Chinese clone

[MattyW]

People are not willing enough to pay what this would cost. A motorised ALPS Blue is not that great sounding compared to a 24 step EIZZ AMRS resistor attenuator.

 

Me, I will get a great sounding pre which uses a remote. My current first choice is the icOn 4PRO passive preamp. Exceptionally transparent. Even so mine has been upgraded internally with solid core enameled copper wire and WBT low mass RCA sockets. It all makes a difference.

 

That said you really need to love the sound of your source paired as this pre just lets whatever is there through to the power amp. Exceptional, especially for low level listening.

Edited October 7, 2023 by MattyW

[THOMO]

It turns out I have the Dartzeel NHB 108 copy with the doubled up output transistors.So two pairs  per channel rather than the single pair of the original.I think that is Version 3 as described by Hi Fi Exquis.

They claim this version does sound better than the single pair.That might be true for less efficient/lower impedance speakers is my guess.I will repeat though that in my experience these amps do not really suit low impedance speakers which dip below 4 ohms.They sound excellent with my Dynaudio C5s however which are 4.6 ohm minimum and pretty low efficiency.

The FM 300A copies are probably a better choice for speakers which need more current and  higher damping factor. Even though they are less powerful.They also sound excellent.

 

Edited October 7, 2023 by THOMO

[Edna777]

On 06/10/2023 at 10:24 PM, MattyW said:

This is the best one I’ve heard by a large margin. A friend has one:

https://a.aliexpress.com/_mqTFhEm

Looks really nice actually... I would buy something like that actually cause a bit tired of putting somebody's kid thru private school...

Edited October 8, 2023 by Edna777

[Edna777]

1 minute ago, Edna777 said:

Had a look..nice looking amp . Should be that kinda quality that the 933 power amps are ..I personally think that the 933 amp with the OP 01 discrete module installed is of that excellent quality of sound that's rare. I've had lots of hi end amps pass thru my fingers from my selling years. .Naims, Arcams, even a top end Jeff Rowland that stunned me with the amount of control ... but that was $20,000 worth...so for $500-600 one can afford something that's a bit special 

 

On 06/10/2023 at 10:24 PM, MattyW said:

This is the best one I’ve heard by a large margin. A friend has one:

https://a.aliexpress.com/_mqTFhEm

 

[Dean Gale]

I recently bought an Accuphase power amp copy and the sound is disgusting bass heavy no mids lack of any detail . I would have to say it is possibly the worst thing I have heard . Looks great , now I have to decide do I switch out the most likely counterfeit wima , nichicon and whatever else I can at reasonable cost ? I don't really want to change the main filter caps 160,000 UF times 2 ? I think I can change the sound but it's a heavy beast anyone done that ? And yes I know serves me right I just wanted to see if they had honestly improved 

 

[Dean Gale]

On 09/10/2023 at 5:42 AM, Edna777 said:

 

 

Man you must have deep pockets to take a chance like that  

[Gryffles]

32 minutes ago, Dean Gale said:

I recently bought an Accuphase power amp copy and the sound is disgusting bass heavy no mids lack of any detail . I would have to say it is possibly the worst thing I have heard . Looks great , now I have to decide do I switch out the most likely counterfeit wima , nichicon and whatever else I can at reasonable cost ? I don't really want to change the main filter caps 160,000 UF times 2 ? I think I can change the sound but it's a heavy beast anyone done that ? And yes I know serves me right I just wanted to see if they had honestly improved 

 

Could you be specific as to which clone you purchased?

[mrbugeyes]

Greetings to all.   Don't forget that you also pay 10% GST on Aliexpress.    I still don't know if it is for real or a con.  Any thoughts.  Cheers - M.

[MattyW]

I no longer buy Chinese power amps or pre-amps as the cost of the better copies are comparable to getting a custom power amp build by Watchara Saladkaew in Thailand, or a Vera-Fi A40, or locally made Aspen Amplifiers Titan or Maya depending on the speakers you want to drive.

 

That said when it comes to sources I'm running all Chinese as they provide the best sonics I can get hold of (Jay's Audio, LHY, Silent Angel, AudioGD etc). It's not even about where the gear from though rather just down to sonics. I may very well get another Geiser Audio DAC one of these days though I tend to look for streamer/DAC combos these days which is the only reason I don't presently have one of clays creations.

 

I rather good he integrated as Raspberry Pi type streaming solution aka the Holo Audio Red with his DAC's someday as it provides that functionality without the necessity to develop it.

