sjay Posted August 25, 2020 Posted August 25, 2020 6 hours ago, ikhuong said: It is different taste and use cases, vinyl is fine dining (one a month) while digital is weekly daily/eating out. This is quite a nice analogy that fits very well. I love both formats and listen to music daily but I only warm the phono up once a week or so ( Herron VTSP-2) for that reason. In the morning when I get up, I just want music to play so I can go about my morning, not fiddle with things, just enjoy the music in the house. When I actually force myself to stop and sit down and relax, its turn table time for me.
ikhuong Posted August 25, 2020 Author Posted August 25, 2020 4 minutes ago, sjay said: are you running the latest firmware on the device?> yes, Network Renderer firmware version 2.5R, RAAT SDK Version 1.136 Roon core: Roon Version 1.7 (build 610) I trust all are latest, maybe I have a complicated network as I introduced one extra Cisco switch in between the Netgear router and MSB DAC. I might take that out at some point and monitor.
sjay Posted August 25, 2020 Posted August 25, 2020 It shouldn't matter. A network is a network. It will add milliseconds of latency is all.
Ittaku Posted August 25, 2020 Posted August 25, 2020 4 minutes ago, sjay said: It shouldn't matter. A network is a network. It will add milliseconds of latency is all. Microseconds.
ikhuong Posted August 25, 2020 Author Posted August 25, 2020 (edited) 15 minutes ago, sjay said: It shouldn't matter. A network is a network. It will add milliseconds of latency is all. I used to assume the same but things are a little more complicated with enterprise switches. Recently I experimented continuous music drop out/Roon unable to detect my Sonore opticalRendu when HQPlayer released newer version, I contacted Jussi and was advised I need to set "flow control is enabled" on the port to go to routers and to Sonore renderer. "OK, with these managed switches it is very important to ensure that "802.3x Flow Control" is enabled on all ports. This is because especially smaller devices like Rendu cannot handle full gigabit speeds. The SoC (processor / system chip) in Rendu can handle max 400 Mbps, and also this only when flow control is enabled. Without flow control it becomes overwhelmed resulting in packet losses and lot of resends causing a traffic stalls. This could be the thing needed to fix your problem. - Jussi" I did not put much hope on this but tried it at some point after I could find a USB console cable to connect to the switch command line, after followed his advise, no more music drop out or Roon issues on detecting Sonore. Hints: my background is in network engineer, lol Edited August 25, 2020 by ikhuong
ikhuong Posted August 25, 2020 Author Posted August 25, 2020 (edited) 22 minutes ago, ikhuong said: I used to assume the same but things are a little more complicated with enterprise switches. Recently I experimented continuous music drop out/Roon unable to detect my Sonore opticalRendu when HQPlayer released newer version, I contacted Jussi and was advised I need to set "flow control is enabled" on the port to go to routers and to Sonore renderer. "OK, with these managed switches it is very important to ensure that "802.3x Flow Control" is enabled on all ports. This is because especially smaller devices like Rendu cannot handle full gigabit speeds. The SoC (processor / system chip) in Rendu can handle max 400 Mbps, and also this only when flow control is enabled. Without flow control it becomes overwhelmed resulting in packet losses and lot of resends causing a traffic stalls. This could be the thing needed to fix your problem. - Jussi" I did not put much hope on this but tried it at some point after I could find a USB console cable to connect to the switch command line, after followed his advise, no more music drop out or Roon issues on detecting Sonore. Hints: my background is in network engineer, lol Actually I have just given myself a thing to try now, I have not enabled flow control to my Cisco ethernet port connecting to MSB Network Renderer for the Ethernet port, MSB Network render uses 100mbps port, even lower speed than opticalRendu, could be a issue. I will try to see how in a few days Edited August 25, 2020 by ikhuong
