MSB Owners & Discussion Thread

[Jones99]

5 minutes ago, GThorburn said:

I haven’t done comprehensive testing/comparisons, and largely try to stay off that slippery slope, but did initially play with various regenerators before settling on Synergestic Research power conditioning - currently a Powercell 12 UEF SE - and am very happy with the outcome. I’ve connected it to a separate 15amp mains circuit (not sure how much if any difference that made - did it more as a precautionary measure when I was setting up my first system in this house), and then run everything from phono pre to power amps off the SR PowerCell, including my MSB Reference. Unlike the regenerators (which to be fair were with the previous iteration of DAC and power amps) no sense of squashing either dynamics or soundstage, and everything comes off a very dark background with wonderful micro-dynamics - especially the initial attack. Impact without edge, if you know what I mean.

 

But a question for you - do you have the twin mono power bases? Worth it in your opinion?

Yes I have the twin mono bases. The initial Select I had to compare to my dCS Vivaldi 2 Full Stack only had a single power supply so I could not definitively say. Reading on other sites the general feedback is very positive. You separate the digital and analog sections. If you ask SGR they may have 2 mono supplies to try against your existing setup. Stuart is very helpful and accommodating.

 

Yes dark back ground,dynamics  and details are quite special ...definitely know what you mean.

 

I have multiple dedicated circuits run to my systems and I am looking to run a couple more. I have 3 phase to my house and have dedicated a phase to my system .  Just wondering if I should revisit power conditioning again but thinking I will follow MSB advice and leave it alone for now.  

 

  

[AccuTidal]

2 hours ago, Jones99 said:

@GThorburn  great post , your findings mirror mine. I have had many valve followers come around and mention the "system lacked nothing" ......" just sounds natural and right" seems to be a common theme

 

I have been to @Jones99's system on many occasions since 2010. Every iteration that he made to his system/setup, I had the opportunity to audition it. Thanks mate.  

His latest MSB stack is definitely the "BEST" I have heard.  The MSB Select 2 with dual mono PSU, is truly lacked of nothing. This latest visit has done my head around with a temptation of wanting similar electronics. It was difficult going back to my very own setup, however, I've learnt I can live without unless my long life saving for the intended retirement is compromise. 

 

So there you go..., a system of such will lacked of nothing, including your own savings.  

[ikhuong]

10 hours ago, Jones99 said:

@GThorburn  great post , your findings mirror mine. I have had many valve followers come around and mention the "system lacked nothing" ......" just sounds natural and right" seems to be a common theme

 

To   all MSB DAC owners I am curious about  experiences with power conditioning and re-generators  

Having owned and used a PS Audio P10 with my previous systems , I used the Select 2 Femto 33  with mono power bases  to the P10  It thinned out the sound  and squashed the dynamics in my system.  As mentioned I do not run a preamp I run direct to  Gryphon amps using the MSB preamp module.  MSB do not recommend any power conditioning/re-generators with the use of their DACs

Do other users run MSB dacs with power conditioning/re-generators? Have you had similar experiences?

 

I powered everything with a P10 then upgraded to A P15. In the last two weeks  i powered off my system while waiting for p15 as I could not live with the sound powered directly from the wall, music lacks air, dynamic and body. I also do not want to risk my whole system with power surges or lightning without any protection as I leave them on and connected all the time.

 

previously without p10, i found sound quality is not consistent , sometimes music sounds good, sometimes it sounds bad, sometimes it sounds average. Power plant fixed this issue and added significant improvement to everything.

 

I found all high end manufacturers recommend similar approach to power direct from wall and do not recommend conditioner/filter but power plant is some real beast and they do not usually develop their products around them, but those are real deal to me,

Edited October 12, 2020 by ikhuong

[Jones99]

13 hours ago, ikhuong said:

I powered everything with a P10 then upgraded to A P15. In the last two weeks  i powered off my system while waiting for p15 as I could not live with the sound powered directly from the wall, music lacks air, dynamic and body. I also do not want to risk my whole system with power surges or lightning without any protection as I leave them on and connected all the time.

 

previously without p10, i found sound quality is not consistent , sometimes music sounds good, sometimes it sounds bad, sometimes it sounds average. Power plant fixed this issue and added significant improvement to everything.

 

I found all high end manufacturers recommend similar approach to power direct from wall and do not recommend conditioner/filter but power plant is some real beast and they do not usually develop their products around them, but those are real deal to me,

Thanks for the feedback interesting that our experiences differ quite a bit. As I have a separate phase with multiple circuits  for my system may be a contributing factor...... I also installed all circuits and cabling in my house so that may help also. Perhaps there are differences between the Discrete and Select at play as well.

