Rob181's Fantastic ML2 Limited's

[bhobba]

Hi Guys

 

The Limited's are rolling along with the latest ones being Rob181's, then there is mine which hopefully should be finished next week, then Doggihowsers, and Mike told me today another guy want's one of my all out jobs.

 

Rob's speaker is very similar to mine with external crossovers, except it doesn't have the copper lining, special wiring harness to directly connect to an amp at the back of the speaker, and mine has the crossover and amp on a spring decoupled plinth at the back.  Rob's speaker has the Bybees directly bonded to the drivers and this is the first speaker I have heard like that.

 

Ok to the sound.  This is the first non copper lined limited that got to me.  It's bass was, well shocking - how can a speaker this size produce bass like this - I simply have no idea.  Best bass I have heard.  It was also very rich and non hi fi like.  Mike hates one of my standards, Peggy Lee - Fever.  But through these speakers he likes it - which shocked him.  He prefers this speaker to all the other limited he has heard, as do I.  It has a real almost euphonic quality to it - very addictive.

 

What's the downside?  i thought it didn't quite have the detail of the copper lined versions - but what it did have was this drop dead bass and almost euphonic valve like liquidity - the words both Mike and I used was not hi fi like.  Its the same type of thing I hear with the Arions - it doesn't really sound valve or SS - it sort of sounds real.  Exactly whats going on will be clearer when my speakers are finished.

 

I suppose a question will be - if you had limited funds what would I spend it on - the original or this.  Get this - I think is sounds better than the original one - those Bybees make an amazing difference.  It is also slightly cheaper - I think Mike mentioned it was $12.5k compared to $13.5k for the original version.  The only other thing is get the 6mm steel instead of the 4mm - it doesn't cost much more and Mike thinks it will make a worthwhile difference.  Of course if you can scrape together the money getting the copper lining and other stuff will be better - well it is thought anyway - but exactly how much better we will see.

 

Mike is going to do a bit more work tonight on them grounding the steel lining and I will go down tomorrow for another listen.

 

Rob - congratulations on your awesome speakers and taking the chance on the bonded bybees - it's a real winner - at least as good as the copper lining - maybe even better. 

 

Thanks

Bill

Edited June 5, 2013 by bhobba

[Lenehan Audio]

Hi Guys

 

The Limited's are rolling along with the latest ones being Rob181's, then there is mine which hopefully should be finished next week, then Doggihowsers, and Mike told me today another guy want's one of my all out jobs.

 

Rob's speaker is very similar to mine with external crossovers, except it doesn't have the copper lining, special wiring harness to directly connect to an amp at the back of the speaker, and mine has the crossover and amp on a spring decoupled plinth at the back.  Rob's speaker has the Bybees directly bonded to the drivers and this is the first speaker I have heard like that.

 

Ok to the sound.  This is the first non copper lined limited that got to me.  It's bass was, well shocking - how can a speaker this size produce bass like this - I simply have no idea.  Best bass I have heard.  It was also very rich and non hi fi like.  Mike hates one of my standards, Peggy Lee - Fever.  But through these speakers he likes it - which shocked him.  He prefers this speaker to all the other limited he has heard, as do I.  It has a real almost euphonic quality to it - very addictive.

 

What's the downside?  i thought it didn't quite have the detail of the copper lined versions - but what it did have was this drop dead bass and almost euphonic valve like liquidity - the words both Mike and I used was not hi fi like.  Its the same type of thing I hear with the Arions - it doesn't really sound valve or SS - it sort of sounds real.  Exactly whats going on will be clearer when my speakers are finished.

 

I suppose a question will be - if you had limited funds what would I spend it on - the original or this.  Get this - I think is sounds better than the original one - those Bybees make an amazing difference.  It is also slightly cheaper - I think Mike mentioned it was $12.5k compared to $13.5k for the original version.  The only other thing is get the 6mm steel instead of the 4mm - it doesn't cost much more and Mike thinks it will make a worthwhile difference.  Of course if you can scrape together the money getting the copper lining and other stuff will be better - well it is thought anyway - but exactly how much better we will see.

 

Mike is going to do a bit more work tonight on them grounding the steel lining and I will go down tomorrow for another listen.

 

Rob - congratulations on your awesome speakers and taking the chance on the bonded bybees - it's a real winner - at least as good as the copper lining - maybe even better. 

 

Thanks

Bill

Hi Bill

not sure if they would knock over the PianoKey Ivory pair that reside in Sydney ! It's a bit to and fro here as Rob181's have dual bonded Bybees and external Xovers ! BUT SDP's Limited run copper plate ?? 