seadog Posted August 25, 2020 Posted August 25, 2020 (edited) 6 hours ago, ikhuong said: what roon server are you using? custom made PC or Roon Nucleos or some higher end ? I am running a Naim Audio HDX 2TB HDD Ripper/Server and my Roon Core is a MacBook Pro. It’s serviceable, but I will be looking at a better Server next year when funds allow. Edited August 25, 2020 by seadog 1
ikhuong Posted September 2, 2020 Author Posted September 2, 2020 (edited) I have received my Uptone EtherRegen and very impressed with the improvement brought to MSB DAC with Network Renderer v2. Vocal has been raised to another knot with more charming, music background is quieter and music play louder with same volume before EtherRegen in place. There is slight difference when connecting upstream by Fiber cable and Ethernet cable on the "A" side of the switch (dirty side), I prefer fiber optic as the sound is cleaner and more detail the "B" side has been designed with isolator plus differential mode which can resolve quite good with leakage current. This has also proved that Galvanic Isolator implementation in MSB Network renderer could not solve all the noise problem and this is transparently advertised in MSB technical statement on medium level of isolation. I found some interesting reading on EtherRegen technical paper on how it can improve Ethernet sound by stopping high frequency AC leakage current (although MSB has opto isolator in place but it might not be able To stop high frequency AC leakage current) which is relevant to the result gains in my context. I could trust what John Swenson is real deal and his talented engineering/designs to tackle digital audio issue, there is no snake oil in him, just a lot of folks' knowledge/experiment/willing-to-try are not deep enough , especially the gangs at Audiosciencereview with lots of misleading measurement techniques and single point of view. The forum admin (Amir) tested EtherRegen with M-Dac (I was laughing) ==> look into your test gears and we know which level you are at, the M-DAC might be a hell of noise pond to actually distinguish its own noise environment with any external extra “Q. How can these leakage currents be blocked? Don’t standard Ethernet ports do this? And what about other types of isolators? A. For leakage current to be stopped, a true isolator, properly implemented, is required. While you may see discussion of "galvanic isolators,” by definition galvanic isolation means only that DC is blocked. Galvanic isolators—be they transformers or any form of capacitive or optical digital logic isolator—still pass AC (alternating current). The transformers in Ethernet ports are galvanic isolators—they block DC—they also block low-source-impedance AC leakage. However, high-source-impedance leakage sails right through them.” Edited September 2, 2020 by ikhuong
Jones99 Posted September 7, 2020 Posted September 7, 2020 Select 2 Femto 33 clock mono power bases still impresses 3
ikhuong Posted September 7, 2020 Author Posted September 7, 2020 2 hours ago, Jones99 said: Select 2 Femto 33 clock mono power bases still impresses And SRG rack mode V Statement? 2
ikhuong Posted September 7, 2020 Author Posted September 7, 2020 5 hours ago, Jones99 said: SGR make world class racks ....superb! True, looks like they make racks for MSB,
ikhuong Posted September 24, 2020 Author Posted September 24, 2020 On 25/08/2020 at 12:15 PM, ikhuong said: Has anyone experience occasionally unresponsive of network renderer? I notice it might happen after a few days and need to power off/on the DAC again to reset the Network renderer, all other input is OK, never an issue, just network renderer with Roon could be my network/Roon server issue, just want to rule out. It is far more stable then Sonore in network playback but not 100% I found out the root cause, Roon upscaling 768khz can cause the processor hung sometimes, I have disabled upscaling and only play native sample rates, no more issue 1
ikhuong Posted October 3, 2020 Author Posted October 3, 2020 Great video for perspective of a MSB DAC owner who went from Discrete with dual PSUs --> Premier --> Reference , there is no point to return.