 

The  P20 would not be large enough for my system demands if I included everything without restricting it.  2 x Mephisto Solos mono-blocks 200W Class A (20A)  , 2 x Woofer towers 1000 W A/B amplifiers and then Select DAC and Select Transport. 

Never been a fan of any conditioning on amplifiers but that may be due to the amplification I have owned.

 

If I get the  chance I will check out the new P15 or P20 to try on the front end. The P10 was a big disappointment  but maybe PSAudio have improved. A few local SNAs have Accuphase power conditioners and rate them highly so will look to try them at some point too.

 

For information if you are worried about surge voltages/lightning on your equipment there are other products that you can install in your switchboard which are far cheaper than power conditioning/generators and most likely more effective.

 

Have you also tried  the grounding recommended by MSB    Lifting ground on power supply and linking ground to your amplifier.... providing one ground reference not multiple? Hard to say if it  has improved the sound but the idea of having one reference point to earth reduces the risk of rotating currents.

  

[ikhuong]

19 minutes ago, Jones99 said:

Thanks for the feedback interesting that our experiences differ quite a bit. As I have a separate phase with multiple circuits  for my system may be a contributing factor...... I also installed all circuits and cabling in my house so that may help also. Perhaps there are differences between the Discrete and Select at play as well.

 

The  P20 would not be large enough for my system demands if I included everything without restricting it.  2 x Mephisto Solos mono-blocks 200W Class A (20A)  , 2 x Woofer towers 1000 W A/B amplifiers and then Select DAC and Select Transport. 

Never been a fan of any conditioning on amplifiers but that may be due to the amplification I have owned.

 

If I get the  chance I will check out the new P15 or P20 to try on the front end. The P10 was a big disappointment  but maybe PSAudio have improved. A few local SNAs have Accuphase power conditioners and rate them highly so will look to try them at some point too.

 

For information if you are worried about surge voltages/lightning on your equipment there are other products that you can install in your switchboard which are far cheaper than power conditioning/generators and most likely more effective.

 

Have you also tried  the grounding recommended by MSB    Lifting ground on power supply and linking ground to your amplifier.... providing one ground reference not multiple? Hard to say if it  has improved the sound but the idea of having one reference point to earth reduces the risk of rotating currents.

  

i have not tried Lifting ground, lower end MSB psu seems to have no option to set this and only standard grounding scheme, 

 

Your monos are absolutely end game and I bet Gryphone has already done everything they can to treat power quality before they go further to the dc state, so a 16k p20 would make no sense for improvement to this end game monos at  close to 200k mark. i think p15/20 markets are around components in similar leagues, would be a challenge improve Mephisto Solos unless power plant are “nuclear generators” to provide 2 times headroom for the max 2x3000w as per amplifier demand.

 

 

 

[Ittaku]

On 12/10/2020 at 11:10 AM, Jones99 said:

To   all MSB DAC owners I am curious about  experiences with power conditioning and re-generators  

Having owned and used a PS Audio P10 with my previous systems , I used the Select 2 Femto 33  with mono power bases  to the P10  It thinned out the sound  and squashed the dynamics in my system.  As mentioned I do not run a preamp I run direct to  Gryphon amps using the MSB preamp module.  MSB do not recommend any power conditioning/re-generators with the use of their DACs

Do other users run MSB dacs with power conditioning/re-generators? Have you had similar experiences?

I use a P20, and definitely did not find it detrimental - however I've not compared just the MSB DAC going into it without, as I plug most things into it (which you've said you cannot do with the amount of current draw you have.)

[Jones99]

1 hour ago, Ittaku said:

I use a P20, and definitely did not find it detrimental - however I've not compared just the MSB DAC going into it without, as I plug most things into it (which you've said you cannot do with the amount of current draw you have.)

Thank you for the feedback .Do  have the mono-bases? Or single?? If I am not mistaken you mentioned previously  that you have mono-bases but not the Femto 33...? I can see in your signature you are running a valve pre so the P20 would be a good investment they can be finicky. 

Have you experimented with lifting the ground on the PSUs as per MSB or have you left it standard. Not sure you would get the same effect/result  as you have the valve pre in between the DAC and amplifier but still curious.

 

[Ittaku]

Just now, Jones99 said:

Thank you for the feedback .Do  have the mono-bases? Or single?? If I am not mistaken you mentioned previously  that you have mono-bases but not the Femto 33...? I can see in your signature you are running a valve pre so the P20 would be a good investment they can be finicky. 

