Denafrips Owners & Discussion Thread

[Niktech]

4 hours ago, eman said:

Post says he's been told to wait for it to 'burn in '. As he rightly says the hardware hasn't changed so what could 'burn in '?

Yeah, that is confusing and rather strange.

The comments below his post did not inspire confidence in the update. 
 

I’ll wait a week or two and then perhaps revisit the idea of updating the firmware.

Edited April 2, 2023 by Niktech

[Niktech]

4 hours ago, NBPk402 said:

I just went to order the new board and saw this at the bottom of the page..."

NOTE:

All new DACs shipped since April 2020 already comes with the latest DSP. You do not need to purchase this separately. ". 

 

Does this mean if you purchased after April 2020 that you already have the updated firmware?

No, it just means that although the Faceplate of the DAC says Pontus, with the new DSP installed it is a Pontus II.

 

The Pontus II faceplates didn’t appear until Jan-Feb 2021 IIRC.

[thimmy118]

6 hours ago, Niktech said:

Yeah, that is confusing and rather strange.

The comments below his post did not inspire confidence in the update. 
 

I’ll wait a week or two and then perhaps revisit the idea of updating the firmware.

I got the same message from Vinshine asking me to allow some burn in time. I could be wrong but I think the burn in time make sense to my simple mind. The new instructions from the update may be using a different. albeit a small, part of the FPGA chip and/or different parts of the DSP board that may never been used under the previous firmware. Hence consistent electron/electrical flow over a period (burn in) to these unused part may change the sound signature. I am not en electronic engineer; just my two cents worth.

 

Re the 'failed message', Vinshine will need to correct this in their firmware. As long as the DAC is working, I have no complains and have not lost any confidence in their product or their support as yet.

 

On with my listening session.  

[Niktech]

From the Denafrips forum:

 

“let the Pontus II burn in for a while as they [Vinshine Audio] said this FW “rewired” the logic gates of the FGPA. So, it needs some burn in to optimize the sound reproduction.”

 

Reports are still coming on the Denafrips page of owners unhappy with the upgrade.

 

Anyway,  I’m very happy with how the music sounds through my Pontus II now and  really don’t feel the need to upgrade the Firmware.

Edited April 3, 2023 by Niktech

[thimmy118]

I had a long listening session yesterday (a hard job for a retiree) and have personally noticed differences from my modest system consisting of a Cyrus CD transport, Project streamer transport, Hermes to Pontus 2 via I2S, Audia Flight int amp and Dynaudio speakers. Power cables are Isotek Premier, WE speaker cables, Analysis Plus HDMI I2S and Coax digital, and Audio Sensibility XLR and USB cables. I tested the DAC with a variety of my favourite jazz and classical music from CDs , downloads and high res Apple Music. I have not connected any of the input directly to the DAC because I have been using the Hermes DDC for the last 4 months and before that an Iris DDC for 12 months. Therefore, I don't have a reference  point for a direct DAC input comparison. 

 

Here goes:

- At the very beginning, I heard overwhelming and 'floppy' bass and had to adjust volume and frequency cut-off level on my sub down a notch. After several hours, I adjusted the volume up a notch but left the frequency cut-off alone. The bass is now very articulate with 'stronger' and more obvious' mid bass but also better extension in the lower bass. No floppiness at all. I even heard mid bass from a track that I have not heard or has not been that obvious before. Also bass line from bottom to mid is much easier to follow and hearing better texture overall which makes double bass sound real. 

- Improvement in centre image focus. Placement of instruments within the soundstage has improved. I had previously experienced a very slight sibilance from female voices on my right channel but this has now completely disappeared.

- Timbre/tone of instruments is slightly 'richer'.

- Dynamic range improved slightly perhaps due to a quieter background. It also gives a sensation that the music is louder. 

- Slightly stronger instrument decay and attack.

- Soundstage is slightly wider.

- Top end very slightly 'brighter' and a bit obvious, which suits my system well but it is never harsh, overwhelming and remains as smooth as before. 

- Airiness and sound staging - no discernible change but mid range has more detail as I am hearing instruments that I have not heard or were not that obvious to me previously. It is not a 'walk around sound stage' that you can get from a more expensive and well matched system but instrument separation within the sound stage is much better. No change in sound stage layering.

- There is improvement in the texture of voices. Breathing, movement of the lips and change in tonal characteristic of voices that makes it sound real are more obvious. I used to hear this from my Naim NDX but not in the Pontus 2, which was a disappointment but glad that it is there in the updated Pontus.

