions. If I go the Emotiva route, I think I would prefer the USP with an added DAC now, rather than the UMC with an extra two boxes. Having said that, neither of them have built in tuners, so there's another box again... It all gets very messy. Could've snagged that Leema combo for $1800 if you'd gotten in earlier. There are always good deals on SNA for amps - keep your eye out. Yeah, getting in earlier wasn't an option. I'm still in the research stage. Getting my head around what's available. Maybe next time...
Anthony John Colbert Posted October 24, 2012 Posted October 24, 2012 pre/power has the potential to sound a bit better. The preamp power supply wont be getting modulated by the poweramp power supply which will draw a whole lot more current. A high quality integrated can sound amazing though, and you dont have to worry about pre/power interconnects, extra shelves and powerpoints etc. I heard the Yammie AS-2000 and i thought it was a great sounding thing. The new Rega Brio-R is supposed to be fantastic for the money too, not as midrange-y as the old brio i.e. not as rolled off top and bottom.
Addicted to music Posted October 24, 2012 Posted October 24, 2012 Definately go the pre/power in 2 channel, there is no such thing as over kill, the more power the better Dont ever let anyone else convince you otherwise
betty boop Posted October 24, 2012 Posted October 24, 2012 Don't get caught up in separates ie pre power being better than integrated amps. Keep in mind with an integrated your only paying typically on case, one power supply, one bit of packaging, one lot of shipping and margin on one item. There are a lot of really good integrated amps and Especially if on a budget can makes lot if sense.
jel Posted October 24, 2012 Posted October 24, 2012 Something like a Peachtree iNova or iDecco will give you an integrated amp + DAC in one box. They also have pre-outs if you want to add a beefier power amp down the track. http://www.peachtreeaudio.com/
pelennor Posted October 24, 2012 Posted October 24, 2012 (edited) If I go the Emotiva route, I think I would prefer the USP with an added DAC now, rather than the UMC with an extra two boxes. Having said that, neither of them have built in tuners, so there's another box again... It all gets very messy. Not that I use it (haven't bothered to find the required antenna connection adapter), but I'm the UMC-1 has a built in tuner, if that helps any. I know multiple boxes can be a PITA, but having now gone separates, I'd never go back to an AV receiver solution on a main system again. I'm also not sure of how you're counting your boxes, unless I missed something. USP-1 + power amp + DAC + tuner = 4 boxes UMC-1 + power amp + DAC = 3 boxes (or 2 if not using DAC) Edited October 24, 2012 by pelennor
MantisToboggan Posted October 24, 2012 Author Posted October 24, 2012 Not that I use it (haven't bothered to find the required antenna connection adapter), but I'm the UMC-1 has a built in tuner, if that helps any. I know multiple boxes can be a PITA, but having now gone separates, I'd never go back to an AV receiver solution on a main system again. I'm also not sure of how you're counting your boxes, unless I missed something. USP-1 + power amp + DAC + tuner = 4 boxes UMC-1 + power amp + DAC = 3 boxes (or 2 if not using DAC) Ahh, it does too, whoops. The USP doesn't though. The extra box on the UMC would be the headphone amp...
peacewise Posted October 24, 2012 Posted October 24, 2012 Something like a Peachtree iNova or iDecco will give you an integrated amp + DAC in one box. They also have pre-outs if you want to add a beefier power amp down the track. http://www.peachtreeaudio.com/ The Peachtree Grand Integrated looks pretty cool. http://www.peachtreeaudio.com/grand-integrated.html I wonder how it compares to Nad C390dd.
MantisToboggan Posted October 24, 2012 Author Posted October 24, 2012 The Peachtree Grand Integrated looks pretty cool. http://www.peachtree...integrated.html I wonder how it compares to Nad C390dd. Haha, cool is the word. All of a sudden my sub-$2000 budget looks weak.
