How Loud Will ML1's Go

[Lenehan Audio]

Sounds like a good reason to begin the development of a DSP (crossover + correction) solution. 

Hi Art          agreed there would be potential but resources are the question ! do you know anyone that can do that ?   Regards Mike Lenehan

[betty boop]

to help the thread calm down, lets all sing together...

 

 

How loud will ML1is go ?

Dear me, does anybody know?

How does a lenehan go?

On some grunty amps the whole day long?

 

 

 

credit to the hungry caterpillar :lol:

 

How does a caterpillar go?

How does a caterpillar go?

How does a caterpillar go?

Dear me, does anybody know?

How does a caterpillar go?

On a cabbage leaf the whole day long?

 

sorry just put both kids to bed earlier :lol:

[Art Vandelay]

Hi Art          agreed there would be potential but resources are the question ! do you know anyone that can do that ?   Regards Mike Lenehan

 

Hi Mike,  

 

Yes, actually a friend of mine is the DSP guru you need.  I'll need to check with him first to see if he can fit the project into his schedule of course.  

 

I'll get back to you asap.

 

Cheers,

Art

[caddisgeek]

Yes i do when i attend the fremantle chamber orchestra................

 

what about at home?

[bhobba]

Sounds like a good reason to begin the development of a DSP (crossover + correction) solution. 

 

I have often thought that was the optimum solution.

 

The DEQX guys make an interesting unit that does just that but converts analogue to digital than back again - yuck.

 

Why not simply accept digital, separate it out with the hi-pass going to digital out and the low-pass as an analogue out - I am not sure the quality of the dac makes much difference on the bass unit. 

 

Thanks

Bill

[hochopeper]

DSP is the way of the future and you needn't look too far away either Bill

[Once was an audiophile]

DSP is the way of the future and you needn't look too far away either Bill

I hope somebody gets its right without murdering music (natural instruments)   

[caddisgeek]

what is a natural instrument?

[hochopeper]

I hope somebody gets its right without murdering music (natural instruments) 

 

IMO your reference lacks objectivity.

[Guest]

Theoretically if an ML1 is launched at sufficient speed it should break the sound barrier with the potential to create approx 200db

[Lenehan Audio]

Theoretically if an ML1 is launched at sufficient speed it should break the sound barrier with the potential to create approx 200db

Hi Andy             aren't you being  a skeptic or cynic as per your subtext accompanying your avatar  ? shouldn"t you be asking " Why Not ?"      Regards Mike Lenehan

[Audiobugged]

Hi Andy aren't you being a skeptic or cynic as per your subtext accompanying your avatar ? shouldn"t you be asking " Why Not ?" Regards Mike Lenehan

Probably neither it's just physic(s)... hic

[ArthurDent]

The DEQX guys make an interesting unit that does just that but converts analogue to digital than back again - yuck.

 

Do you know another way of feeding the arguably better (than digital) analogue signal from vinyl or tape into a DSP based system.

[hochopeper]

Do you know another way of feeding the arguably better (than digital) analogue signal from vinyl or tape into a DSP based system.

 

DSP would be my preferred method of RIAA correction ... just saying.

 

I am yet to be convinced that DAC/ADC/DAC is always a bad thing too - though if I could avoid it I would.

Edited August 8, 2013 by hochopeper

[bhobba]

Do you know another way of feeding the arguably better (than digital) analogue signal from vinyl or tape into a DSP based system.

 

Then you defeat the purpose of those sources by converting to digital then back again and are limited by the quality of the process, in particular the quality of the DAC converting from digital to analogue.

 

If you are going to do digital, do digital all the way through - otherwise its simply silly.

 

Thanks

Bill

[davewantsmoore]

do you know anyone that can do that ?

 

[bhobba]

I am yet to be convinced that DAC/ADC/DAC is always a bad thing too - though if I could avoid it I would.

 

It's not bad in the sense devices that do it do not sound horrid etc etc.  The DEQX device I mentioned has had some good reviews.

 

But if ultimate sonics is what you are after it makes no sense at all.

 

If you are satisfied with that simply convert all you non digital sources to digital with an ADC, store them, and playback from that - same effect - and much more convenient.

 

Also its highly doubtful the quality of the DAC's used in such devices are that crash hot.

