Silent Screamer Posted June 27, 2022 Posted June 27, 2022 Just wondering if this active crossover would benefit from a tube pre amp before a Class D amplifier. The reason I ask is I owned a Butler Audio hybrid tube / solid state amp before and was thinking that maybe a tube pre amp might help here.
andyr Posted June 27, 2022 Posted June 27, 2022 Hard to be definitive, @Silent Screamer. It seems to be a strange device - for instance: the 'DSP box' suggests it has 4 stereo outputs yet there seem to be only 4x analogue inputs? and do you need your 8x analogue outputs to be balanced? When I first created my active system driven by a miniDSP 10x10HD, I had: * one digital input (stereo) into the miniDSP * this provided 4-way XOs plus delay plus room EQ * the 8x analogue outputs from the miniDSP fed into an 8-way digitally controlled, analogue volume control, whose outputs fed (on each channel): sub, Maggie bass panel Maggie mid panel and Maggie true-ribbon. I incorporated a tube buffer on the mid & ribbon outputs only (as IMO, the bass - and subs - sound better without tube softening) IOW, I did what you're possibly trying to do - including tube sonics - with a miniDSP 10x10HD plus the 8-way digitally controlled, analogue volume control. I've changed my miniDSP setup and no longer use the 8-way digitally controlled, analogue volume control ... is this something you'd be interested in? Andy
Silent Screamer Posted June 27, 2022 Author Posted June 27, 2022 (edited) On the analog side there are two stereo XLR inputs, and two four way XLR outputs. There are a few different options for digital in. What I was thinking was like you have done and stick a tube pre in front of the tweeter and mids and let the woofers fend for themselves. Is a tube buffer the same as a tube pre? Edited June 27, 2022 by Silent Screamer
andyr Posted June 27, 2022 Posted June 27, 2022 8 hours ago, Silent Screamer said: On the analog side there are two stereo XLR inputs, and two four way XLR outputs. There are a few different options for digital in. What I was thinking was like you have done and stick a tube pre in front of the tweeter and mids and let the woofers fend for themselves. Is a tube buffer the same as a tube pre? It's not exactly the same - as, by definition, a 'preamp' also supplies volume control and source selection. If you're interested in following up on my 8-channel, digitally controlled analogue volume control - with tube buffers on 4 channels ... please send me a PM and I'll send you pics. Andy
Crazycloud Posted June 29, 2022 Posted June 29, 2022 On 27/06/2022 at 10:34 PM, Silent Screamer said: Is a tube buffer the same as a tube pre? A buffer typically has a gain near one, where pre stages usually have a gain of more than 1, but terminology is very wobbly in use. There is no benefit in adding gain if you don't need it as you'll only need to attenuate it away later to get the system gain structure correct. The distortion profile of the gain >1 vs the gain ~ 1 will likely not be the same and so may have a different perceived tonal quality, but either way, I'm not seeing to point of doing what you ask. Adding tubes won't make a poor system magically sound better.
Silent Screamer Posted June 29, 2022 Author Posted June 29, 2022 1 hour ago, Crazycloud said: A buffer typically has a gain near one, where pre stages usually have a gain of more than 1, but terminology is very wobbly in use. There is no benefit in adding gain if you don't need it as you'll only need to attenuate it away later to get the system gain structure correct. The distortion profile of the gain >1 vs the gain ~ 1 will likely not be the same and so may have a different perceived tonal quality, but either way, I'm not seeing to point of doing what you ask. Adding tubes won't make a poor system magically sound better. The system is far from poor. The 7 channel Halcro amp I am using is Class D, I am just looking to pour a bit of tube honey over the tweeters and mids.
Crazycloud Posted June 30, 2022 Posted June 30, 2022 2 hours ago, Silent Screamer said: a bit of tube honey So how do you define that? Different circuits give different harmonic responses so I'm not sure on how to advise beyond don't bother. Why did you pay the premium for clean power amps only to want to dirty them up again?
Silent Screamer Posted June 30, 2022 Author Posted June 30, 2022 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Crazycloud said: So how do you define that? Different circuits give different harmonic responses so I'm not sure on how to advise beyond don't bother. Why did you pay the premium for clean power amps only to want to dirty them up again? The Halcro coupled with the RAAL tweeters are extremely detailed, so much so it is almost clinical sounding. Now while I don't mind that to some degree I would like a little bit more warmth to the sound. While I may wind up trading some of the detail for distortion, tube distortion is pleasing to the human ear. Previously I had a Butler Audio hybrid tube / SS amp which I reluctantly sold to my brother in law to use on some Sonus Faber Cremona speakers I sold him. I knew to get the most out of those speakers it was going to take something like that Butler Audio amp. I was using it in my system for a while before I bought the Halcro, and while I picked up a lot of detail I lost some of that tube magic. I would like to try and regain a little bit of it provided I don't have to compromise too much. Edited June 30, 2022 by Silent Screamer
Crazycloud Posted June 30, 2022 Posted June 30, 2022 Just now, Silent Screamer said: tube distortion is pleasing to the human ear. Not always. I don't particularly like the IMD that comes with it. Nevertheless, I can design you a tune circuit from very clean to dirty as all get out like an old PAS. You need to know what you want it to do to get the sound you want. I have no idea what that it sitting 1000k from you. There is no 'magic' that tubes provide.
Silent Screamer Posted June 30, 2022 Author Posted June 30, 2022 Not sure I would agree with that some of the nicest amplification I have ever heard was a proper tube amp, it was just so pleasurable to listen to. It may not have been super detailed (certainly wasn't bad) but it just sounded nice. And at the end of the day it is not all about measurements we need to be moved by the music or it is pointless listening to it.
Crazycloud Posted June 30, 2022 Posted June 30, 2022 6 minutes ago, Silent Screamer said: moved by the music or it is pointless listening to it. I can be moved by a piece of music on a clock radio.
Silent Screamer Posted June 30, 2022 Author Posted June 30, 2022 I wish I could. I would listen to Pavarotti on mums plastic 3 in 1 and it would make me cringe. I listen to it on my system and it can bring tears to the eye. I need to be immersed in the sound. Same for things like Pink Floyd. I need to be able to close my eyes and just fall into the music, be part of it. That is when I get the greatest joy from music.
andyr Posted June 30, 2022 Posted June 30, 2022 3 hours ago, Silent Screamer said: The system is far from poor. The 7 channel Halcro amp I am using is Class D, I am just looking to pour a bit of tube honey over the tweeters and mids. I - and many others here - know what you mean by that, Paul ... but, given his response: 1 hour ago, Crazycloud said: So how do you define that? ... I suggest Cc doesn't. 25 minutes ago, Silent Screamer said: I wish I could. I would listen to Pavarotti on mums plastic 3 in 1 and it would make me cringe. I listen to it on my system and it can bring tears to the eye. I need to be immersed in the sound. Same for things like Pink Floyd. I need to be able to close my eyes and just fall into the music, be part of it. That is when I get the greatest joy from music. I certainly agree with you on that! So I suspect you would like this pic that was in the "Joke" thread recently? (But I don't think Cc does.) Andy
Silent Screamer Posted June 30, 2022 Author Posted June 30, 2022 I don't want this either... It needs to still sound natural.
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