It must seem a bit funny to people to have all these different versions but I can tell you it's only odd if your not a prospective buyer ! when you are it's a big bonus.

 

The extreme custom thing will have to be Limited though (pun intended) as the additional time factor is a killer. I am gobsmacked by the bass on this pair though , perhaps the elimination of the brass terminals between the voicecoil tinsel leads and the direct hardwiring of these leads to the Bybee terminals is the key. All this with about 5minutes play time !!!          

                                               Regards Mike Lenehan        LenehanAudio

[DoggieHowser]

I guess it would be interesting to compare Bill's with the external crossover star grounding approach vs mine with the internal crossover star grounding, both with dual Bybees

[Lenehan Audio]

I guess it would be interesting to compare Bill's with the external crossover star grounding approach vs mine with the internal crossover star grounding, both with dual Bybees

Come on mate don't you realise it's past midnight ? least I've got an excuse, I just cant turn these bloody speakers off. That's just given me an idea ! do you think Rob would come at me charging him $50 per hour to run them in for him ??  worth a try ! I could tell him I was flat out on them till after midnight      YEEEEHAAAAAAAAAAA       Mike

[sir sanders zingmore]

Go to bed mike

[DoggieHowser]

Come on mate don't you realise it's past midnight ? least I've got an excuse, I just cant turn these bloody speakers off. That's just given me an idea ! do you think Rob would come at me charging him $50 per hour to run them in for him ??  worth a try ! I could tell him I was flat out on them till after midnight      YEEEEHAAAAAAAAAAA       Mike

 

I wish I was there mate..

[bhobba]

I guess it would be interesting to compare Bill's with the external crossover star grounding approach vs mine with the internal crossover star grounding, both with dual Bybees

 

Indeed it will - indeed it will.

 

Really looking forward to that one - and of course hope you can join us.

 

Yea - Mike - of course its purely a matter of personal preference if these bonded bybees make a bigger difference than the copper, and also audio memory is a very unreliable thing.  That's why we need some side to side comparisons with others

 

Hope many of those reading this can come on down and hear it for themselves.

 

Thanks

Bill

Edited June 6, 2013 by bhobba

[acg]

Indeed it will - indeed it will.

 

Really looking forward to that one - and of course hope you can join us.

 

Yea - Mike - of course its purely a matter of personal preference if these bonded bybees make a bigger difference than the copper, and also audio memory is a very unreliable thing.  That's why we need some side to side comparisons with others

 

Hope many of those reading this can come on down and hear it for themselves.

 

Thanks

Bill

 

 

 

Give me some notice Bill and I will get down if I can.

 

Anthony

[bhobba]

Give me some notice Bill and I will get down if I can.

 

Of course.

 

Thanks

Bill

[Rob181]

Hmmm...it seems some people have opened & started playing with my "presents" before I have even seen them.

 

Seriously...looking forward to seeing & hearing these two creations. They will stay at Mike's until the conversion of my garage to a dedicated music room is complete...or complete enough to put my gear in. That should be by end June. I have two other "presents" waiting to be used for the first time. I have taken another "gamble" & had 2 x subs built by Salk Sound in the Good ole US of A. Salk use Rythmik plate amps & speakers but build their own much more rigid "box" for the subs. These weigh 80 kgs each & are much bigger than I visualised. Mike is going to bring his gear up and we will measure the room...work out what room improvements can be made and the best placement ALL my new speakers...BRING IT ON...Rob

[Jventer]

Poor Rob

Bill - you and Mike have been "naughty opening presents".

but

thank you anyway. When he gets his presents all will be forgiven.

On a serious note: Rob why did you go for the Salk Subs?

[ljmac]

Okay, I'll do a detailed report later, but I'm the first person to have a pair of ML2 Limited with external crossovers at home. AFAIK, mine are pretty much the same as rob181's, except that my bybees are at the outputs of the crossover, not within the speakers themselves - I wasn't keen on them being subjected to the vibrations within the speaker, which is why I was the first person to instruct Mike to do outboard crossovers with my ML2s. It actually took me a fair bit of effort to convince him to do it, but once we figured out the current vertical configuration of the crossover box, he went for it - and since then, it seems everybody he's told about them wants them as well!

 

Anyway, the most startling thing about my pair has been the incredible bass slam - it's actually the best I've ever heard, and that's with my little 30W Aleph 3! It isn't the exaggerated bass you get with Wilsons etc. - it's absolutely neutral, but the leading edge of the bass notes really hit you in the face, then are gone in an instant. And the detail within the bass is absolutely extraordinary as well. Dynamics are also absolutely breathtaking - once again the best I've ever heard. The midrange is vastly superior to my old PlusR's, but I heard a similar improvement in this area with the standard references, so I guess that's down to Mundorf vs. Duelund. There's a tonal purity to the top end that's really special too - I've found bell tones to be particularly striking in their ring and decay.