Edited February 17 by MattyW

[Edna777]

1 hour ago, Dean Gale said:

Man you must have deep pockets to take a chance like that  

Not really... the Jeff Rowland was my bosses and had it for awhile after its repair by a great repair chap..a broken track that took a month to find cause sometimes it would make contact and work fine but intermittent contact.. this accuphase copy...how long does it take before getting warm .?? And is the preamp compatible cause if it's not sometimes a buffer amplifier can work magic.. had a really good Aragon 24k that was fabulous but sounded thick and congested with the Burmeister clone amplifier..ended up using an old plinius that I had that matches... with out seeing it can only imagine some of the issues that might cause this sound issue you talk of.. cheers 

[MattyW]

39 minutes ago, Edna777 said:

Not really... the Jeff Rowland was my bosses and had it for awhile after its repair by a great repair chap..a broken track that took a month to find cause sometimes it would make contact and work fine but intermittent contact.. this accuphase copy...how long does it take before getting warm .?? And is the preamp compatible cause if it's not sometimes a buffer amplifier can work magic.. had a really good Aragon 24k that was fabulous but sounded thick and congested with the Burmeister clone amplifier..ended up using an old plinius that I had that matches... with out seeing it can only imagine some of the issues that might cause this sound issue you talk of.. cheers 

 

Might even just need burn in to. I've found Wima often have a warm dark sound before burn in

Edited February 16 by MattyW

[Edna777]

I also don't think that mucking around with new capacitors will improve anything much .. capacitor quality can make a difference but it won't change fundamentally the sound characteristics especially on a new amplifier plus those wima caps will be genuine.. I read somewhere they have a factory in China now.. have found most new Chinese electrolytic capacitors to be at least acceptable quality. Where I have found most issues are is when an ic chip is used in the input stage.. sometimes the choice of ic's is questionable. Especially icchips like tl 071 or 072 opamps are used.. never heard them ever sounding good.. 49710 or 49720 is a good move up in quality.. 

[Dean Gale]

On 16/02/2025 at 11:49 AM, Gryffles said:

Could you be specific as to which clone you purchased?

E406 Accuphase 

[Dean Gale]

22 hours ago, Edna777 said:

I also don't think that mucking around with new capacitors will improve anything much .. capacitor quality can make a difference but it won't change fundamentally the sound characteristics especially on a new amplifier plus those wima caps will be genuine.. I read somewhere they have a factory in China now.. have found most new Chinese electrolytic capacitors to be at least acceptable quality. Where I have found most issues are is when an ic chip is used in the input stage.. sometimes the choice of ic's is questionable. Especially icchips like tl 071 or 072 opamps are used.. never heard them ever sounding good.. 49710 or 49720 is a good move up in quality.. 

It's had about 80 hours on it and to be honest the sound was getting worse , I'll open it up see what opamps were used might be an easy swap over to something better . Might try a bypass cap on the main filter caps , not sure I trust the caps but I'll leave them be for now . 

[MattyW]

Certainly worthwile playing around with OPAMPS. Maybe a cheap set of OPAMPS to confirm it makes a difference before rolling them. I'm particularly fond of Staccato or Sonic Imagery 994Enh-Ticha OPAMPS. The Sonic Imagery in particular have a lovely, natural and 3D sound...... Assuming they're compatible with that amp of course.

Edited February 17 by MattyW

[muon*]

Sounds like there is something wrong with that amp, or something wrong with It's design.

 

Edit: have been reading elsewhere that these are not all that close to the Accuphase design.

https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/chinese-accuphase-e405-clone-give-it-a-try.320539/

Edited February 17 by muon*

[Edna777]

2 hours ago, Dean Gale said:

It's had about 80 hours on it and to be honest the sound was getting worse , I'll open it up see what opamps were used might be an easy swap over to something better . Might try a bypass cap on the main filter caps , not sure I trust the caps but I'll leave them be for now . 

Keep letting me know what is happening. I've had some really good about results from clone amplifiers. Bought a Sugden sf60 board and heat sink recently that's turned into really nice.. again used nasty tl 072 dual ic's on each channel in the pre stage so again the signal passed thru these 40 old designed 8 pin ic's that the Chinese use to keep costs down.. but easy to replace usually.... hope so if you have them because they are awful to "ear's that can tell"... again replaced them with op03 discrete dual.. no longer cheap but still good value for the improvement they can make. What model of clone was it??

 

[sir sanders zingmore]

Call me cynical but why would there be even a vague expectation that these knock offs sound anything like the original?

 

Has anyone tried one of these clones side by side with a genuine item, or looked inside to see whether the “cloning” goes any deeper than the box (ie, are the circuit layout and components a clone)?

