How much better is Atmos than 5.1 surround

[Jone5y]

Context: Ive got an old Denon 2311 (no 4K) which has HDMI 1.4 functionality currently acting as my control hub. There are HDMI 2.0 cables from PVR, PS4, DVD player to the Denon into a Arc input in a 4k 6 series Samsung TV. Streaming is provided by a Chromecast with Google TV,  connected directly to the TV. My question basically boils down to whether i should a) connect a (new) Blu Ray player direct to the tv and eArc the sound from TV to receiver for 5.1 surround or b) upgrade the AVR to something like the 3700 (I need preouts), and connect all devices to it. I have tentative approval for some ceiling speakers in the medium term future

 

For those who have experienced Atmos, or used a 3700, are either a significant jump from a 2311 and 5.1 and worthy of investing in?

[Quark]

Atmos is only an incremental step up from 5.1 (I went from 5.1 to 7.2.4) and it does depend on the sound mix in the material. The Audyssey XT32 room correction in the X3700 is a big step up from the version in your X2311. I think the X3700 and Atmos would be a worthwhile upgrade.

Edited July 30, 2022 by Quark

[Jone5y]

Cheers didn't consider that the audyssey would be where the biggest difference might lie. 

[WasM]

Suggest a consideration to buy/upgrade avr when you have the ceiling speakers installed.

In my setup the 7.2.4 is a big step over 5.1, even when fed old dolby dig using upmix is pretty good.

[hopefullguy]

it all comes down to the variables...

 

room, room acoustics, where you sit, how you actually install "atmos", source material etc etc.

 

unfortunately people think "atmos" actually means "ATMOS" when there are many levels of atmos, degraded by the greed of dolby labs.

 

i run a basic 5.1.4 in a small dedicated room and it is an incremental improvement over a standard 5.1. i run a denon x4500 and sometimes a yammy rxa3070 and change them out waiting until i finish my main ht room which will be 7.3.4.

 

a 5.1 set up correctly is still a good system and if you forget the "atmos" hype and look at it as an addition to your room sound, not so much a life changing experience.

[Snoopy8]

19 hours ago, hopefullguy said:

a 5.1 set up correctly is still a good system and if you forget the "atmos" hype and look at it as an addition to your room sound, not so much a life changing experience.

 

Agree it is not a life changing experience, but boy, does it sound good with a well mixed Atmos movie, when the sound engineers decide to put in the effort.  And yes, majority of movies have so, so Atmos mixes.

 

For OP, it depends on how much value you put on the audio part of a movie.  It may be more worthwhile to initially go 5.2 (dual subs) to get the slam of explosions instead of 5.1.2 or 5.1.4  Atmos.  Or if you can afford it ($$$, space and WAF), go 5.2.4 or even 7.2.4 in one go.

[hopefullguy]

yes such an important point.. source mixing.

 

also agree, go 2 subs before atmos. increase the "level" of the audio experience in stages and after 5.1 i would go 5.2.

[Jone5y]

What I'm hearing is the general gist is that Atmos itself is not as important as the overall setup so I wont rush for a new AVR just yet. I think I'll grab the Panasonic DP-BP820 Bluray player. It has one HDMI for audio and another for the picture. That'll enable me to bypass the AVR's limitations and get a 4k Signal to the AVR. When the current one dies, I'll add in some ceiling speakers and upgrade to something like the Denon 3700 for a more complete experience. 

 

For a pseudo 5.2 arrangement, the makers of the speakers have recommended using a line combiner to merge the signal for the sub and mains together and onward to the mains (15" drivers). Might not be perfect, but a big step up from not having a sub at all. My only other option is a single sub in the rear of the room, which is also not ideal

[Snoopy8]

9 minutes ago, Jone5y said:

I think I'll grab the Panasonic DP-BP820 Bluray player. It has one HDMI for audio and another for the picture. That'll enable me to bypass the AVR's limitations and get a 4k Signal to the AVR. When the current one dies, I'll add in some ceiling speakers and upgrade to something like the Denon 3700 for a more complete experience. 

The Pana is a good player.  But I still think you can upgrade to a used AVR, which can do 4K pass through, relatively cheaply and gain a better audio experience overall.  I believe that better sound makes movies more enjoyable (hence my earlier Atmos comment).

 

14 minutes ago, Jone5y said:

For a pseudo 5.2 arrangement, the makers of the speakers have recommended using a line combiner to merge the signal for the sub and mains together and onward to the mains (15" drivers). Might not be perfect, but a big step up from not having a sub at all. My only other option is a single sub in the rear of the room, which is also not ideal

An unusual setup!  But what's wrong with a sub at the rear???  It is not normal but can work depending on the room.  Plus a more modern used AvR with better room correction software will help.

[Jone5y]

Will still keep an eye out for used AVR bargains.

 

Previous chats on here have pointed to rear placement for the sub not being ideal due to possible localisation/integration/cancellation issues

[Snoopy8]

Not saying rear placement is ideal but if integration is done properly, there is minimal localisation and cancellation.

 

My setup is in a large open plan family room with kitchen on the left.  My subs are placed front right and to the right of the sofa.  You would think that everyone, especially sitting on the right of the sofa will pickup the sub next to it?  I tried very hard, but could not tell until I sat at the small space between sub and sofa.

 

If you need help with the sub at the rear, please start a new thread.  Include a sketch of the room and possible locations for the sub.  Ideally, you should have your new used AVR with good room correction software, which will help reduce the challenge.