- Acoustic instruments such as guitars, violins and cellos have more body and texture and sounded more real.

Overall, I am hearing more of the music in a very musical way.

 

Would I recommend the update - yes, definitely. I can hear differences and for the better, however we all have individual preferences on how we like our equipment to sound and the end result of the update should be something that will give you hours of joy. My advice is to give it a try and perform a roll-back if it does not suit your taste but make sure you have the old version of the firmware available. Remember, you only live once.

 

(Your update may yield different results as there are so many factors at play including but not limited to cables, equipment, speaker placements, room acoustics, personal sound preferences  etc.)

[Niktech]

Which version of the firmware did you upgrade your Pontus II with? There seems to a distinction between the two firmwares that have been made available? One sounds good the other not.

[thimmy118]

4 minutes ago, Niktech said:

Which version of the firmware did you upgrade your Pontus II with? There seems to a distinction between the two firmwares that have been made available? One sounds good the other not.

Good point. It is the version that Vinshine sent for my EP4CE22F17C8N Korean made FPGA chip. The Software is DENAFRIPS USB Audio V3.12 | P22F3.3. I have seen others on the net with different chip number that is made in Malaysia. There could well be others that are made somewhere else. Perhaps there is a slight difference in the FPGA chip logic hence the need to provide photo of the FPGA model  to ensure Vinshine provide the correct SW version; there could have made minor modifications to the FPGA chips, which in reality is a normal thing that manufacturers do as they change the specs of their equipment over time. One of the ways to objectively find out why there is a discrepancy in sound performance is to perform a survey gathering information on the chip model and link this to the owner's opinion on the sound after the update.

 

They did a survey on FB (available on the link you provided) and it shows 47% has no regret, 45% has not done it yet, 4% has mixed feeling and 5% has regret after updating the software.

[nowallet]

Of course one of the screws is stripped in the underside of my Ares 2. Is the upgrade worth the potential destruction?

[eman]

This business of two or more different chips, different manufactures, making sure to somehow have a rollback leading to an almost 50/50 level of perceived improvement is where I lose interest.

 

Far too complex.

[GregWormald]

On 04/04/2023 at 5:53 PM, thimmy118 said:

Good point. It is the version that Vinshine sent for my EP4CE22F17C8N Korean made FPGA chip. The Software is DENAFRIPS USB Audio V3.12 | P22F3.3. 

<snip>

I did mine this afternoon and when checking that it had been done, the software numbers were different from those provided in the directions. They do match what you have above (whew—relief!) so I guess I'll connect it all up and run it in for a while.

 

I've been enjoying the upgrades to my analog source exclusively for weeks now so I'm not sure I'll be able to discern a difference in the short term. My long-term satisfaction is really my main assessment tool but I'll give it go. 

[thimmy118]

Glad it went ok with your update. I hope you like the update.

 

I had another listening session today and hearing lots more differences including nuances in electric bass guitar, vibrato from voices at the end of notes, enveloping sound from my speakers perhaps from the wider sound stage and improved sense of reverb and decay from musical instruments.

 

 

 

[thimmy118]

Hey @Gregwormald, Please check the files which were given to you for the update. It should have the following main files if you are running a Mac - 'denafrips_v3.12.0_7910c80.fmw', 'PONTUS_P22F3.3.cfg' and 'PONTUS-EP4CE22F-20230207-release3.3.fmc'. I think the third file mentioned here could be chip specific as it partially matches my chip number EP4CE22F17C8N. 

 

Keen to hear your thoughts on the sound post update.

[GregWormald]

Yup, those are the files I got, and I'm now sure everything is OK. The issue I had was that my resulting DAC identity differed from the one in Alvin's computer screenshots. (It was identical to yours though.)

 

I ran the DAC and the source (but not the pre) about 20 hours and then put on one of my favourite albums—Meshell Ndegeocello, Peace Beyond Passion—where bass depth and delineation, the impact of drum hits, and the ability to portray the female voice are all vitally important. When these (as well as other things of course) are done well by a system my critical facilities disappear and I'm left with enjoyment. I've heard other systems where that has not been the case.

 

I'm pretty sure the bass lines were clearer, the drum hits more like the analog ones I love, and her voice was controlling me more than previously. Of course I can't guarantee any of that, as beyond three tracks where I focussed on the reproduction at the beginning, the rest of my time I was enjoying without analysis.

