Amplifier Upgrade Musings

[brumby]

My amplifier - ME 550 Hi Cap - is being serviced at present, in fact it has had to be shipped up to the man himself, Peter Stein in Cairns.

Having been bereft of music, or even of "decent" sound from my plasma, for over a week now, withdrawal symptoms have inevitably given way to contemplation of what I might possibly do to REALLY do justice to my speakers. I've been focussing on amplification. Source upgrade can, and probably will, come later.

After some thinking, some web trolling, quite a bit of reading on here, and some hard eyed budgeting, I've decided that what I'd like to try is a valve pre/SS power combination.

For the valve pre, I can't go past the Supratek (Chardonnay or Sauvignon). The SS power is a more interesting proposition, however. I've come up with two relatively inexpensive and (like the Supratek) hand built amps I'd LOVE to try.

The first is Nelson Pass' First Watt F4 - review here

The second is an even more intriguing beastie. It is the Audiosector Patek Amplifier by a Canadian designer named Peter Daniel. These are 50wpc amps with separate power supplies which can be bridged to 100wpc. One sells for $C1800. Even better - TWO sell for $C3000.

review here

website here

I'm just contemplating at present. I must admit, though, that I love the idea of HANDMADE components, which both the First Watt and "Patek" amps are. The "Patek" in particular also looks absolutely magnificent, and it is tiny.

I'm sure many of us indulge in this type of thing on a regular basis. What do your think of these. How do you think they would work together?

[brumby]

I should add that I'm not convinced that the Dyn C1s need HUGE amounts of power to give of their best. I'm running them on a 100wpc channel amp now. Yes, they are 86db (or is it 87db?) into 4 ohms. But they are remarkably flat, the sensitivity varies very little throughout the range. I could be wrong, I'll never have a chance to "audition" either of the amps. Hence my posting.

[Jake]

I had a feeling there was something in the wind for you Brumby! This will be an interesting excursion Im sure!

Cant help you with the amp info but Im sure the regular boffins will wander down this way soon.

That Patek is a great looking amp.

Keep us posted!

Cheers,

Jake

[56oval]

Hello Brumby,

Sent a couple of emails to Peter Daniel , he's built most of the F series Pass amps and used them on his own actice speakers .

The F4 needs at least 18DB of gain from the preamp I think he has some F4 circuit boards left .He said the 50watt would sound better

over the 100w ,the kits are really good value .

Cheers.

P.S The F3 might be a better choice .

[brumby]

Hello Brumby,

Sent a couple of emails to Peter Daniel , he's built most of the F series Pass amps and used them on his own actice speakers .

The F4 needs at least 18DB of gain from the preamp I think he has some F4 circuit boards left .He said the 50watt would sound better

over the 100w ,the kits are really good value .

Cheers.

P.S The F3 might be a better choice .[/b]

Yes, the F3 might well be the better choice. But the Supratek, to my knowledge, is a high gain pre amp. I don't think 18Db of gain would be any problem. AFAIK, the Sauvignon has 30DB without the variable switch which Mick apparently no longer includes.

Strajan at 6moons tested the F4 with the Supratek Dual Cabernet and reckoned it was a marriage made in heaven. Not that I need a Dual Cabernet. I can't bi-amp (or bi-wire for that matter) the Dyns.

[56oval]

Yes, the F3 might well be the better choice. But the Supratek, to my knowledge, is a high gain pre amp. I don't think 18Db of gain would be any problem. AFAIK, the Sauvignon has 30DB without the variable switch which Mick apparently no longer includes.

Strajan at 6moons tested the F4 with the Supratek Dual Cabernet and reckoned it was a marriage made in heaven. Not that I need a Dual Cabernet. I can't bi-amp (or bi-wire for that matter) the Dyns.[/b]

What speakers did Strajan use in the test .

Cheers.

[brumby]

Ah yes, there's the rub.

Zu Definition 101db - DeVore - 91db. Both into 8ohms, I think.

[56oval]

Brumby are you looking at a F4 kit or a competed unit .

Cheers.