[hopefullguy]

hmm best sub position could be anywhere in any given room, but most people wont do that because they want it to "look good" or "hidden out the way".

 

if you want good 5.1 the sub is as important as anything else in your set up. behind is where i would try and do have in combination with a sub at the front.

 

definitely listen to different opinions but until you try it dont think there is one rule that fits all.

[Steam]

The other thing to consider is your source.  We mostly stream stuff and there are a few atmos streams available but of what we watch are regular 5.1 so don’t really take advantage.

[Jone5y]

44 minutes ago, hopefullguy said:

 most people wont do that because they want it to "look good" or "hidden out the way".

 

Exactly my situation. the only position with suitable WAF is the rear rt cnr of the room, in an enclosed space. No other options will be considered

 

50 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

If you need help with the sub at the rear, please start a new thread.  Include a sketch of the room and possible locations for the sub.  Ideally, you should have your new used AVR with good room correction software, which will help reduce the challenge.

I will definitely do this. Some time may pass before doing so however, my better half has a strong desire to "just enjoy the new speakers when they arrive" before I "go making more changes and adding stuff"

[Snoopy8]

3 minutes ago, Jone5y said:

Exactly my situation. the only position with suitable WAF is the rear rt cnr of the room, in an enclosed space. No other options will be considered

 

I will definitely do this. Some time may pass before doing so however, my better half has a strong desire to "just enjoy the new speakers when they arrive" before I "go making more changes and adding stuff"

You are no different to many of us.  Rear right corner is ok, but enclosed? 

 

I much rather watch a movie in a shared room and put up with WAF limitations than having a dedicated HT room.  Moving family and friends to another room just to watch a movie is not my thing....

[Jone5y]

The pic is taken from in front of the TV looking to the rear of the room. The space available is behind the cupboard doors on the left. Its a brick/cement enclosure. Doors would be open when in use

[Snoopy8]

In a cupboard, the sub could get boomy and too hot ?

 

You have a very large room with such high ceilings and could do with 2 or more subs!!!  .   

 

I was going to suggest this because it meets WAF

https://amp.svsound.com/products/3000-micro-subwoofer?_pos=1&_psq=3000 mi&_ss=e&_v=1.0

But it will struggle with the size of your room.

[Jone5y]

17 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

In a cupboard, the sub could get boomy and too hot ?

 

Oh I agree, but "must not be visible" is a requirement. Everything is a compromise, hence the unusual setup I have planned for the time being

[Snoopy8]

32 minutes ago, Jone5y said:

Oh I agree, but "must not be visible" is a requirement. 

Suggest investigating a white SVS SB 3000 Micro which is very, very small  and being white, will blend in. Will meet WAF in most cases. And quite the opposite of the big gloss black "look at me" subs favoured by the boys!

 

While I said it will struggle in such a large room, it will be better than no sub and maybe even better than your enclosed corner sub.

[BugPowderDust]

You could get a custom designed sub to fit that space, something with at least a 15” driver. It would have heaps of go and would be a lot cheaper than you might imagine. Best of all, it’s going to be high waf if it’s effectively hidden in a custom cabinet in that nook.

[Jone5y]

Yep thats what i'm considering. From memory i think the 'mini marty' will fit in there. It'll be an incremental process over a decent timeframe tho, anything will be a big step up from the 3.0 system i have atm. The new mains will replace the current DIY bookshelves, that'll be a massive leap in quality and dynamics. Those bookshelves will get sent to the back for surround duty. More gains will be had in doing that. An updated AVR will add further to that in due course and Sub to follow when funds and wife tolerance allows.

 

Well, thats the plan at this stage anyway...

[Jone5y]

15 hours ago, Snoopy8 said:

Suggest investigating a white SVS SB 3000 Micro which is very, very small  and being white, will blend in. Will meet WAF in most cases.

 

I'll keep it in mind. It'll need a very gentle approach and sometime after the dust has settled on the upcoming upgrade to the fronts.

[Snoopy8]

5 minutes ago, Jone5y said:

 

I'll keep it in mind. It'll need a very gentle approach and sometime after the dust has settled on the upcoming upgrade to the fronts.

I do understand the challenges, always having my setup in shared rooms.  My "biggest achievement" was getting away with a  SVS SB13U sub weighing 40 kg! .  But most of my gear is smaller, e.g.  small Monitor Audio Apex speakers and discrete, with things hidden away.

 

Suggest you let her see the SB3000 Micro at the shop.  It is really, really small and you may even get away with 2, placed anywhere in the room!  . 

[Jone5y]

I've learned she must see things in person. The journey to find new mains was a long one. After literally years of "do you like these?" from web photos, A trip to the hifi show was arranged to see as many as possible in the one place. It turned out that height was the disagreeable factor. With that determined, the search narrowed considerably 

[cwt]

3 hours ago, Jone5y said:

I've learned she must see things in person.  It turned out that height was the disagreeable factor. With that determined, the search narrowed considerably 

The thing with subwoofers jonesy is that the wavelengths of sound they propagate is very long hence a small enclosed space will likely be boomy and not frequency extended as Snoopy said ..

An alternative [theyre;s not a lot that do this -good brands that is] is 1 or 2 passive in ceiling subs with matching power amps like these JBL's ; plenty of WAF ..

JBL CTRL19CS-WH - JBL Control 19CS - In-Ceiling Subwoofer, White - MadisonAV