 

It appears Bill heard my pair before they got the bybees in them, but they make a huge difference, especially at this level. Indeed, Mike said he found my pair in combination with a CAST-equipped PDX to be the best sound he'd ever heard, but I don't know if rob181's are better still, as he hadn't yet heard them when I picked mine up.

[Rob181]

LJMAC...it is likely they do not sound better...just slightly different. I too had external cross overs on my "must have" list and when Mike said that another person had also asked for them we became the first two...you the trail blazer & me following close behind.

 

Looking forward to seeing some pics of your setup & your sound...Rob

[ljmac]

Hi Rob,

 

I see you're a nightowl too.   

 

I tend to agree with you: I suspect it's going to come down to slight differences, rather than strictly better or worse. Except perhaps for Bill's pair - they're really go for broke (literally!).

 

One other thing I forgot to mention: these things have an incredible lack of strain at high volume levels, and this together with the tremendous tonal neutrality and purity really make the most of lesser recordings, which is very important to me as music lover first (audiophile second). On many recordings where I would have subconsciously started to wince, I now just breathe a sigh of relief.

[bhobba]

except that my bybees are at the outputs of the crossover,

 

As far as I know, your's are at the input to the crossover and you have one pair.

 

Rob's (and Mine) are actually bonded to the drivers themselves.  Mike removed the driver terminals and bonded the Bybees direct to them - there are two pair per speaker - at quite a bit higher cost I might add.

 

To my ears this double Bybee at the drivers themselves is better than the single Bybees - it really makes a big difference.  What we are not sure of, and its probably a personal preference thing, is if its better than the copper lining.  From audible memory it was for me but I cant tell until we get it side by side which when mine are done will hopefully happen soon.  However audible memory is a very unreliable thing.

 

My crossover boxes are being painted right now - the guy that's painting them is a perfectionist and wants at least one more coat of lacquer before passing them to Mike.  Both Mike and myself has been asking him how long - all he says is soon.  Chatted to him yesterday and all he said was everything's good - whatever that means.  Will give Mike a ring Tuesday to see what the go is.  As soon as its done Mike will have my speakers finished in a few days.

 

The issue is Mike is going on a holiday in Europe on the 24th of this month and will not be back until the 29th August.  If the painting is not done soon then my speakers will have to wait until September - hopefully that wont happen - but who knows.

 

Thanks

Bill 

Edited June 7, 2013 by bhobba

[ljmac]

As far as I know, your's are at the input to the crossover and you have one pair.

 

Yes, this is what I meant of course - I was thinking in terms of outputs relative to the speaker, as opposed to the leads that go into the speaker itself from the crossover. But of course, the signal goes into the crossover cable terminals (where my bybees are).

 

Anyway, the upshot is that I do have one pair of bybees instead of two. More may be better, but I don't know - I do know it's a lot more expensive though. 

[tktran]

how can a speaker this size produce bass like this - I simply have no idea.  Best bass I have heard.  It was also very rich and non hi fi like.

 

 

Coz it's a small woofer, the non linear distortion below 100Hz manifests as harmonic content, and perceived as "rich texture"

 

I wish it was possible to demonstrate the difference between a 6.5" bass driver with -3dB @ 30 Hz and a 12" bass driver with -3 dB @ "only" 50 Hz.

Edited June 7, 2013 by tktran

[Rob181]

Hi Rob,

 

I see you're a nightowl too. 

 

I tend to agree with you: I suspect it's going to come down to slight differences, rather than strictly better or worse. Except perhaps for Bill's pair - they're really go for broke (literally!).

 

One other thing I forgot to mention: these things have an incredible lack of strain at high volume levels, and this together with the tremendous tonal neutrality and purity really make the most of lesser recordings, which is very important to me as music lover first (audiophile second). On many recordings where I would have subconsciously started to wince, I now just breathe a sigh of relief.

 

No I am not a night owl...was having breakfast actually. After spending all my working life in the corporate world I had had enough...loved what I did...hated who I worked for. So what does any 50 something male with a degree in business do...goes and buy's one. Yeah...it is a different world especially what I am doing now...but the early starts take some getting used to...yawn.....