[cheekyboy]

My amplifier - ME 550 Hi Cap - is being serviced at present, in fact it has had to be shipped up to the man himself, Peter Stein in Cairns.

Having been bereft of music, or even of "decent" sound from my plasma, for over a week now, withdrawal symptoms have inevitably given way to contemplation of what I might possibly do to REALLY do justice to my speakers. I've been focussing on amplification. Source upgrade can, and probably will, come later.

After some thinking, some web trolling, quite a bit of reading on here, and some hard eyed budgeting, I've decided that what I'd like to try is a valve pre/SS power combination.

For the valve pre, I can't go past the Supratek (Chardonnay or Sauvignon). The SS power is a more interesting proposition, however. I've come up with two relatively inexpensive and (like the Supratek) hand built amps I'd LOVE to try.

The first is Nelson Pass' First Watt F4 - review here

The second is an even more intriguing beastie. It is the Audiosector Patek Amplifier by a Canadian designer named Peter Daniel. These are 50wpc amps with separate power supplies which can be bridged to 100wpc. One sells for $C1800. Even better - TWO sell for $C3000.

review here

website here

I'm just contemplating at present. I must admit, though, that I love the idea of HANDMADE components, which both the First Watt and "Patek" amps are. The "Patek" in particular also looks absolutely magnificent, and it is tiny.

I'm sure many of us indulge in this type of thing on a regular basis. What do your think of these. How do you think they would work together?[/b]

Hi Brumby,

Firstly, you won't have any trouble selling your 550 if it comes to that.......I'd love another 550 here to go with my own Hi Cap. :biggrin: I like the look of the Patek but I do note that the article was in July 05......what is the current pricing like?

I recently had a PrimaLuna Prologue One integrated valve amp [EL34 tubes] alongside my ME 550 and at 35 watts a side this little amp ran my Visatons effortlessly and with as equal ease as the ME. My speakers are rated at 84db sensitivity and a nominal 4 ohm load.

Cheers,

Keith

[brumby]

Hi Brumby,

Firstly, you won't have any trouble selling your 550 if it comes to that.......I'd love another 550 here to go with my own Hi Cap. :biggrin: I like the look of the Patek but I do note that the article was in July 05......what is the current pricing like?

I recently had a PrimaLuna Prologue One integrated valve amp [EL34 tubes] alongside my ME 550 and at 35 watts a side this little amp ran my Visatons effortlessly and with as equal ease as the ME. My speakers are rated at 84db sensitivity and a nominal 4 ohm load.

Cheers,

Keith[/b]

Hi 56, I'm looking at a completed F4 unit, if possible. Or a Patek unit for that matter.

Hi Keith. True, the article is an older one. The only way I'd know for sure what the Pateks go for now would be to email the builder. If I do decide to sell my 550, I'll keep you in mind. It will be pristine if I do, gone over by the man himself. Frankly though, don't hold your breath. And if I decided to sell the MEs, I'd prefer to sell them as a pre/power set.

These are just preliminary musings, as I said, brought on by amp deprivation . I'm notoriously slow about upgrading.

[cheekyboy]

Hi 56, I'm looking at a completed F4 unit, if possible. Or a Patek unit for that matter.

Hi Keith. True, the article is an older one. The only way I'd know for sure what the Pateks go for now would be to email the builder. If I do decide to sell my 550, I'll keep you in mind. It will be pristine if I do, gone over by the man himself. Frankly though, don't hold your breath. And if I decided to sell the MEs, I'd prefer to sell them as a pre/power set.

These are just preliminary musings, as I said, brought on by amp deprivation . I'm notoriously slow about upgrading.[/b]

I understand Brumby and I'm the same way when it comes to change and then I tend to hang onto the old gear as well when I do eventually make up my mind. I suppose I could always find a spot for a second ME14 as well. :biggrin:

Cheers,

Keith

[Young Skywalker]

Hi brumby,

I think you would need a pair of First Watt F4s bridged to mono (around 100W as I recall) in combination with a high gain preamp to drive your Dynaudio speakers to satisfying levels.