 

So far I'm very happy with the upgrade.

[Niktech]

7 minutes ago, GregWormald said:

Yup, those are the files I got, and I'm now sure everything is OK. The issue I had was that my resulting DAC identity differed from the one in Alvin's computer screenshots. (It was identical to yours though.)

 

I ran the DAC and the source (but not the pre) about 20 hours and then put on one of my favourite albums—Meshell Ndegeocello, Peace Beyond Passion—where bass depth and delineation, the impact of drum hits, and the ability to portray the female voice are all vitally important. When these (as well as other things of course) are done well by a system my critical facilities disappear and I'm left with enjoyment. I've heard other systems where that has not been the case.

 

I'm pretty sure the bass lines were clearer, the drum hits more like the analog ones I love, and her voice was controlling me more than previously. Of course I can't guarantee any of that, as beyond three tracks where I focussed on the reproduction at the beginning, the rest of my time I was enjoying without analysis.

 

So far I'm very happy with the upgrade.

Great to hear you are happy with the firmware upgrade. I’m still on the fence about upgrading as I’ve been happy with the sound since since October 2020

Edited April 6, 2023 by Niktech

[JPete9]

And this is how product manufacturers and distributors should all behave. Also sharing updated for all models they can support. Its brilliant.

 

Quote

FAQ: I bought the DAC used and/or from the grey market. Will I be entitled for the Firmware Update?

We understand some of you may have purchased the DAC used and/or from the grey market (sadly). Vinshine Audio is willing to extend our goodwill support to you. We are good people afterall. Please enter 'Used' or 'Grey' in the Order Number.

 

[SearchingForTheSound]

@thimmy118 I also have the pontus ii and the hermes and right after the update I experienced the exact same changes in sound. The mids and highs were more detailed but the bass was bloated and I too turned my sub down. Also, complex pieces sounded congested at times. I went to bed that night (last Saturday and only six or seven hours after I updated) and I wasn’t worried because Alvin said it could take five to ten days to break in. I didn’t listen to my system again until Friday night. I set up my pontus the same way before the update (OS, phase, and fast). When I started listening, I could tell the bass was much tighter and detail had greatly improved. At this setting, I enjoyed the increase in detail and expanded soundstage, but I felt like the warm feeling and magic was gone. So, after a couple of hours I changed the OS setting to NOS and after a few minutes (maybe 10-15) the warmth and magic was back. The detail, expanded soundstage, and lower noise floor all remained but the Denafrits signature sound was back and improved. 
 

I'm going to listen again tonight and change the setting from fast to slow to find out if I can hear a difference. I’m very satisfied with the update and believe it will continue to improve. I have a very relaxed system to begin with, so additional detail, tighter bass, and lower noise floor will not make it too bright or fatiguing. I think Alvin and team spent a lot of time testing this upgrade for each model and they would not release them  if he and Denafrits were not confident in the outcome. 
 

 

[thimmy118]

2 minutes ago, SearchingForTheSound said:

@thimmy118 I also have the pontus ii and the hermes and right after the update I experienced the exact same changes in sound. The mids and highs were more detailed but the bass was bloated and I too turned my sub down. Also, complex pieces sounded congested at times. I went to bed that night (last Saturday and only six or seven hours after I updated) and I wasn’t worried because Alvin said it could take five to ten days to break in. I didn’t listen to my system again until Friday night. I set up my pontus the same way before the update (OS, phase, and fast). When I started listening, I could tell the bass was much tighter and detail had greatly improved. At this setting, I enjoyed the increase in detail and expanded soundstage, but I felt like the warm feeling and magic was gone. So, after a couple of hours I changed the OS setting to NOS and after a few minutes (maybe 10-15) the warmth and magic was back. The detail, expanded soundstage, and lower noise floor all remained but the Denafrits signature sound was back and improved. 
 

I'm going to listen again tonight and change the setting from fast to slow to find out if I can hear a difference. I’m very satisfied with the update and believe it will continue to improve. I have a very relaxed system to begin with, so additional detail, tighter bass, and lower noise floor will not make it too bright or fatiguing. I think Alvin and team spent a lot of time testing this upgrade for each model and they would not release them  if he and Denafrits were not confident in the outcome. 
 

