AccuTidal Posted July 4, 2021 Posted July 4, 2021 17 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said: Sometimes PS does not matter. Sometimes linear PSU is not best performance. This is just cold hard fact.... it is not to do with the resolving of my system, or my hearing. Haha… No further comment! Me no keyboard warrior. Hence, can’t fight a persistent ignorance war! 1 1
Addicted to music Posted July 4, 2021 Posted July 4, 2021 Power supplies do matter, components selected for the PS also matter and it’s critical for Linear supply. Selecting different transformers, whether it’s toroidal or laminated and capability also matters so does filter capacitors…. BTW did you know that some of the problems you read here on these pages about audible hum can also be caused by worn filter caps! I’ve come across many cases and it’s not just mains supply or DC offset on mains that everyone assumes. However when the discussion between Linear Power Supply is better than switch mode supply depends on the design of both and the condition of the supply that’s been swopped out! I would never use a Linear supply for digital circuit unless I Know how stable and what noise accreditation it has undertaken…. Most respected digital products such as switches and modems will have passed certain accreditation especially for electrical interferences, so switching out the supplied PSU with a linear supply without that accreditation will make matter worst regardless what you perceived you hear! That’s just the cold hard facts…. And just when you think every electronic HiFi component needs to tick the box to have a linear supply, think again, huge advantages for going switch mode especially when the requirements are satisfied and who it was deigned…. 1
TDX Posted July 4, 2021 Posted July 4, 2021 2 hours ago, AccuMagi said: If I understand you correctly evil, the linear in renolabs switch is very well thoughts and designed with measurement. Am I right to say renolabs switch already have linear power integrated in the case? They offer a separate linear power option so that other equipment can share that power supply.
Assisi Posted July 4, 2021 Posted July 4, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, AccuMagi said: If I understand you correctly evil, the linear in renolabs switch is very well thoughts and designed with measurement My Renolabs has both Ethernet and FMC. It has from what you told me in another post, it has three LPS. One for each of the FMC, the Ethernet section and the clock . The system benefit from the Renolabs for me is excellent. I cannot envisage any reason to change the situation with an alternative LPS. The attached photo was taken at Renolabs during testing before the base was attached. John Edited July 4, 2021 by Assisi
AccuTidal Posted July 4, 2021 Posted July 4, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Assisi said: My Renolabs has both Ethernet and FMC. It has from what you told me in another post, it has three LPS. One for each of the FMC, the Ethernet section and the clock . The system benefit from the Renolabs for me is excellent. I cannot envisage any reason to change the situation with an alternative LPS. The attached photo was taken at Renolabs during testing before the base was attached. John Correct John. Those three are first order regulation. If you brave enough, there are secondary (second pass) regulations under the switch Mainboard. If you flip that over, you will see, each second regulation is powering designated component. In orher words, one is dedicated for your clock and another to power the main switch board. I can’t post detail photos here due to copyright infringement. TBH, I was impressed on how this guy further the psu with secondary regulations. I didn’t know until my itch got into me for being an engineer in practice….! Off for a good music and tunes on a wet Sunday arvo….! Enjoy your hearing pleasure while you still can, my Fellow SNAers! Edited July 4, 2021 by AccuMagi 1
davewantsmoore Posted July 4, 2021 Posted July 4, 2021 9 hours ago, stereo coffee said: No, but was a sub topic arising as can be seen , deserving comment. I also noted to stay on topic by saying The conjecture that data is corrupted due to listening tests.... seems a disappointing end to the article. We can actually know whether the data is corrupted by simply capturing and examining the data. Errors are v. rare. Interestingly the "especially bass frequencies sounded wrong", to me screams "jitter". 9 hours ago, stereo coffee said: But now entertaining you might want to further discuss ??? please proceed... In a digital -> digital system, we really don't ned to worry. At the DAC, though... it's critical. As alluded to in the paper posted.... it seems surprising that rechecking to an unrelated (to the audio) sampling rate is not used more often.
