Room Treatment Question

[Silent Screamer]

Not directly audio related but definitely sound related....

 

Providing I can get permission by our local council (character area), I am looking to change direction on my upcoming house build. Previously I was planning on using a plywood floor between stories and some kind of fake weatherboard for the cladding. Now it appears I "may" be allowed to build in block down stairs, which means I would be using an 190mm (8") core filled block downstairs. When I first started investigating the build I was looking at pre cast concrete floors (since the home theatre will be down stairs), but recently I have stumbled across this product called Hebel at a much lower cost.

 

Which has got me to thinking IF they allow me to use block (another house in the area has been) then I wonder if I could clad the exterior of the upper floor in Hebel as well. It has excellent sound absorbing qualities as well as thermal properties. Which further led me to thinking what if I was to use it between the back of the pantry and the master bedroom. I figure it will cost less than $1000 to upgrade from using Gyprock. One of my big concerns about having the kitchen right next to the bedroom (like my current house) is the noise waking someone sleeping.

 

What do you think, is it worth the expense or am I just getting carried away here?

 

Also wondering will it be of benefit to do that wall if I don't do the wall between the room top left (wife's craft room) and the master bedroom. I am figuring the sound would need to reflect an awful lot to come in from that direction if the craft room door was closed.

 

Edited November 4, 2022 by Silent Screamer

[jmc100]

It depends on the thickness of the Hebel block you want to use, and the gyprock finish material or render. Check out table 4.1 in their technical download for Rw ratings. Might be useful to compare against the gyprock rating.

 

Another thing to consider is that you can make that walls bomb-proof acoustically, but if the doors have gaps around the perimeter or are hollo-core, they will undermine the whole system. Its very much about looking at the weakest link (transmission path).

 

Hope this helps!

 

[almikel]

I'm totally confused - you flipped between wall construction and floor construction while asking whether Hebel for walls was a good idea???

If your audio room will be downstairs, you will struggle to get the bass right if it has cored block walls on a slab.

Why not use Hebel for those walls also? (edit) I think it's a great product

 

On 04/11/2022 at 4:54 PM, Silent Screamer said:

I am figuring the sound would need to reflect an awful lot to come in from that direction if the craft room door was closed

Just consider the usual "flanking paths" - and don't forget the ceiling 

 

Mike

Edited November 12, 2022 by almikel
additional info

[Silent Screamer]

On 11/11/2022 at 5:52 PM, jmc100 said:

It depends on the thickness of the Hebel block you want to use, and the gyprock finish material or render. Check out table 4.1 in their technical download for Rw ratings. Might be useful to compare against the gyprock rating.

 

Another thing to consider is that you can make that walls bomb-proof acoustically, but if the doors have gaps around the perimeter or are hollo-core, they will undermine the whole system. Its very much about looking at the weakest link (transmission path).

 

Hope this helps!

 

Looking at those numbers the Gyprock adds little to the overall effectiveness.

Also thickness doesn't appear to make a huge difference after a certain point.

I was looking to use 75mm thick Hebel, it's not listed but I would guess that 75mm might provide somewhere in the neighbourhood of 32.

So the construction would be from the bedroom side 75mm of Hebel, some Rockwool or similar, 10mm Gyprock, stuff in the pantry, pantry doors.

I've moved the bedroom door away from the sink area as the noise is most likely to come from that part of the kitchen.

As you rightly point out the doors are going to be the weak link. So I was thinking I would custom make the door with padding.

I was also thinking that I would double door the room. A regular door on the outside, and a sliding door on the bedroom side.

The only time I would need it ultra quiet is very late at night / early morning when I am prone to be creeping around the house and the missus is asleep.

If I put a sliding door on the inside it can remain open and won't need to be constantly opened during the day.

[Silent Screamer]

[Silent Screamer]

14 hours ago, almikel said:

I'm totally confused - you flipped between wall construction and floor construction while asking whether Hebel for walls was a good idea???

If your audio room will be downstairs, you will struggle to get the bass right if it has cored block walls on a slab.

Why not use Hebel for those walls also? (edit) I think it's a great product

 

Just consider the usual "flanking paths" - and don't forget the ceiling 

 

Mike

 

I am fairly certain that I would want to use Hebel for the floor to stop any noise coming up from the home theatre room (along with Rockwool and a roof lining of some description). The thought of using Hebel on the interior walls was a bit of an after thought. If I am constructing with Hebel as cladding on the outside it is just a couple of more walls in the same product using the same method.