You might also consider the Modwright Instruments LS 36.5 preamp with PS 36.5 Dual Mono tube power supply in combination with a pair of First Watt F4s.

For a potentially better sounding solution I would strongly recommend that you give some consideration to the Red Wine Audio Signature 70.2 monoblocks with your preferred preamp (or even a transformer volume control).

Good luck with the upgrade, it sure sounds like a step in the right direction to me.

Aaron

[Moondog]

I have no, This will do it for you answer , But find myself liking some options

The VTL I85 integrated , which should have Tetrode/Triode switching fitted B4 leaving the factory

80 watts in Tetrode mode an 40 watts in Triode mode . 2 amps in one . Kinda Day an Late Night amps in the one box Link around 5k in Aus

PM Tony C for pricing , Probably 1st choice

Instead of a tube pre a TVC the Consonance R1.3 Reference Preamplifier for 2750

partnered with either the M800SE Mono Power amplifiers for 2300

or preferably the Cyber-800 Monobloks for 3390

Link to the Osborn site

If you have Your heart set on a valve pre , then keep the SS amp that You have

If not then the VTL intergrated.

In my system an My subjective ears , TVC pre as 1st choice, Then followed by a 4 $$$$ SS pre

into a Valve output stage

Moondog

Or a Valve pre into some class D amps. Dang so many possibility's , I wish You well in the search

[brumby]

Ah, I knew the "esoterica" would come out into the open.

The "Red Wines" are interesting. Battery powered and highly praised. I note, however, that Strajan still has the Pateks in his testing kit.

As for the Consonance passive pre and valve monos, I considered those a while ago. I've heard a couple of Consonance valve integrated. Very nice and good value for money but not jaw dropping. I would take my current setup over either of the Consonance integrateds I heard.

It's obvious why I'm such a infrequent upgrader. So many paths to possibly go down.

And please let us not have another SS/valve debate. Valve pre - SS power is what I'd like to try - at some point.

[56oval]

Ah, I knew the "esoterica" would come out into the open.

The "Red Wines" are interesting. Battery powered and highly praised. I note, however, that Strajan still has the Pateks in his testing kit.

As for the Consonance passive pre and valve monos, I considered those a while ago. I've heard a couple of Consonance valve integrated. Very nice and good value for money but not jaw dropping. I would take my current setup over either of the Consonance integrateds I heard.

It's obvious why I'm such a infrequent upgrader. So many paths to possibly go down.

And please let us not have another SS/valve debate. Valve pre - SS power is what I'd like to try - at some point.[/b]

Sorry brumby he's another one but SS input ,tube output. As for pre's & amps there's no need to look over sea's for high end sound.

http://www.kraudio.com/ Look at the amps.

Cheers.

[RoHo]

How about AKSA? Hugh Dean is now producing commercial, built up products as opposed to the kits he started with.

Valve Pre (Swift), SS Power ( Soraya). Pics of the Swift are on his website - very tasty!

Australian, hand built, great reputation.

Rod

[joz]

How about AKSA? Hugh Dean is now producing commercial, built up products as opposed to the kits he started with.

Valve Pre (Swift), SS Power ( Soraya). Pics of the Swift are on his website - very tasty!

Australian, hand built, great reputation.

Rod[/b]

I wonder if Hugh will chime in now that he's a member now?

[Young Skywalker]

The "Red Wines" are interesting. Battery powered and highly praised. I note, however, that Strajan still has the Pateks in his testing kit.[/b]

Yes, he uses them primarily to power the sub-40 Hz section of his Zu Definition Pros. If you are using the Pateks full range then I think you may find the sound a little on the clinical side which may not be a good thing with a Dynaudio speaker. I would be using a big valve amp based on my experience with the Dynaudio Evidence but the Red Wine Audio Signature 70.2 may be a low maintenance (and dead quiet) silicon substitute at a very reasonable price.