davewantsmoore Posted July 4, 2021 Posted July 4, 2021 2 hours ago, Addicted to music said: Power supplies do matter Indeed they do..... I should have said (meant to say) "sometimes change of PS doesn't matter". (ie. there is no reason/purpose to change the PS design/performance). It all depends very much on system design/layout .... what is connected to what/how.... and what is sensitive to what. It's ironic (is that the right word) that the "everything is always sensitive to everything else" .... and "linear supply is always the best solution" ..... isn't seen as "ignorance". 2 hours ago, Addicted to music said: I would never use a Linear supply for digital circuit unless I Know how stable and what noise accreditation it has undertaken…. Most respected digital products such as switches and modems will have passed certain accreditation especially for electrical interferences, so switching out the supplied PSU with a linear supply without that accreditation will make matter worst regardless what you perceived you hear! That’s just the cold hard facts…. Yes.... the design of the "best" PS for digital circuit is complex, and quite specific to the circuit. It isn't about magic components, or overbuilding, etc. etc..... as much as it is about design. 2 hours ago, Addicted to music said: Manley video "In 2012, I hired Bruno Putzeys......"
MattyW Posted July 4, 2021 Author Posted July 4, 2021 (edited) On 02/07/2021 at 7:05 PM, evil c said: @MattyW no reason to doubt it, as I'm currently running 3 separate LPSUs for my TT, Lumin streamer and Roon core server. (Sbooster/ Gieseler Kraftwerk) Made a noticeable difference in improvement, in fact I've pondered trying another with my Renolabs network switch! Ah, damn you Clive. The Renolabs switch is now on my to buy list. Built in LPS and OCXO clock? That's a quality unit for sure. When we reno the house and get some cabling installed I think I need one of these. For now though a cheapy LPS on my even cheaper TP-LINK switch will do. Edited July 4, 2021 by MattyW 1
jelt2359 Posted July 7, 2021 Posted July 7, 2021 It makes no sense, but little in Audio does. Changing PSU at the router and modems help. Getting a separate modem, router and switch (rather than all-in-one) helps. Turning off wifi helps. Creating a separate network just for your hifi helps Even changing your ethernet cable from modem to router helps. What I think is happening is 1) there is a lot of noise being transferred not just via the ethernet cables to your setup, but SMPSes in general create noise in your house 2) wifi signals affects electronics somehow 3) the more complex and busy your network, the more a lot of random network signals are being sent to your server, increasing load and noise. This btw is also why Roon sounds worse to me than something like HQP- Roon is ALWAYS 'listening' and pinging back to its own server to check for valid licenses, updates, and so on. It's not something I would go crazy about, but similar to how some people don't believe in after market cables or power cords, if you can hear the difference it's hard to miss from there on out. 4
jelt2359 Posted July 7, 2021 Posted July 7, 2021 BTW, one of the best places I've found to use a good ethernet cable is actually between my Macbook (which I use to control the music player) and the switch. I think that's where you're transferring the most noise into the switch. I realise all this is controversial, and there is no one-size-fits all. Often just have to try it yourself to hear the difference.
MattyW Posted July 7, 2021 Author Posted July 7, 2021 Well, just placed an order for a Renolabs Ultimate Audio Switch..... Should be a nice improvement and the built in LPS and OCXO clock is nice. It means the Firewall and TP-Link Deco X60 will get their own dedicated LPS rather than sharing them. Win win. There's a 200W 24v 8.3A LPS on the way I plan to pair with the HDPLEX 400W DC-DC ATX adapter. Hopefully that will have sufficient grunt for my file server. 2
jelt2359 Posted July 7, 2021 Posted July 7, 2021 Congrats. Can I suggest you try other players apart from Roon- you may find a nice uptick in sound too. Let's just say Roon does many things (which is why I still have and use a lifetime license), but sound quality is not one of their key focuses. You may also want to try this adaptor: https://taikoaudio.com/taiko-2020/product/taiko-audio-dc-dc-atx/
MattyW Posted July 7, 2021 Author Posted July 7, 2021 Scary pricing that. I think I'll stick with the HDPLEX.... I think my problem is I don't know how it works..... Surely it can't turn the output from my 200W LPS into the equivalent of a 400W power supply? Still, by my calculations my system should draw less than 300W at full load.
