How to hear / feel the bass instrument more on a tube amp / bookshelf system

[Dark Side of the Moon]

Current system (in a studio apartment approx. 50 sqm): PrimaLuna EVO 100 Integrated Amplifier, Sonus Faber Sonetto II bookshelf speakers, Cambridge Audio CXN V2 Network Streamer

 

So... I listen to a lot of jazz, mainly trio music consisting of piano, bass and drums. 

 

Depending on the recording, but for most, I would like to be able to feel the double bass instrument more, and achieve a higher level of clarity and separation against the piano and drums. 

 

I'm wondering whether adding a subwoofer is the best / only option, as I just bought my sound system, so wouldn't want to change it just yet. And my concern is the sub will be overpowering -- it's really just clarity and higher volume of the bass I'm seeking, not a bigger thump/vibrations to piss off my neighbours. Or perhaps a better DAC, like the Chorus Qutest / Hugo 2 might help?

 

Currently looking at the smaller SF sub: https://www.sonusfaber.com/prodotti/gravis-i-ii/

 

Suggestions and feedback would be greatly appreciated!

[DINKSTER]

Dear Dark Side,Great Question,have the same thoughts about more bass options with the tube amp and my most knowledgeable friend with some 40 years in hi fi retail suggests to buy a REL sub.

I dont want to go that way for the same reasons you mention and the cost.

I have a few vintage amps and they have a loudness button on them so that is what i  use to add. some thump. Sansui 555, Nikko TRM_500 and Marantz 2240 ,not that expensive for amps that i find more pleasing than the modern equivalent.

Look forward to hearing other ideas

[Guest crankit]

If you're after bass slam - bi-amp

SS for lows

Tube for mid - highs

 

Or get floor standers 

 

The down firing sealed SF sub looks sweet and could be the ticket

 

A few options

Edited May 12, 2022 by crankit

[GregWormald]

A 165 mm mid-bass speaker is going REALLY hard to produce the deeper notes on a string bass, especially at "feeling" volumes.

If you can try a decent sub without a commitment to buy then that could be your answer. Just tune the volume of the sub so that it adds and doesn't overwhelm.

 

Added—some isolation between the sub and the floor will tighten the bass and stop some transmission to your neighbours.

Edited May 12, 2022 by GregWormald

[Snoopy8]

57 minutes ago, Dark Side of the Moon said:

Depending on the recording, but for most, I would like to be able to feel the double bass instrument more, 

 

57 minutes ago, Dark Side of the Moon said:

- it's really just clarity and higher volume of the bass I'm seeking, not a bigger thump/vibrations to piss off my neighbours. 

I am afraid you have 2 conflicting requirements, especially in an apartment.  It is difficult to contain bass  and bass that you can feel will definitely piss off the neighbours.  

 

However, it is possible to improve the bass by introducing a sub and integrating it properly.  Suggest using something like a NAD C658 which has a dedicated sub output.  More importantly, it has Dirac Live which does room correction. It will improve clarity and integrate the sub.

[Guest deanB]

G'day Peter, which type of power valve are you running in the Evo 100?

[Ittaku]

These are lovely sounding speakers and amplifer, but that amp isn't going to bring the bass to life in those speakers I'm afraid. A sub will make a world of difference to them, but so would amplification with more current and power. Those speakers are capable of quite a bit of bass for their size, but only if you have much more generous amplification. Generous valve amplification of the same sound quality comes at huge cost so unfortunately this would mean solid state for affordability.  I'd say if you're mostly happy with the sound, a sub is the logical addition; a properly integrated subwoofer will never be over powering, but blending a subwoofer properly is never ever going to be something you can do at quality by ear, so if someone can help you by taking some measurements and doing the adjustments you will be gold. Just buying a subwoofer and tuning by ear will be a constant battle that will never quite sound right.

[davm]

John Darko published an interesting video on his first experience using a subwoofer in his apartment in Berlin.

 

Darko Audio: My first subwoofer: KEF's KC62

 

It sounds like it could be somewhat applicable to your situation, although I don't think he plays much Jazz.

[DT999]

I asked for some advice on here some time back about integrating subwoofer with my 2 channel system, and someone pointed me in the direction of DSPeaker Anti-Mode 8033. It is basically an automatic DSP for in room integration for a sub connected to your Amp, you can then set the cross over and level of a sub to match better with your mains. Some subs, specifically the SVS Pro series have built in DSP as well.