 

Looking forward to my speakers as I am assembling my "take 'em to the grave system"...got the subs and the speakers...have had a really "tricky" Windows computer built (well nearly built...still waiting on the case)...my next stop are amps and with any luck may have some good news on that front in the next month or two. I to am a music lover first...no surprise there given I am a "muso". Mike has 2 x Ian Moss "live & unplugged" albums...put some tracks on...close your eyes & listen to these through your speakers...you are there...in the audience...just sensational...Rob

[Rob181]

Poor Rob

Bill - you and Mike have been "naughty opening presents".

but

thank you anyway. When he gets his presents all will be forgiven.

On a serious note: Rob why did you go for the Salk Subs?

 

Jim Salk has the same philosophy as Mike when it comes to speaker cabinets...the more rigid & inert they are the better. Jim uses all Rythmik electronics...he believes he has made a significant improvement over the Rythmik subs with his boxes. My subs are almost twice the weight of the Rythmik equivalents and it is all in the subs boxes. It is a gamble though...I have never heard a Rythmik sub nor a Salk speaker but both do have very good reputations. They have been here for 5 months but have not been used as yet...waiting until the garage conversion is complete...Rob

Edited June 7, 2013 by Rob181

[bhobba]

Coz it's a small woofer, the non linear distortion below 100Hz manifests as harmonic content, and perceived as "rich texture"

 

Hmmmm.  Interesting view - I think Mike needs to comment on this.

 

However exactly why the Bybees did this is a bit of a mystery - like I said I think Mike as an experienced speaker designer who has taken the measurements needs to chime in. 

 

Measurements may be able to sort it out.

 

Thanks

Bill

Edited June 7, 2013 by bhobba

[SdP]

Mike needs a Holiday let him have it in peace!

[bhobba]

Anyway, the upshot is that I do have one pair of bybees instead of two. More may be better, but I don't know - I do know it's a lot more expensive though. 

 

Oh boy - it sure is more expensive - not just the cost of the Bybee's - which at over $800 pr (gulp) is nasty - evidently they take a lot of work to bond to the drivers - but I was really impressed with the difference it made.

 

Thanks

Bill

[ljmac]

Coz it's a small woofer, the non linear distortion below 100Hz manifests as harmonic content, and perceived as "rich texture"

 

I wish it was possible to demonstrate the difference between a 6.5" bass driver with -3dB @ 30 Hz and a 12" bass driver with -3 dB @ "only" 50 Hz.

 

You can quote theory as much as you want, but if you'd actually listened to these things, I'm sure you'd agree that it's at least among the cleanest, fastest bass you've ever heard. It's certainly the cleanest and fastest bass I've ever heard anyway.

[tktran]

The best bass I've heard are from tympani, dipole bass from quad 18" woofers and tapped horns with 94dB/W sensitivity.

 

I'd love to listen to the ML2, but even more so the better more expensive ML3 (with the bigger 8" woofer surprise surprise), in my experience all the 6.5" midwoofers I've had (ScanSpeak Revelator, Illuminator, SEAS Excel, Accuton, Audio Technology) in a vented alignment give nice bass in my small 4x5m room, but not my 6x9m L shaped room at near-live levels.

 

 

As for theory, bass distortion causes audible harmonics above the fundamental. It's not "theory", it's data (ie. measurements taken in practical real life situations).

 

I am not going to engage in a debate with audiophile power words using vague, non-descript or useless words. But small woofers have always managed to sound good at low to moderate listening levels, and this can sound "punchy" "rich" or "warm" in tonality. eg. Linn Kan. But on a large scale it becomes congested and thick and muddy.

[kdoot]

The best bass I've heard are from tympani, dipole bass from quad 18" woofers and tapped horns with 94dB/W sensitivity.

 

I'd love to listen to the ML2, but even more so the better more expensive ML3 (with the bigger 8" woofer surprise surprise), in my experience all the 6.5" midwoofers I've had (ScanSpeak Revelator, Illuminator, SEAS Excel, Accuton, Audio Technology) in a vented alignment give nice bass in my small 4x5m room, but not my 6x9m L shaped room at near-live levels.

 

 

As for theory, bass distortion causes audible harmonics above the fundamental. It's not "theory", it's data (ie. measurements taken in practical real life situations).

 

I am not going to engage in a debate with audiophile power words using vague, non-descript or useless words. But small woofers have always managed to sound good at low to moderate listening levels, and this can sound "punchy" "rich" or "warm" in tonality. eg. Linn Kan. But on a large scale it becomes congested and thick and muddy.

The ML2 is better than ML3 in almost every respect. Doesn't quite match it in extension, of course. 

 

You would be utterly amazed at the quality of audio coming out of a pair of ML2 even up around 100dB SPL in the listening position. (Only tolerable for short periods, obviously.) Low-to-moderate, my arse.