TDX Posted July 7, 2021 Posted July 7, 2021 3 hours ago, MattyW said: Well, just placed an order for a Renolabs Ultimate Audio Switch..... Should be a nice improvement and the built in LPS and OCXO clock is nice. It means the Firewall and TP-Link Deco X60 will get their own dedicated LPS rather than sharing them. Win win. There's a 200W 24v 8.3A LPS on the way I plan to pair with the HDPLEX 400W DC-DC ATX adapter. Hopefully that will have sufficient grunt for my file server. You will be very happy. 1
MattyW Posted July 13, 2021 Author Posted July 13, 2021 Well, I've separate LPS on all my networking gear now all with some nice improvements. Just waiting on LPS for my media PC and server at this stage. The HDPLEX 400W DC-DC adapter is at the post office so I'll likely pick that up in the next few days. Won't do much until I receive the LPS I've coming from China for it though.
agisthos Posted July 13, 2021 Posted July 13, 2021 I found the Uptone JS-2 LPS was substantially better than the HDPlex and TeddyPardo LPS. It was also over twice the price of either. But the Uptone has 2x independently adjustable, separately regulated outputs; so can power two different devices. 5v 7v 9v or 12v. The JS-2 also has things you wont find is most competing cheaper LPS; Schottky diodes, a choke filter input transformer, and a high quality custom R-Core transformer instead of a torroid. I would highly suggest anyone looking for an endgame LPS (in reasonable money terms) to check this product out. https://uptoneaudio.com/products/js-2-linear-power-supply 1
MattyW Posted July 13, 2021 Author Posted July 13, 2021 (edited) @agisthos I'll be using this HDPLEX DC-DC converter with my file server. Waiting on a Chinese 200W LPS to power it. If I could source a 400W LPS at a reasonable price I'd get that instead though hopefully 200W (24V 8.3A) is sufficient. At least there's no separate video card so that will reduce power requirements somewhat. Pretty sure Uptone don't produce any LPS of 200W or above. That's mainly the province of HDPLEX, TERADAK etc. I don't want to pay TERADAK prices though so will be trying one off Aliexpress first with a silver umbilical and Oyaide plugs. Have to use a 2.1 to 7.5mm adapter to use with this kit sadly . I wish HDPLEX used something more standard like a 2.1 or 2.5mm DC jack Edited July 13, 2021 by MattyW
AccuTidal Posted July 13, 2021 Posted July 13, 2021 4 hours ago, agisthos said: I found the Uptone JS-2 LPS was substantially better than the HDPlex and TeddyPardo LPS. It was also over twice the price of either. But the Uptone has 2x independently adjustable, separately regulated outputs; so can power two different devices. 5v 7v 9v or 12v. The JS-2 also has things you wont find is most competing cheaper LPS; Schottky diodes, a choke filter input transformer, and a high quality custom R-Core transformer instead of a torroid. I would highly suggest anyone looking for an endgame LPS (in reasonable money terms) to check this product out. https://uptoneaudio.com/products/js-2-linear-power-supply Yes, JS-2 was ok 10 years ago. This innovation has not changed nor further developed by the vendor. For what it costs, there are better solutions out there for the same cost. I did modified the JS-2 further in 2013. SQ is very very noticeably on many levels above the factory standard. 1
MattyW Posted July 13, 2021 Author Posted July 13, 2021 I imagine they'd be pretty spectacular with those Hashimoto transformers in there. My only exposure to Hashimoto were the HM-3 and HM-7 transformers for moving coil cartridges. The HM-7 are by far and away the best I've experienced.