 

Seeing the chart above as seeing how much more effective it is than Gyprock I am now thinking that it is a good idea to use it to surround the master bedroom. The room to the left is the wife's craft room so it won't see a lot of noise coming from it.

[Silent Screamer]

The alternative would be to put the door on the side, but not sure I would want to have the entry off another room. While it is a craft room it doesn't matter but if ever it was made into a bedroom (not be me there is only the two of us) but it may limit options.

Could still do a sliding door and a regular door.

 

[HdB]

Having a building material that is effective at isolating sound is rather good but like most things, it also has a down-side - the music energy inside the enclosure doesn't decay at required time for satisfactory reproduction, particularly in the bass frequencies and containing the 'sound power' isn't a simple matter of placing a few acoustic panels in the corners, unfortunately.   Also, Hebel ceiling/upper floor probably requires structural support and this will have it's own particular requirements.

 

So, you're entering into 'pro-audio' territory as no available simple dsp program for home hifi is able to do this, even the very new ones using multiple subs - you're essentially looking to create an 'isolated space' in your living area so need to limit vibrations through the ceiling and the walls assuming you're okay with low sound transmission door panels, isolating air ducting, cable ducting, etc

 

IMO, there's nothing wrong with that if you are willing to pay for it and have a pretty good idea of what sort of final sound you want, and how flexible you need it (ie audio/video reproduction sound effects, etc) - this is the hard bit.

I haven't kept up with your evolving house design layout but perhaps it's possible to move your listening room next to the parking area and use a light-weight wall to 'dump' bass sound energy into that and/or external wall windows/patio door - just a thought. 

 

It might be a good idea to talk to an acoustic architect/engineer to get a better view of what is required

[Silent Screamer]

4 hours ago, HdB said:

Having a building material that is effective at isolating sound is rather good but like most things, it also has a down-side - the music energy inside the enclosure doesn't decay at required time for satisfactory reproduction, particularly in the bass frequencies and containing the 'sound power' isn't a simple matter of placing a few acoustic panels in the corners, unfortunately.   Also, Hebel ceiling/upper floor probably requires structural support and this will have it's own particular requirements.

 

So, you're entering into 'pro-audio' territory as no available simple dsp program for home hifi is able to do this, even the very new ones using multiple subs - you're essentially looking to create an 'isolated space' in your living area so need to limit vibrations through the ceiling and the walls assuming you're okay with low sound transmission door panels, isolating air ducting, cable ducting, etc

 

IMO, there's nothing wrong with that if you are willing to pay for it and have a pretty good idea of what sort of final sound you want, and how flexible you need it (ie audio/video reproduction sound effects, etc) - this is the hard bit.

I haven't kept up with your evolving house design layout but perhaps it's possible to move your listening room next to the parking area and use a light-weight wall to 'dump' bass sound energy into that and/or external wall windows/patio door - just a thought. 

 

It might be a good idea to talk to an acoustic architect/engineer to get a better view of what is required

 

This (Council approval pending) is going to be the final design.

[Silent Screamer]

Unfortunately there  is no easy way to move the stairs, so that kind of locks in the placement of the HT room and my workshop. I also am using the workshop to buffer the sound to the house in front of me.

 

The floor Hebel support isn't a problem, as you can either use wood or metal joists for the Hebel to screw into. Regulations dictate they have to be 450mm apart.

 

The Hebel for the inside wall shouldn't be an issue. Yes they are heavy but it isn't concentrated in one place. The only thing I am trying to stop with that Hebel is noise between the kitchen and the master bedroom.

 

If they were too heavy they would be an issue for the cladding on the outside of the house. From downstairs there will be Gyprock mounted to the lower side of the joists, with rock wool on top of that before getting to the Hebel, so I don't think any direct reflection off the Hebel should be an issue downstairs coming up.

 

The orientation of the speakers downstairs is only for illustrative purposes and may not be the final direction of placement. They will be more than likely 90 degrees facing the rear wall.

 

I don't know if it makes any acoustic difference but I have reversed the order of the Hebel in the bedroom. Gyprock will now be on the inside walls and the Hebel will be at the back of the pantry. I just figure it will be easier to run wiring in the bedroom if the frame is on the inside of the Hebel.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 21, 2022 by Silent Screamer