seadog Posted October 7, 2020 Posted October 7, 2020 A question for all MSB owners. What is everyone’s take in preamp. vs the MSB DAC direct to a power amp. ? My set up is: MSB Premier/PowerBasePSU/Renderer Modual V2/ ATCSCM50A active speakers. No preamp. and I am starting to wonder if it’s worthwhile investigating it. For example I would be very curious to hear it with ATC’s own SCA2 preamp in the chain. Not so sure my Premier is all that OK direct into active speakers. The sound is quite wonderful, however could it get better still with a top quality preamp that is made to match with ATC’s own active speakers ? A few owners here seem to have preamps. in the chain. Cheers
ikhuong Posted October 7, 2020 Author Posted October 7, 2020 (edited) I have not tried feed directly from MSB DAC but tried Chord TT2 directly to amp, were not a good result and classic outcome as everyone usually says about thin sound or narrow soundstage, ect. Preamp is equally important as amp, upgrading my preamp from Primare Pre35 to Pass Labs XP-20, I was floored by its improvement This seems to be mainstream setup but I found preamp contribute to 30% sound quality equally 30% of DAC and 40% of amp in digital playback electronic chain. And a power plant gave an extra 20% boost to make my system to play at 120% Edited November 20, 2020 by ikhuong 1
ikhuong Posted October 7, 2020 Author Posted October 7, 2020 (edited) 18 hours ago, seadog said: A question for all MSB owners. What is everyone’s take in preamp. vs the MSB DAC direct to a power amp. ? My set up is: MSB Premier/PowerBasePSU/Renderer Modual V2/ ATCSCM50A active speakers. No preamp. and I am starting to wonder if it’s worthwhile investigating it. For example I would be very curious to hear it with ATC’s own SCA2 preamp in the chain. Not so sure my Premier is all that OK direct into active speakers. The sound is quite wonderful, however could it get better still with a top quality preamp that is made to match with ATC’s own active speakers ? A few owners here seem to have preamps. in the chain. Cheers msb might be not bad preamp dac but it does not mean you cannot get better sound with other better preamps, Paul’s conclusion was that we should not put a lesser preamp in the chain, or aka you need to invest huge on this, unfortunately. Edited October 7, 2020 by ikhuong
Ittaku Posted October 7, 2020 Posted October 7, 2020 19 hours ago, seadog said: A question for all MSB owners. What is everyone’s take in preamp. vs the MSB DAC direct to a power amp. ? My set up is: MSB Premier/PowerBasePSU/Renderer Modual V2/ ATCSCM50A active speakers. No preamp. and I am starting to wonder if it’s worthwhile investigating it. For example I would be very curious to hear it with ATC’s own SCA2 preamp in the chain. Not so sure my Premier is all that OK direct into active speakers. The sound is quite wonderful, however could it get better still with a top quality preamp that is made to match with ATC’s own active speakers ? A few owners here seem to have preamps. in the chain. I prefer the sound of my system with an active preamp after the DAC instead of MSB DAC straight to my power amps, and I did try it with the preamp module as well - which I sent back. Someone I recommended a Premier DAC to who bought one found exactly the opposite in his system though. Additionally because of very aggressive DSP which attenuates the signal a lot, I need more gain over the DAC itself to get maximum volume out my system, so it's not simply a matter of the sound, it's also the gain.
44maloo Posted October 7, 2020 Posted October 7, 2020 I guess it is very system dependent. If you have low efficiency speakers the passive pre may not cut it. I have the MSB platinum signature, used with 100db efficient speakers and like the sound. Adding a pre is not a bad thing as long as it compliments the amazing sound of an MSB.