 

Great to hear you are hearing the same improvements. I will play around with the NOS/OS and Phase as I have left these alone for now. 5 to 10 days is a long break-in time for a chip but I will persevere. Yes tighter (or less?) bass but details abound with a much wider soundstage. Love the sound of human voices - natural, nuanced and believable. Please keep us updated.

[SearchingForTheSound]

@thimmy118 last night was a great session. I was able to listen for about three hours. I didn’t change any of the settings because it sounded so good I just wanted to enjoy the music. I really like the NOS mode since I updated the firmware. My FPGA chip model is EP4CE6F which is different than yours(I think). Maybe that’s why the NOS mode sounds great in my setup. I do believe the bass is tighter but it may be a little lighter than it was with the old firmware.
 

My system sounded so smooth, almost silk like. Voices were very detailed without harshness or unnatural sounding. The song Change by Big Thief sounded like the band was in my basement. I’m very happy with the new software and have no plans to request the old firmware. I’m glad you are also enjoying the update. Keep me updated.  . @thimmy118 I also have the pontus ii and the hermes and right after the update I experienced the exact same changes in sound. The mids and highs were more detailed but the bass was bloated and I too turned my sub down. Also, complex pieces sounded congested at times. I went to bed that night (last Saturday and only six or seven hours after I updated) and I wasn’t worried because Alvin said it could take five to ten days to break in. I didn’t listen to my system again until Friday night. I set up my pontus the same way before the update (OS, phase, and fast). When I started listening, I could tell the bass was much tighter and detail had greatly improved. At this setting, I enjoyed the increase in detail and expanded soundstage, but I felt like the warm feeling and magic was gone. So, after a couple of hours I changed the OS setting to NOS and after a few minutes (maybe 10-15) the warmth and magic was back. The detail, expanded soundstage, and lower noise floor all remained but the Denafrits signature sound was back and improved. 

I'm going to listen again tonight and change the setting from fast to slow to find out if I can hear a difference. I’m very satisfied with the update and believe it will continue to improve. I have a very relaxed system to begin with, so additional detail, tighter bass, and lower noise floor will not make it too bright or fatiguing. I think Alvin and team spent a lot of time testing this upgrade for each model and they would not release them  if he and Denafrits were not confident in the outcome. 
 

 

[david.aj.silva]

Hi Raymond

I have a LTA MZ3 feeding ZMF Auteur and Verite Closed headphones. Currently I use an RME ADI2 for the dac. I've been looking at an r2r dac and plan on buying the Denafrips Pontus ii in the next couple of months. I considered the Ares, but decided I could spring for the Pontus...

Have you made your decision yet?

[Niktech]

FYI….

 

Denafrips/Vinshine has acknowledged that  one of the chips prevents you from receiving the same sound as the other chips and are aiming to release a new firmware for Pontus II (EP4CE6F) in approximately 7 days to achieve that.

info from Denafrips DACs Facebook page and Audiogon.
 

[08Boss302]

I just completed the update for my AresII, didn't find it as simple as I thought it would be, but then I am not the most computer savvy person around when it comes to this type of thing.

I've taken the screenshot and sent back to confirm the update was successul and the right one, but following their instructions it should be.

Will write a few words down after I know I've done it all correctly

[eman]

56 minutes ago, Niktech said:

FYI….

 

Denafrips/Vinshine has acknowledged that  one of the chips prevents you from receiving the same sound as the other chips and are aiming to release a new firmware for Pontus II (EP4CE6F) in approximately 7 days to achieve that.

info from Denafrips DACs Facebook page and Audiogon.
 

Well well. Now isn't that interesting new information.

 

From my armchair I really think it would have been very useful if they'd kept track of what was in their product.

 

If I just had to send my serial number I might have got to it already. Struggling with disability means it's a lot harder to take it apart and then I see ppl having real difficulty puting it back together.

[eman]

On 08/04/2023 at 7:22 PM, JPete9 said:

And this is how product manufacturers and distributors should all behave. Also sharing updated for all models they can support. Its brilliant.

 

 

Yes because although mine is Used it was bought on SNA from an original genuine order.

[thimmy118]

3 hours ago, eman said:

.............. I see ppl having real difficulty puting it back together.

I had the same difficulty trying to line the top plate to the slot located on the front face plate but found the following solution to have worked for me - Put the unit on its front face on carpet or a towel. Move the unit from side to side slightly while tapping the side and the top plate of the unit with your finger.

[Nada]

3 hours ago, eman said:

and then I see ppl having real difficulty puting it back together.

 

If it aint broke dont ruin it.