Andythiing Posted August 24, 2021 Posted August 24, 2021 I enjoyed watching this - and as a technical Luddite found it enlightening - if he is talking sense? views welcomed 3
muon* Posted August 24, 2021 Posted August 24, 2021 In my experience they do. Although in some cases you may want those wire wound resistors and not a MOX, but I generally agree in the area of inductors, caps and wire and connectors too. 1
davewantsmoore Posted August 24, 2021 Posted August 24, 2021 1 hour ago, Andythiing said: I enjoyed watching this - and as a technical Luddite found it enlightening - if he is talking sense? For speaker crossovers, and connectors (ie. parts taking speaker voltage and currents) .... Yes, absolutely. I don't think (m)any are up to it ... which is why people say they hear a difference between $600 capacitor A.... and $600 capacitor B. So ?!? ..... get rid of them all, and use "active crossovers", and wire amplifiers directly to speaker drivers. 1
rockeater Posted August 24, 2021 Posted August 24, 2021 Firstly, the question should be not "do parts matter" but "do parts in speaker crossover matter?", for he is talking only about that. But even that question is not really answered by him, for he is mainly talking about different technologies, at least in the first half. It is like asking do different engines in cars matter and then starting to compare steam engines from 1895, with diesel ones, and then current fuel injected petrol engines. Of course the differences will be huge. And further, it all depends on application. Small 1.3 l one is great if you are after fuel economy but not so great if you put it in a truck. Over-engineering a crossover in a $500 bookshelf speaker and spending $1000 on parts is poor design choice, unless of course one has sentimental attachment to it, and wants to squeeze from it everything that can be squeezed. Of course parts matter. The real question is to what degree and is it worth pursuing the ever diminishing gains. Then there are usual engineering dilemmas, for engineering is a balancing act between two or more opposing considerations. What matters the most in any technical area is engineering and whereas you can put a lipstick on a pig, a $400 amps from mid 80s, even when full of Black Gates and with R-core transformers will still only ever graduate to being $500 amp from the 80s. It will never be a Gryphon or Nemo. That is why companies like Meridian, Electrocompaniet, Naim, Accuphase, Luxman or Quad are still there and their products gained respect when there was not a single exotic part in them (maybe with exception of Single Crown DAC ICs in Naim), and even the output connectors were not gold plated. Naim still uses common garden DIN 5 pin plugs on their outputs for it is not about the most expensive conglomerate of parts but about circuit design, what they call an artwork (circuit layout on the board), set out of parts within cabinet, what the cabinet is made from, its noise immunity etc. This is what really matters. Gains always can be made but their real impact is mostly dependent on... whether you believe, that there will be an impact. This video is largely an advertorial for this guy's business and it is designed to show that he knows, what he is talking about and he sure does. 4
muon* Posted August 24, 2021 Posted August 24, 2021 Anyone with any commercial interest gets accused of sprouting marketing propaganda, even if they are not. 2
rockeater Posted August 24, 2021 Posted August 24, 2021 6 hours ago, muon* said: Anyone with any commercial interest gets accused of sprouting marketing propaganda, even if they are not. This is not what I said. I merely said that he is advertising himself. There is nothing wrong with that and I myself do it all the time. I uploaded around 120 videos to my uTube channel doing just that. Letting people know that when they have a faulty CD player they want to get rid off, they can sell it to me and that occasionally, I fix them for some customers, if the player is interesting enough. For that, one needs to show that you know a bit about the subject and this is what he has done (and what I do). I just did not see this video as a serious discussion of the merits of upgrades. Maybe there is some value there as a basic tutorial for total novices to audio but then they will be misled by the suggestion that speakers' sound is mainly depended on crossovers and It is not. It is the enclosures and drivers that are main factors, with crossovers being the important factor, but only third on the list. In all fairness, I did not watch it past maybe 2/3 of the video, for I thought there would not be much there that I did not know and wanted to, so I might be wrong in my assumptions.