AccuTidal Posted July 14, 2021 Posted July 14, 2021 (edited) 14 hours ago, MattyW said: I imagine they'd be pretty spectacular with those Hashimoto transformers in there. My only exposure to Hashimoto were the HM-3 and HM-7 transformers for moving coil cartridges. The HM-7 are by far and away the best I've experienced. Hashimoto was the improvements. Brought digital grains to minimal and brought forward the naturalness of the sound to realism. As the result, all my CA are Hashimoto powered and filtering. The idea was from Tasso here in Perth. Who was funding the project at time. Note - JS2 will not be able to power any HDPlex Pico. Not enough juice to do so nor voltage is up to specs. These days, I build LPS Units for these pico for SNA's friends around Australia. I do not do it as business, rather doing as for my personal mental therapy. Alternatively, I can provide advices with schematic if anyone is handy with soldering. Edited July 14, 2021 by AccuMagi Photo upload 1 1
MattyW Posted July 14, 2021 Author Posted July 14, 2021 7 hours ago, AccuMagi said: Hashimoto was the improvements. Brought digital grains to minimal and brought forward the naturalness of the sound to realism. As the result, all my CA are Hashimoto powered and filtering. The idea was from Tasso here in Perth. Who was funding the project at time. Note - JS2 will not be able to power any HDPlex Pico. Not enough juice to do so nor voltage is up to specs. These days, I build LPS Units for these pico for SNA's friends around Australia. I do not do it as business, rather doing as for my personal mental therapy. Alternatively, I can provide advices with schematic if anyone is handy with soldering. Unfortunately building one is way beyond my capabilities. Would probably electrocute myself 2
agisthos Posted July 14, 2021 Posted July 14, 2021 On 7/4/2021 at 11:53 AM, Assisi said: My Renolabs has both Ethernet and FMC. It has from what you told me in another post, it has three LPS. One for each of the FMC, the Ethernet section and the clock . The system benefit from the Renolabs for me is excellent. I cannot envisage any reason to change the situation with an alternative LPS. The attached photo was taken at Renolabs during testing before the base was attached. John That red and green hookup wire in the centre of the unit.... did you put that in yourself? Or does Reno labs build it like that? That looks like VH Audio's foamed teflon (AirLok) OCC hookup wire. The best I have ever used when modding equipment internally.
Assisi Posted July 14, 2021 Posted July 14, 2021 18 minutes ago, agisthos said: That red and green hookup wire in the centre of the unit.... did you put that in yourself? Or does Reno labs build it like that? That looks like VH Audio's foamed teflon (AirLok) OCC hookup wire. The best I have ever used when modding equipment internally. The photo of the Renolabs was taken when it was being tested just before it was packed up and sent to me. I have never had a look inside. I would have no idea as to how to mod something. What is in it was how it was manufactured. Attention to detail. As a couple of other posters have commented the Renolabs switches have a very good outcome especially when considered as to the price. John
agisthos Posted July 14, 2021 Posted July 14, 2021 12 minutes ago, Assisi said: The photo of the Renolabs was taken when it was being tested just before it was packed up and sent to me. I have never had a look inside. I would have no idea as to how to mod something. What is in it was how it was manufactured. Attention to detail. As a couple of other posters have commented the Renolabs switches have a very good outcome especially when considered as to the price. John To me this shows Renolabs knows what they are doing - they pay attention to the voicing of even little things like hookup wire. 1
agisthos Posted July 14, 2021 Posted July 14, 2021 11 hours ago, AccuMagi said: Yes, JS-2 was ok 10 years ago. This innovation has not changed nor further developed by the vendor. For what it costs, there are better solutions out there for the same cost. I did modified the JS-2 further in 2013. SQ is very very noticeably on many levels above the factory standard. Yes the JS-2 was state of the art in 2015 when I purchased it, and no doubt time has moved on. I am interested in the Farad Supecapacitor LPS. But many of the competing LPS products out there are just using good LT regulators and a bank of caps and a torroid. This is obviously way better than any SMPS, but it nothing special and in-fact will not perform as well as the JS-2. And not everyone can make a custom LPS built like you do, they want to know what the available retail options are.
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