Have you experimented with lifting the ground on the PSUs as per MSB or have you left it standard. Not sure you would get the same effect/result  as you have the valve pre in between the DAC and amplifier but still curious.

 

I have the single powerbase and the femto 77 clock. I have the PSU's ground lifted and earthed to the preamp. I did not notice any audible difference changing the earthing arrangement.

[Jones99]

3 hours ago, Ittaku said:

I have the single powerbase and the femto 77 clock. I have the PSU's ground lifted and earthed to the preamp. I did not notice any audible difference changing the earthing arrangement.

Ok that is contrary to all the literature and info I received which indicates it should be to the amplifier.

But that assumes that you going direct/through preamp module. Did MSB recommend this setup is best for your system? 

 

[Ittaku]

3 minutes ago, Jones99 said:

Ok that is contrary to all the literature and info I received which indicates it should be to the amplifier.

But that assumes that you going direct/through preamp module. Did MSB recommend this setup is best for your system?

There is no point earthing between separated components. The DAC is talking to the preamp. MSB are convinced you don't need a preamp which is why there's nothing in its manual about earthing for this combo.

Edited October 13, 2020 by Ittaku

[Jones99]

@Ittaku Yes I am aware of the earthing philosophy I was simply curious if MSB had recommended your current configuration or if they advised there would be any benefit. They have offered excellent service and information even when I have gone against the grain just curious if they had offered similar help/advice.

Cheers

Edited October 13, 2020 by Jones99

[Ittaku]

35 minutes ago, Jones99 said:

@Ittaku Yes I am aware of the earthing philosophy I was simply curious if MSB had recommended your current configuration or if they advised there would be any benefit. They have offered excellent service and information even when I have gone against the grain just curious if they had offered similar help/advice.

Can't say that I've asked them, but this is pretty basic logic IMO.

[Jones99]

3 hours ago, Ittaku said:

Can't say that I've asked them, but this is pretty basic logic IMO.

I think you missed my point which was more focused on the service/info side of MSB and the likelihood of any benefit at all but thank you for the feedback. 

 

[DrPo]

Hi guys,

 

Very interested in this thread as I have myself moved from Discrete to "full" Premier (powerbase + 93 f. clock).

 

My set up is Antipodes EX as Roon server and Wilson Yvette speakers driven by an Ypsilon integrated.

 

During the last few days I have compared various ways of feeding the Premier from the EX:

1.  core direct -> USB ->  ProISL
2. ethernet -> Sonore UltraRendu (with Farad 3 power supply) -> USB -> ProISL
3. ethernet -> Sonore UR -> USB -> Antipodes P2 converter -> SPDIF

I am quite surprised that [3] wins over [2] mostly due to timing (the ProISL input has slower decay and makes the sound less "clear"). 

 

I would very much like someone else to check something similar...

 

The Antipodes P2 has its own fempto clock but I am not sure whether MSB buffers and reclocks the SPDIF input as well: if it does not, it begs the question of whether the Antipodes clock is effectively better than the (very expensive) MSB clock... if it does, then I still don't get what is happening...

 

Thanks very much for your inputs and the hospitality in this thread

 

Greg

 

 

 

[ikhuong]

@DrPo u have a great balanced system.

 
do you find any difference between 1. And 2. Setup?

proISL is a sort of media converter solution and I bet it will pretty much neutralize dependence on upstream source.

 

great to know a reclocker solution helped to improve sound for msb dac. I don’t think msb buffer input stream large enough to make any real effective reclocker on the spdif input. I read somewhere that the buffer needs to be very large  in DAC design and we should see significant delay in playing video or music if there is that kind of buffer in play on MSB.

for example: Auralic Vega G2 has 1GB DDR3 RAM and users complain this buffer make this dac to become impossible  to watch video if the TV has no sync function.

 

i am thinking a Denafrips Gaia or Iris for reclocking solution

 

Edited November 4, 2020 by ikhuong

[DrPo]

hi Kevin,

 

about [1] vs [2]: yes and it's not surprising; Antipodes recommends decoupling server from renderer. Of course  EX is not optimised as "server" so I keep my options open for a future switch to a dedicated server from Antipodes.

 

To be fair, last night I repeated the same test at my dealer's set up. His view was that what I interpret as "better timing" is in fact a "cut off" from note fullness - he preferred the proISL. The verdict is open:-)

 

May I ask your view on the EtherRegen? I see you are using it before the Discreet so presumably you are using the V2 renderer module. Is the ER worth it?