[Ken Oath]

Agree with most, you need to add a subwoofer. If you want a low cost way to tune it I used a Dayton DSP-LF at one stage before going DSP amplifier to see if the results would work for me. I was pretty impressed for the minuscule spend.
 Subs aren’t about boom, they're about adding the lower registers most speakers simply can’t. Whilst you nave nice speakers they can’t do the response you're looking for, only adding a subwoofer will achieve the bass extension you're chasing.

As I type I’m listening to the double bass from Train out of Hollywood - Judith Owen, it would have no impact at all without my sub(s) and I have largish floor standers.

[Kristian Kristiansen]

My bang & olufsens are allegedly 'full range' but i run a couple of klipsch subs each side of the room ... they are dialled in stupidly low but to my ears i have the crossovers at the goldilocks position - it's a subtle but essential improvement in SQ 

[Plasmod3]

16 hours ago, Dark Side of the Moon said:

Current system (in a studio apartment approx. 50 sqm): PrimaLuna EVO 100 Integrated Amplifier, Sonus Faber Sonetto II bookshelf speakers, Cambridge Audio CXN V2 Network Streamer

 

So... I listen to a lot of jazz, mainly trio music consisting of piano, bass and drums. 

 

Depending on the recording, but for most, I would like to be able to feel the double bass instrument more, and achieve a higher level of clarity and separation against the piano and drums. 

 

I'm wondering whether adding a subwoofer is the best / only option, as I just bought my sound system, so wouldn't want to change it just yet. And my concern is the sub will be overpowering -- it's really just clarity and higher volume of the bass I'm seeking, not a bigger thump/vibrations to piss off my neighbours. Or perhaps a better DAC, like the Chorus Qutest / Hugo 2 might help?

 

Currently looking at the smaller SF sub: https://www.sonusfaber.com/prodotti/gravis-i-ii/

 

Suggestions and feedback would be greatly appreciated!

Are the bookshelves  on a bookshelf or on a stand in the room? Speaker isolation will definately help. Need to understand environment speaker is placced in.  Might not need sub, apartment sub is challenging:)

[rockeater]

On 12/05/2022 at 12:08 PM, crankit said:

If you're after bass slam - bi-amp

SS for lows

Tube for mid - highs

This is one way to go.

If you want details in your bass, you cannot go over 8" for bass driver. This is the wisdom sold to me by Clifford O'Souza, a guy who run Audio Synergy in Perth.

 

I only listen to acoustic jazz and have been for over 40 years.

I was once chatting to him and told him about different speakers I had, and my experiences.

And then he said it: "your observations confirm my theory,  that for jazz you cannot have larger woofer than 8" or you're going to lose resolution in upper bass and won't get these rapid bass plucks."

I can only add to it, that you should get rid of your valve amp and get one with high damping factor.

Valve apos have high output impedance and do not control bass membrane properly. Valve bass is wooly, unsuited to acoustic jazz. OK for classics, pop and everything else - but not for jazz.

If you get yourself Electrocompaniet amp - some of which claim output impedance of 0.01 ohm, that is Damping Factor of 800 - your bass is going to be sublime.

 

If you are attached to the tube solution, do what @crankit suggested and bi-amp it.

If you are coming to Perth anytime soon, I can play you some detailed, body massaging acoustic jazz bass from a standmounts with 8" drivers.

[Cloth Ears]

On 12/05/2022 at 3:09 PM, Ittaku said:

These are lovely sounding speakers and amplifer, but that amp isn't going to bring the bass to life in those speakers I'm afraid. A sub will make a world of difference to them, but so would amplification with more current and power. Those speakers are capable of quite a bit of bass for their size, but only if you have much more generous amplification. Generous valve amplification of the same sound quality comes at huge cost so unfortunately this would mean solid state for affordability.  I'd say if you're mostly happy with the sound, a sub is the logical addition; a properly integrated subwoofer will never be over powering, but blending a subwoofer properly is never ever going to be something you can do at quality by ear, so if someone can help you by taking some measurements and doing the adjustments you will be gold. Just buying a subwoofer and tuning by ear will be a constant battle that will never quite sound right.

+1

[andyr]

To add to what Con wrote, @Dark Side of the Moon:

 

On 12/05/2022 at 3:09 PM, Ittaku said:

I'd say if you're mostly happy with the sound, a sub is the logical addition; a properly integrated subwoofer will never be over powering, but blending a subwoofer properly is never ever going to be something you can do at quality by ear, so if someone can help you by taking some measurements and doing the adjustments you will be gold. Just buying a subwoofer and tuning by ear will be a constant battle that will never quite sound right.