muon* Posted August 24, 2021 Posted August 24, 2021 Just now, rockeater said: This is not what I said It's a general statement that happens all the time that I have observed while on forums for the last 15 years, it was not directed at you personally, although your statement made me think about it. Anyway, IMO while the circuits and layouts matter so do the parts matter, more evident in XO's and tube gear and simpler SS circuits, but they matter to some extent in all gear. Different caps can sound slightly or hugely different from one another depending on what is being compared, same but to a lesser extent resistors, and yeah, even wire. All IMO 3
Martykt Posted August 24, 2021 Posted August 24, 2021 16 hours ago, Andythiing said: I enjoyed watching this - and as a technical Luddite found it enlightening - if he is talking sense? views welcomed This guy really knows his stuff. A lot of useful information in there. 2
Mrkropotkin Posted August 24, 2021 Posted August 24, 2021 I can tell you what it's like "definitively" to be me but even then some will disagree................................ 1 1
Martykt Posted August 24, 2021 Posted August 24, 2021 @Andythiing Not speaker crossovers but I am about to replace the Poly capacitors in my signal path in my preamp and phono stage with Dueland Cast and Miflex KPCU (the expensive caps in the video) so soon I should be able to tell you just how much difference they make. I can already verify that yes the size difference shown in the video are accurate... the Miflex and Dueland are massive compared to the original JB poly caps !! Fitting them is looking like it will be possible but definitely a bit of a challenge... 4
Addicted to music Posted September 9, 2021 Posted September 9, 2021 On 25/08/2021 at 7:29 AM, Martykt said: @Andythiing Not speaker crossovers but I am about to replace the Poly capacitors in my signal path in my preamp and phono stage with Dueland Cast and Miflex KPCU (the expensive caps in the video) so soon I should be able to tell you just how much difference they make. I can already verify that yes the size difference shown in the video are accurate... the Miflex and Dueland are massive compared to the original JB poly caps !! Fitting them is looking like it will be possible but definitely a bit of a challenge... Who saids you need to fit them inside the cabinet or on the pcb 1
Martykt Posted September 9, 2021 Posted September 9, 2021 35 minutes ago, Addicted to music said: Who saids you need to fit them inside the cabinet or on the pcb Well I suppose if I wanted to come across as a real DIYer I should have them hanging off the side with alligator clips... !! 1
LogicprObe Posted September 9, 2021 Posted September 9, 2021 27 minutes ago, Martykt said: Well I suppose if I wanted to come across as a real DIYer I should have them hanging off the side with alligator clips... !! The sound will change after you get rid of the alligators! 1
Martykt Posted September 9, 2021 Posted September 9, 2021 10 minutes ago, LogicprObe said: The sound will change after you get rid of the alligators! Remove the alligator clips... ?? What kind of self-respecting DIYer would do that... 1
MattyW Posted September 9, 2021 Posted September 9, 2021 (edited) Yeah, those Duelund will sound beautiful..... I've sort of gone off the Miflex KPCU though.... Much prefer Jupiter Copper Foil And yes, parts DO make a difference..... NO not everyone seems able to hear it so mileage can vary. I also find the complexity of the circuit plays a part. Simple circuits seem to respond extremely well to quality parts where the difference can be lost with a more complicated circuit. Due to this I seek out well performing simple circuits.... My Pass Aleph-M is a perfect example Edited September 9, 2021 by MattyW 1
davewantsmoore Posted September 9, 2021 Posted September 9, 2021 On 25/08/2021 at 1:57 AM, rockeater said: It is the enclosures and drivers that are main factors, with crossovers being the important factor, but only third on the list. I don't agree with this. Assuming that cheaper drivers are used within their limits of acceptable non-linear distortion..... and that we are not changing the shape of the cabinet ..... then the biggest factor in the speaker sound is the frequency response, which is dictated by the driver filters. Almost always in the videos GR research is making a substantial change to the frequency response of the speaker .... which is going to improve the sound a lot. Without making the blanket claim that parts quality is always irrelevant..... above is the perfect example of the "value (not $) of the parts" that makes the difference (ie. the amount of resistance, capacitance, or inductance... and their specific combination) ..... as opposed to the "quality". It is just difficult to impress that on most people who watch videos like that and hear "better caps sound better" and nod and say "of course they do".