 

Thanks

Bill

[davewantsmoore]

Why not simply accept digital, separate it out with the hi-pass going to digital out and the low-pass as an analogue out - I am not sure the quality of the dac makes much difference on the bass unit. 

 

This is exactly what I do with my DSPs usually...

 

However, I tend to think that  "DAC quality for bass doesn't matter" .... isn't right.

 

BUT....   I also think that much "lower quality" DACs are not such a big issue for either (high or low) .... or, conversely, that the quality of the DACs in my DSP are "good enough".

 

That's not to say that "DAC quality is unimportant" ..... but certainly in the whole scheme of things (ie.  what corrections are possible with DSP) .... then their effects are swamped.

 

 

 

The big(gest) issue with DSP and commercial products, is making it "plug and play" ... or "user friendly"....    and in that regard, I can certainly see an attraction for passive XOs.

[sir sanders zingmore]

or perhaps on balance, the benefits of room correction + time alignment may outweigh the possible degradation from the AD/DA conversion?

[bhobba]

what is a natural instrument?

 

I think its pretty obvious - the natural sound of instruments.

 

IMO your reference lacks objectivity.

 

Its the same old arguments rehashed.  Suffice to say some people think the way to judge a Hi Fi system is to compare it to what we hear live.  Its purely subjective but that's what they do.  I personally agree with it but its a discussion for a thread devoted to that rather than one on how loud ML1's will go.

 

Thanks

Bill

[davewantsmoore]

Then you defeat the purpose of those sources by converting to digital then back again and are limited by the quality of the process, in particular the quality of the DAC converting from digital to analogue.

 

If you are going to do digital, do digital all the way through - otherwise its simply silly.

 

Sure..... but you have made the assumption that the A>D>A will "limit the quality".... the word "silly" posses it is a forgone conclusion.

 

 

This may be the case sometimes....   but you may also be making a very bad generalisation  (you are according to some big names).

[bhobba]

However, I tend to think that  "DAC quality for bass doesn't matter" .... isn't right.

 

You may be correct - it probably needs to be investigated if below about 50hz or so a high end DAC makes much if any difference.  The device I am thinking of could offer both options.

 

I am however convinced it does for the high pass bit and that would be via an external DAC with I2S.

 

Thanks

Bill

[Guest myrantz]

Rather than talk and theory..

 

Can some ML1 owners here take a pic of their SPL meter? 

 

IIRC I only go to around 70 dbSPL from where I sit. Never sustain 70+ dBSPL for more than 5 seconds either..  So I'm a wuss  :lol: ..

 

Am interested to see the peak SPL you guys get, and the sustain time...  Anybody gone over 100? 

 

Also am interested to know if Mike will void the warranty for this ?

[ArthurDent]

Then you defeat the purpose of those sources by converting to digital then back again and are limited by the quality of the process, in particular the quality of the DAC converting from digital to analogue.

 

If you are going to do digital, do digital all the way through - otherwise its simply silly.

 

Thanks

Bill

So if I understand this correctly what you're saying is that anyone using a superior (again arguably) DSP based speaker system shouldn't be using it with analogue sources like vinyl or tape because processing it digitally can only degrade it.

And yet the main limitation to quality as you see it is the final DAC(s) in the system, not the ADC or the DSP processing itself.

Wouldn't a bank of Level 2 PDX's be up to the job?

[hochopeper]

But if ultimate sonics is what you are after it makes no sense at all.

 

This supposes that the is no threshold to which improvements are no longer noticeable. There is. That threshold may not be met by some products in some systems. I am not interested in a debate that sets those thresholds though, that particular field of research isn't of personal interest to me, though I pay attention to what people have done in this area to guide design decisions and mix of compromises that are required.

 

 

 

Can some ML1 owners here take a pic of their SPL meter? 

 

 

Let's take a second to think about the issue that I bought up that started this conversation. I said that it is not a steady state output issue. I am concerned about the just noticeable difference level for a signal envelope over the period of a few ms to a few seconds that IMO will impact the sound quality but will not be noticed as a gross distortion. An SPL meter will not show sufficient data to make any conclusion on this aspect. Unfortunately the discussion got a bit overly focused on woofers because LF bandwidth is one aspect of the peak output capacity, it is not the whole story though.

Edited August 8, 2013 by hochopeper