 

... I would suggest the best setup will involve using an active XO to roll off the Sonettos at 60Hz or 70Hz ... with the sub(s) coming in at the same frequency.  This will take the low-end load off your EVO 100 - so that its power can be used to better service the remaining FR produced by the Sonettos.  As spkr distortion increases with LFs ... it should also reduce the distortion being delivered by the spkrs.

 

I believe DSpeaker have a suitable XO.

 

Andy

 

[almikel]

On 12/05/2022 at 1:58 PM, DINKSTER said:

I have a few vintage amps and they have a loudness button on them so that is what i  use to add. some thump.

If you had some EQ capability, such as via JRiver Media Centre if you can run a PC as a source, it's worthwhile trying a smidge of bass boost prior to actually purchasing a sub or an amp with a "loudness" button.

 

I have EQ controls on my remote, and I often adjust the bass up/down to taste from the listening couch.

 

cheers

Mike

 

 

[Cloth Ears]

3 hours ago, andyr said:

To add to what Con wrote, @Dark Side of the Moon:

 

 

... I would suggest the best setup will involve using an active XO to roll off the Sonettos at 60Hz or 70Hz ... with the sub(s) coming in at the same frequency.  This will take the low-end load off your EVO 100 - so that its power can be used to better service the remaining FR produced by the Sonettos.  As spkr distortion increases with LFs ... it should also reduce the distortion being delivered by the spkrs.

 

I believe DSpeaker have a suitable XO.

 

Andy

 

I picked up an NHT X2 for this exact purpose. Lovely piece of kit that I wouldn't be without now! You can set it to output stereo or mono signal for your bass output and it's got a few adjustments. Only disadvantage is that high-pass is only 50, 80 or 110Hz (@12dB/octave).

[almikel]

Apologies to @Dark Side of the Moon for going off topic...and I just realised I'm listening to DSOTM right now...

On 17/05/2022 at 2:11 AM, rockeater said:

If you want details in your bass, you cannot go over 8" for bass driver. This is the wisdom sold to me by Clifford O'Souza, a guy who run Audio Synergy in Perth.

 

I only listen to acoustic jazz and have been for over 40 years.

I was once chatting to him and told him about different speakers I had, and my experiences.

And then he said it: "your observations confirm my theory,  that for jazz you cannot have larger woofer than 8" or you're going to lose resolution in upper bass and won't get these rapid bass plucks."

Hi Roman,

 

the ability for a bass driver to reproduce higher frequencies, and to paraphrase your post, "not lose resolution in the upper bass, and be able to reproduce rapid bass plucks", has a lot more to do with driver inductance than driver size up to the frequency where the driver experiences cone breakup, and distortion goes through the roof.

 

The lower the driver inductance, the higher in frequency the driver can play, until the driver gets to frequencies where it can't operate as a piston anymore and higher frequencies cause cone break-up.

 

I love big bass drivers - in my system I run Acoustic Elegance TD18s (18" drivers in sealed boxes) for my mid bass, with a sub underneath.

 

IMHO my TD18's achieve very accurate/articulate mid bass...through good motor design including low inductance...

...and my 18"s have way more cone radiating area than an 8" driver, so driver excursion is much lower than an 8" at the same SPL...with distortion always increasing with driver excursion.

 

 

Just for reference my 4 ohm AE TD18 drivers have an inductance (Le) of 0.21mH  http://aespeakers.com/shop/td/td18h/ 

Compare that with my previous 8" Vifa P21 drivers with an Le of 0.9mH  https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0809/2387/files/Vifa_P21WO-20-08_Datasheet.pdf?v=1605381627

 

The Vifa 8" drivers have >4x the inductance of the TD18s, and the 8" Vifa's visibly needed to use lots of their excursion at reasonable SPL, whereas the TD18s never "appear" to move even at high SPL...

...I had a friend over who asked if the TD18s were actually working 'cos he couldn't see them moving when listening to a track with significant bass at an elevated volume/SPL..18" drivers don't need to move much to create great mid bass in my small room.

 

There was a time when I had an issue with the amp driving my mid range drivers, and I ran my TD18s up to crossover to my tweeters at 1250Hz - ridiculously high for an 18" driver...I was gob smacked that it still sounded pretty good.