Martykt Posted September 9, 2021 Posted September 9, 2021 5 minutes ago, MattyW said: Yeah, those Duelund will sound beautiful..... I've sort of gone off the Miflex KPCU though.... Much prefer Jupiter Copper Foil And yes, parts DO make a difference..... NO not everyone seems able to hear it so mileage can vary. I also find the complexity of the circuit plays a part. Simple circuits seem to respond extremely well to quality parts where the difference can be lost with a more complicated circuit. Due to this I seek out well performing simple circuits.... My Pass Aleph-M is a perfect example Going the burn in process at the moment with the Duelund. Yes the swap definitely has made a difference and quite a large one compared to the JB caps. So far they have a very organic tone and texture which is what I'm wanting and the slight glare and slight bump to the upper mids/lower highs is gone. From new though the frequency extension just hasn't been there with rolled off bass and treble and not much dynamics. They are also a fair bit quieter as far as gain goes which I have been told is a sign that they still need more hours. They now have about 50 hours on them (using a dodgy automatic turntable with cheap cart) and they have opened up a bit and the dynamics have improved slightly so I guess time will tell if they come good with extra hours or are just wrong for my circuit. Hopefully they'll work out but it is quite possible I may have to try different options before I find the right Capacitors. My preamp has quite a lot of capacitors in the signal path so the Miflex fit the bill as far as cost goes and what I'm wanting to achieve.
Addicted to music Posted September 9, 2021 Posted September 9, 2021 10 hours ago, Martykt said: Hmmm... Be interested in measured slew rate DV/DT and ESR on those caps…
Addicted to music Posted September 9, 2021 Posted September 9, 2021 2 minutes ago, Martykt said: Going the burn in process at the moment with the Duelund. Yes the swap definitely has made a difference and quite a large one compared to the JB caps. So far they have a very organic tone and texture which is what I'm wanting and the slight glare and slight bump to the upper mids/lower highs is gone. From new though the frequency extension just hasn't been there with rolled off bass and treble and not much dynamics. They are also a fair bit quieter as far as gain goes which I have been told is a sign that they still need more hours. They now have about 50 hours on them (using a dodgy automatic turntable with cheap cart) and they have opened up a bit and the dynamics have improved slightly so I guess time will tell if they come good with extra hours or are just wrong for my circuit. Hopefully they'll work out but it is quite possible I may have to try different options before I find the right Capacitors. My preamp has quite a lot of capacitors in the signal path so the Miflex fit the bill as far as cost goes and what I'm wanting to achieve. If there wasn’t a difference you’d want your money back wouldn’t ya?
Martykt Posted September 9, 2021 Posted September 9, 2021 (edited) I suppose I should show the mod !! From To ....sorry no alligator clips !! Edited September 9, 2021 by Martykt 3
Martykt Posted September 9, 2021 Posted September 9, 2021 4 minutes ago, Addicted to music said: Be interested in measured slew rate DV/DT and ESR on those caps… I did measure the capacitance just to make sure that they were in tolerance and they both measured very similar to each other and close to their 1uf rating.
muon* Posted September 9, 2021 Posted September 9, 2021 ZB once said he measured some parameters of Duelund caps and found them better than others in some measurement/s. This was some time ago so I can't recall what measurements they were.
Martykt Posted September 9, 2021 Posted September 9, 2021 7 minutes ago, Addicted to music said: If there wasn’t a difference you’d want your money back wouldn’t ya? Well how can I say this... I imagine you would be quite upset if they sounded exactly like a $2 poly cap !!
Addicted to music Posted September 9, 2021 Posted September 9, 2021 2 minutes ago, Martykt said: Well how can I say this... I imagine you would be quite upset if they sounded exactly like a $2 poly cap !! I’d get a refund for those $2 poly 1
Recommended Posts