 

thanks

[ikhuong]

22 minutes ago, DrPo said:

hi Kevin,

 

about [1] vs [2]: yes and it's not surprising; Antipodes recommends decoupling server from renderer. Of course  EX is not optimised as "server" so I keep my options open for a future switch to a dedicated server from Antipodes.

 

To be fair, last night I repeated the same test at my dealer's set up. His view was that what I interpret as "better timing" is in fact a "cut off" from note fullness - he preferred the proISL. The verdict is open:-)

 

May I ask your view on the EtherRegen? I see you are using it before the Discreet so presumably you are using the V2 renderer module. Is the ER worth it?

 

thanks

Thanks for your sharing, in my set up, etherregen makes noticeable improvement for Network Renderer v2. the improvement is not as big as putting a power plant  in my system but subtle,  easier to pickup than an expensive Ethernet cable. The solution makes sense to me in term of what it is trying to achieve, so a no brain investment for me,

 

if you decide option [3] setup, the additional clean up from Ultrarendu and reclocker of Antipodes P2 converter, Upstream noise  might be not that matter but it is worth to give it a try, if no difference, u can resell, many members are keen to try too,

if you decide to go with ProISL, i am pretty sure the Etherregen goal will be duplicated with MSB usb-fiber converter solution and might make no difference, MSB states pretty clear on their website this implementation will 100% immure noise from upstream and Ethernetregen might add no value, IMO.

[Ittaku]

On 05/11/2020 at 12:37 AM, DrPo said:

The Antipodes P2 has its own fempto clock but I am not sure whether MSB buffers and reclocks the SPDIF input as well: if it does not, it begs the question of whether the Antipodes clock is effectively better than the (very expensive) MSB clock... if it does, then I still don't get what is happening...

It buffers and reclocks every input.

[DrPo]

thanks Con, good to know.

[BugPowderDust]

So it seems I joined your gang today.

I’ll be taking delivery of @seadog’s Premier in the near future.  I look forward to the tinkering and listening.

 

I’ll be running A/B with my LUMIN T2 for a while. Will be interesting to see how they compare / contrast and also whether I need to do a whole new Audiolense session on my system for the new device for my convolution curves. 
 

I look forward to many hours of focused listening in the weeks ahead.

[ikhuong]

4 minutes ago, BugPowderDust said:

So it seems I joined your gang today.

I’ll be taking delivery of @seadog’s Premier in the near future.  I look forward to the tinkering and listening.

 

I’ll be running A/B with my LUMIN T2 for a while. Will be interesting to see how they compare / contrast and also whether I need to do a whole new Audiolense session on my system for the new device for my convolution curves. 
 

I look forward to many hours of focused listening in the weeks ahead.

Congratulations on your new MSB ownership, it is a very serious player and potentially outperforms T2 IMO, looking forward to hearing your feedback

[BugPowderDust]

It had better with what it cost! Haha

[44maloo]

3 hours ago, BugPowderDust said:

So it seems I joined your gang today.

I’ll be taking delivery of @seadog’s Premier in the near future.  I look forward to the tinkering and listening.

 

I’ll be running A/B with my LUMIN T2 for a while. Will be interesting to see how they compare / contrast and also whether I need to do a whole new Audiolense session on my system for the new device for my convolution curves. 
 

I look forward to many hours of focused listening in the weeks ahead.

Congrats on the MSB purchase, stunning DAC. Msb is end digital looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

[BugPowderDust]

What’s the general consensus on upsampling and NOS on MSB DACs.  I currently up sample to 384kHz in Roon and perform convolution at this bitrate. Should I turn this off or should I try it at 768 kHz.

 

@Ittaku I know you’ve tinkered with me extreme levels of taps on upsampling. Does this still please the ear or have you gone off it?
 

My unit should arrive early next week and I’m keen on how to get the most out of it performance wise, straight off the shelf

[Ittaku]

1 minute ago, BugPowderDust said:

What’s the general consensus on upsampling and NOS on MSB DACs.  I currently up sample to 384kHz in Roon and perform convolution at this bitrate. Should I turn this off or should I try it at 768 kHz.

 

@Ittaku I know you’ve tinkered with me extreme levels of taps on upsampling. Does this still please the ear or have you gone off it?
 

My unit should arrive early next week and I’m keen on how to get the most out of it performance wise, straight off the shelf

Upsample anything 44 or 48 up to double (88/96), and let the DAC handle the rest. The upsampling I do is offline and can't be done on the fly, but I do it to 705 and 768 which is beneficial. Roon's upsampling won't benefit from going beyond double sample rate, and the DAC oversamples internally to about 6Mhz if I recall correctly.