LuzArt Posted October 24, 2012 Posted October 24, 2012 My two cents: pre/power separates, external DAC. If you're thinking DAB+ now you will eventually get one so that can be used with a DAC. A separate pre means you could get an affordable tube pre and get into tubes, IMO that makes a huge difference.
brumby Posted October 24, 2012 Posted October 24, 2012 IMHO, the most important component in any good two channel music setup are the speakers. Your Dalis are relatively large floorstanders but they are efficient - 90.5 Db - so they should be a fairly easy load for an amp. At a top budget of $1800, you are better off with an integrated amp if you are buying new. If buying used the pre/power might come into the picture more, but it is far easier to find a good integrated in your price range. As has been pointed out, they pop up on SNA all the time. The one box, one power supply, one set of ICs argument is relevant here too. As for "limiting yourself" - we all do that and hi fi is definitely a game of diminishing returns. Yes, potentially pre/power is better, but only you can decide if the (usually much) higher price is proportional to the benefit. In the past, the upgrade path has been from integrated to pre/power. But nowadays, the quality of integrated amps is better than it's ever been and will satisfy the vast majority of music lovers. I'd say your solution is simple. Keep your eye on the SNA classifieds for a good integrated. Some of the bargains lately have been eye watering. 1
Wilco Posted October 24, 2012 Posted October 24, 2012 I'd say your solution is simple. Keep your eye on the SNA classifieds for a good integrated. Some of the bargains lately have been eye watering. DD! (Done Deal) There has been some (i.e. more than 4) integrateds on SNA that were gone within hours of listing. I mean, creek destinys for < $1.2k - come on, that will outshine any overly used pre pro anyday
maximus Posted October 24, 2012 Posted October 24, 2012 What about a NAD 3020 integrated at $ 200 used as a pre into emotiva XPA-2 300 watts into 8 ohms to get the best out of those Dali drivers. The NAD is suprisingly a good pre with the XPA-2 offering a firm hand over the Dalis' If you don't like the combo I'm sure you'd sell the 2 quite easily. This could be a real winner at the price. cheers Frank.
sfdoddsy Posted October 24, 2012 Posted October 24, 2012 Theoretically an integrated amp should sound better, as long as it has the power. No interconnects. No impedance mismatches. No power supply issues. One complete design. Also cheaper and smaller.
Hifiplus Posted October 24, 2012 Posted October 24, 2012 Well thats quite a blanket statement, compare a Gryphon Tabu with a Rotel pre/power and well I would go for the integrated, reverse the option then I would go for the pre.power - so it always depends. I have always found though a cheap pre-amp will always come second to a decent integrated. Pre-amps are always much harder to get right compared to a power amp or integrated it seems, so if you are going that route budget close to $1k second hand for a pre.
MantisToboggan Posted October 24, 2012 Author Posted October 24, 2012 My two cents: pre/power separates, external DAC. If you're thinking DAB+ now you will eventually get one so that can be used with a DAC. A separate pre means you could get an affordable tube pre and get into tubes, IMO that makes a huge difference. Ok. I didn't realise this kind of thing was an option. Given that I am looking at replacing my CD player, I could probably find one that is a DAC as well? Any recommendations? What about a NAD 3020 integrated at $ 200 used as a pre into emotiva XPA-2 300 watts into 8 ohms to get the best out of those Dali drivers. The NAD is suprisingly a good pre with the XPA-2 offering a firm hand over the Dalis' If you don't like the combo I'm sure you'd sell the 2 quite easily. This could be a real winner at the price. cheers Frank. Thanks for the suggestion, Frank. You don't think that an XPA-2 will be huge overkill? Surely saving the $200 or so and going with the XPA-200 would be sufficient?
pelennor Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 Ahh, it does too, whoops. The USP doesn't though. The extra box on the UMC would be the headphone amp... Ah, got it. You may be able to cut back one box and potentially some of the cost by getting a combined DAC and headphone amp (One of the audio-gd ones at around $400 had that, there are probably other options too).
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