[Edna777]

2 minutes ago, Edna777 said:

Keep letting me know what is happening. I've had some really good about results from clone amplifiers. Bought a Sugden sf60 board and heat sink recently that's turned into really nice.. again used nasty tl 072 dual ic's on each channel in the pre stage so again the signal passed thru these 40 old designed 8 pin ic's that the Chinese use to keep costs down.. but easy to replace usually.... hope so if you have them because they are awful to "ear's that can tell"... again replaced them with op03 discrete dual.. no longer cheap but still good value for the improvement they can make. What model of clone was it??

 

Just saw while I was writing that last note the model . Had a look and it's going to need about a week running in before that starts to sound good..80 hours isn't enough.. looked at the photos and can't see any nasty 8 pin ic's so at least that's not going to be a problem.. no.. I think it's going to need careful consideration on input quality.. matching with the right preamp and sources.. speaker cable will make a huge impact.. on AliExpress there is 8tp which is a Kimber cable clone but great quality..an amplifier this big will not necessarily work best with fat hi capacitance speaker cable.. it's got grunt but will show up inadequacies in other areas... source quality is no 1... Speakers are about third on the list after the source and preamp.  Good luck but you will need to persevere to get results. 

[Dean Gale]

2 hours ago, Edna777 said:

Just saw while I was writing that last note the model . Had a look and it's going to need about a week running in before that starts to sound good..80 hours isn't enough.. looked at the photos and can't see any nasty 8 pin ic's so at least that's not going to be a problem.. no.. I think it's going to need careful consideration on input quality.. matching with the right preamp and sources.. speaker cable will make a huge impact.. on AliExpress there is 8tp which is a Kimber cable clone but great quality..an amplifier this big will not necessarily work best with fat hi capacitance speaker cable.. it's got grunt but will show up inadequacies in other areas... source quality is no 1... Speakers are about third on the list after the source and preamp.  Good luck but you will need to persevere to get results. 

Preamp was an Ayre Kxe5mp , speaker cables were original Kimber 8TC source Loxjie D40 DAC so I doubt they were contributing to the problem . 

[Edna777]

9 minutes ago, Dean Gale said:

Preamp was an Ayre Kxe5mp , speaker cables were original Kimber 8TC source Loxjie D40 DAC so I doubt they were contributing to the problem . 

Don't know the preamp but original and clone 8tc is great.. haven't ever heard a bad seperate DAC so all that's fine.. give it a week or two then form an opinion..still a bit early for something multi transistor like that amp... think it will come right.. looks great quality actually looking at the descriptions.. cheers.

[Edna777]

On 17/02/2025 at 9:09 PM, Edna777 said:

Don't know the preamp but original and clone 8tc is great.. haven't ever heard a bad seperate DAC so all that's fine.. give it a week or two then form an opinion..still a bit early for something multi transistor like that amp... think it will come right.. looks great quality actually looking at the descriptions.. cheers.

Was thinking about big amps with multi output transistors...ie anything more then two.. and realised that actually most of the really nice amplifiers I have ever had or used have been two transistor design's... remembering years ago somebody writing in a magazine.. might have been an Arcam interview with an Arcam engineer.. that he stated that it's a lot harder to design a really good multi transistor amplifier then a two transistor output to give that transparent and openness that is the hallmark of a great sounding amplifier so it may be that this accuphase clone will stay a bit gluggy... and thick sounding. I had a huge Pioneer spec 2 years ago and everybody goes on about what a marvelous amplifier it was but for the life of me I couldn't get above ordinary...at best it approached Arcam sweetness but not quite and took half an hour everytime I switched on to get there... good luck anyway.. hope it improves..

[MattyW]

The best I've run best none of my Absolute Audio Labs SIT-A15, though the thing is so transparent that it's highly reliant on the chain in front of it to achieve it's best. Just switching between the internal and an external master clock on my AudioGD R7HE makes a massive difference. Very very easily heard.

[Niekos]

I can also recommend the Dartzeel NHB-108 D5-Pro clone. Sounds really great with the musical paradise MP-701 preamp. 

This morning opened it up to replace the speaker binding posts, looked very well build and neatly organised (see pictures).

 

Inside the Dartzeel NHB-108 D5 ProNew Rhodium binding posts installed. 

 

I did find something that was missed by quality control: the red speaker lead is blue at the amp board side. On the other channel it was correct, so red -> red, bleu -> blue. Did not affect the sound of course   

[Newf]

I also have the Dartzeel NHB-108 D5-Pro paired with a Musical Paradise MP-701 preamp. They are driving a pair of Magnepan LRS+ and the sound is fantastic.

I just recently received an FM300a clone as well, it also sounds excellent. It has adjustable gain controls, so it may work with a wider variety of preamps. Vocals are little more recessed compared to the D5-Pro but I'm happy with both amps as they have a wide and immersive soundstage.