 

A major factor in why the Acoustic Elegance TD18 drivers can sound so good up high is their low inductance.

 

cheers,

Mike

[doogie44]

Plenty of good advice here already. From re-reading the OP's statement I think that it's the lower frequencies that are (in a subtle way) under-emphasised in the current setup (the rest of the valve-mediated sound seems to be OK). It's not a question of spending more per se to achieve this better balance; more likely it's 'what is the best way to do this?'.

 

I say to get there you will need to spend a bit more. I don't think you need to change your main gear.

 

I have had bookshelf systems with and without valve amps. I have had the glorious VTL valve amps get a very tight grip on any speaker's bass cone. I have used subwoofers extensively in different systems. For the kind of music the OP has specified, and the current equipment, I think that a sub is essential to gain the extra music quality. I would suggest the smaller REL, such as the T 5/x, because it's so musical. This sub should be equalised if possible (it will sound much better that way, IMO); a DSpeaker 8033 basic model is ideal and cost-effective.

 

It's quite astounding how good a system can sound generally with the addition of a good sub--especially for the enhancement you seek.

 

So, for under $2K retail you could have a system which would sound sublime--and utilise all your gear effectively, as is. Even if you changed things around in the future you would keep the REL and equaliser. If you can arrange to demo a sub in your home system (this would be ideal, I think) it will be 'game over' when you hear its effects.

 

Just my 2c worth.

[almikel]

On 21/05/2022 at 11:44 AM, doogie44 said:

So, for under $2K retail you could have a system which would sound sublime--and utilise all your gear effectively, as is. Even if you changed things around in the future you would keep the REL and equaliser. If you can arrange to demo a sub in your home system (this would be ideal, I think) it will be 'game over' when you hear its effects.

I agree mostly...just saying that a minor EQ bass boost maybe all the OP requires without needing to add a sub.

 

Don't get me wrong - I love the depth and weight my sub provides...but I don't live in an apartment...luckily so far my neighbour's have been tolerant of my SPL levels

 

I would definitely take @doogie44's advice to home demo a sub - and check in with your neighbours to see if it is intrusive - low bass can be very annoying.

 

cheers

Mike

[Guest DrSK]

EQ can go a long way, IF, your speakers have usable output there and your amp is capable. 

 

Otherwise you are effectively multiplying a number that is close to zero to get a bigger number, so you'll be using lots of current (maybe more than your speakers can take) and potentially sending the amplification into clipping. 

Edited May 28, 2022 by DrSK

[maximus]

A lot of good advise here, but I'm afraid through experience the Prima Luna would be underpowered to give you the definition you require. I had horrific moments trying to get double bass right with underpowered  amps, but going active solved that problem.

I'm not familiar with the Sonus Fabers, they to could be part of the issue. Amplifiers from Naim, Naksa, Moon or maybe even Exposure have higher current delivery and would be better suited.

Considering you like the Prima Luna sound, why not just audition a more powerful integrated in the line, I'm sure you'll achieve a sizeable increment to what you already have.

[Cloth Ears]

On 28/05/2022 at 3:33 PM, almikel said:

I agree mostly...just saying that a minor EQ bass boost maybe all the OP requires without needing to add a sub.

 

Don't get me wrong - I love the depth and weight my sub provides...but I don't live in an apartment...luckily so far my neighbour's have been tolerant of my SPL levels

 

I would definitely take @doogie44's advice to home demo a sub - and check in with your neighbours to see if it is intrusive - low bass can be very annoying.

 

cheers

Mike

Noting also that a sub doesn't necessarily have to be loud, or neighbour annoying, in order to do what it's there for.

[Full Range]

You need to see Bass, Mid range and Treble as sound waves that move air at the applicable frequency of the crossover points and the frequency range of the speakers 

What you feel is vibrating air waves hitting your body and ears 

As mentioned above the best way is to add bass in an audio system if one’s set up lacks it, is to add an “active sub”

With an active sub one can tune/adjust it to your system and the listener’s ears requirements 

[MattyW]

Run a separate pre, with one output to the amp and another to a sub. Easy fix 

 

I've been surprised by how well a sub can integrated..... Likewise the difference fuses and power cables can make on a sub. They can be far more expressive than I ever realized. Might have to get decent RCA's for it one of these days.

Edited June 2, 2022 by MattyW