Aaron

[damohpi]

The Pateks certainly look like nice amps, but bear in mind they are basically gainclones with a fancy chassis... (gainclones being the term given to DIY copies of the 47labs gaincard amp)

The guy who makes the Patek's also sells DIY kits (http://audiosector.com/lm3875.shtml), so assuming you are capable with a soldering iron and capable of stuffing a PCB you would be able to build your own for a few hundred bucks. If happy with the sound you could then spend a bit more on a decent chassis, better caps, etc.

[Bronal]

Bbrumby:

another amp you might wish to consider is the Belles Reference 150A -

http://www.powermodules.com/150A_ref.html

David Belles has been around forever and his amps always get great reviews.

I would buy one myself, except I'm a class A freak.

Or how about one of the Rotel power amps? I use the RB-1080 (200 wpc) to drive my subs. The other week I tried it out on my mains and it sounded very good indeed. Rotels have high damping factors, which means they really drive speakers with a vice-like grip.

Cheers

Alan

[brumby]

I'm shtoopid this morning, but I can't figure out how to include multiple quotes in a post on this board.

First of all, I have no skill with a soldering iron nor any knowledge of electronics. Sadly, although I certainly respect the DIYers in this crowd, I have no burning urge to acquire any.

I am aware of the fact that the Patek is a "Gainclone" clone. I would find it hard to imagine any amplifier that would make the Dyn C1s sound "clinical", but I suppose some would get closer than others.

And thanks for the link to the Belles amp. Alan. I must tell you though that I'm fed up with websites which don't include prices. Emachesit?????

Just to keep future discussion here on a "sane" level :wink: , if I was to go down the path of upgrading amp/pre, my budget might stretch to $6k but I would much prefer to keep it to $5k. And "pre loved" equipment is completely acceptable. That's always been my preferred way to make $5-6k stretch to $9-10k and have the "burning in" process already kindly donated by the previous owner. A good amp lasts a long time.

[terry j]

I'm shtoopid this morning, but I can't figure out how to include multiple quotes in a post on this board.[/b]

Tick the quote button in all the posts you'd like to include (not the reply button) and then at the bottom of the page click add reply.

Then you can edit those posts (within the quote tags, but you must keep the quote tags ) and add your reply.

Hmmm, do amps make a difference?? ha ha

[brumby]

Tick the quote button in all the posts you'd like to include (not the reply button) and then at the bottom of the page click add reply.

Then you can edit those posts (within the quote tags, but you must keep the quote tags ) and add your reply.

Hmmm, do amps make a difference?? ha ha [/b]

I seem to recall another thread dealing with that one. Thanks for the instructions on the multiple posts.

Having heard the same setup with different amps powering it, I can state to my certain knowledge that amps DO make a difference - TO ME. And with all due respect, Terry, I'm the one who is "musing" about "upgrading" my amps. At least in this thread.

[curly joe]

How about AKSA? Hugh Dean is now producing commercial, built up products as opposed to the kits he started with.

Valve Pre (Swift), SS Power ( Soraya). Pics of the Swift are on his website - very tasty!

Australian, hand built, great reputation.

Rod[/b]

Yep, the Aksa pre is certainly a nice piece of kit, I won't be parting with mine anytime soon.

But the only way you could acquire this kit in the 5K-6K budget would be to go down the DIY path, which has been ruled out.

Cheers

[Bronal]

Brumby:

point taken about sites that don't include prices. It annoys the sh*ts out of me as well, but seems to be becoming more common, presumably to prevent people from comparing prices online, and perhaps for valid reasons, as we all know that price does not necessarily = value for money (within reason!). People are primarily $ driven these days, and often complain about poor after-sales service when they were only interested in a rock-bottom price in the first place. Also, manufacturers have websites and don't want to undermine sales through dealer networks, even with RRPs.

Anyway, this is completely OT. I did do some research on the Belles 150A and from memory it can be got for about US$2 500. It can be ordered direct from Belles with a 240v power supply as well.

I paid about $1 500 for my Rotel RB-1080 last year. It delivers over 300 wpc into 4 ohms. There is an even bigger one, a RB-1090 (350 wpc into 8 ohms) which is well within your budget, but would be far too powerful for your speakers, I think.