44maloo Posted October 7, 2020 Posted October 7, 2020 On 04/10/2020 at 8:39 AM, ikhuong said: Great video for perspective of a MSB DAC owner who went from Discrete with dual PSUs --> Premier --> Reference , there is no point to return. I shouldn’t watch these videos. I’ll be working till I’m 70
seadog Posted October 8, 2020 Posted October 8, 2020 (edited) 14 hours ago, Ittaku said: I prefer the sound of my system with an active preamp after the DAC instead of MSB DAC straight to my power amps, and I did try it with the preamp module as well - which I sent back. Someone I recommended a Premier DAC to who bought one found exactly the opposite in his system though. Additionally because of very aggressive DSP which attenuates the signal a lot, I need more gain over the DAC itself to get maximum volume out my system, so it's not simply a matter of the sound, it's also the gain. Interesting, thank you. Sounds like it’s very system and personal preferences dependant then. I’ll eventually get a quality preamp in to go head to head with the MSB. It’s got me very curious now as to what level preamp I’ll need to better the MSB direct to my active speakers. Edited October 8, 2020 by seadog
Jones99 Posted October 8, 2020 Posted October 8, 2020 On 07/10/2020 at 9:23 AM, seadog said: A question for all MSB owners. What is everyone’s take in preamp. vs the MSB DAC direct to a power amp. ? My set up is: MSB Premier/PowerBasePSU/Renderer Modual V2/ ATCSCM50A active speakers. No preamp. and I am starting to wonder if it’s worthwhile investigating it. For example I would be very curious to hear it with ATC’s own SCA2 preamp in the chain. Not so sure my Premier is all that OK direct into active speakers. The sound is quite wonderful, however could it get better still with a top quality preamp that is made to match with ATC’s own active speakers ? A few owners here seem to have preamps. in the chain. Cheers Preamps add colour to the sound. Whether you like it is personal preference and also dependant on the amps you are feeding. MSB dacs vary on their output impedance and as you go up the ladder have a better ability to drive more difficult amps. I have tried and heard many pre's and up until the Select 2 preferred a preamp and what they added. I now drive my Gryphon amps directly. Like all things try in your own system and make your mind up 1
GThorburn Posted October 9, 2020 Posted October 9, 2020 I basically concur with this. I have a Reference, and used to go MSB Reference => Gryphon Mirage pre => d'Agostino m400 => Tidal Contriva G2, and really loved the sound. It was detailed but sweet. Then I sold the Gryphon and upgraded the MSB DAC - and felt like I lost a bit of sweetness but gained a bit of richness and detail. It wasn't really a simple comparison, as in effect I replaced the Gryphon with the MSB constant impedance pre + made a couple of other changes around the same time - Femto 33 clock, Pro USB + Pro ISL, so wasn't really a like for like replacement in terms of either cost or devices/modules. BUT in total it was a noticeable move in the right direction. And while there were immediately audible changes, more to the point, as I got used to the new sound and relaxed into it, I found a deeper level of engagement with the music and the musicians. To my mind and ears, the MSB constant impedance pre module in the Reference certainly has no trouble with either the gain or impedance matching requirements of the d'Agostinos, so basically I feel that anything else I put into the chain both the unit itself and any necessary cables) would be adding tonal colour to what I already have. Perhaps if I spent ages testing I might find a pre plus cables that gave me the exact tonal shifts I respond to - though probably not with every kind of music. I think that there's more difference to be gained in my listening experience from adjusting the furniture in my listening room, and even more difference to be gained from letting my ears tune into the sound of the system by just relaxing and listening through the system to the music. I listen to a couple of hours of music (of a very wide variety) almost every day, and I just love the music I hear through the system. Most importantly I never find myself either consciously or unconsciously compensating for weaknesses in the reproduction chain. (I measure unconscious compensation through listening fatigue). Of course that may change one day.... In short, I feel no need to have a separate pre, and believe I made the right call by spending that money on upgrading the DAC. 4
Jones99 Posted October 12, 2020 Posted October 12, 2020 @GThorburn great post , your findings mirror mine. I have had many valve followers come around and mention the "system lacked nothing" ......" just sounds natural and right" seems to be a common theme To all MSB DAC owners I am curious about experiences with power conditioning and re-generators Having owned and used a PS Audio P10 with my previous systems , I used the Select 2 Femto 33 with mono power bases to the P10 It thinned out the sound and squashed the dynamics in my system. As mentioned I do not run a preamp I run direct to Gryphon amps using the MSB preamp module. MSB do not recommend any power conditioning/re-generators with the use of their DACs Do other users run MSB dacs with power conditioning/re-generators? Have you had similar experiences?
GThorburn Posted October 12, 2020 Posted October 12, 2020 I haven’t done comprehensive testing/comparisons, and largely try to stay off that slippery slope, but did initially play with various regenerators before settling on Synergestic Research power conditioning - currently a Powercell 12 UEF SE - and am very happy with the outcome. I’ve connected it to a separate 15amp mains circuit (not sure how much if any difference that made - did it more as a precautionary measure when I was setting up my first system in this house), and then run everything from phono pre to power amps off the SR PowerCell, including my MSB Reference. Unlike the regenerators (which to be fair were with the previous iteration of DAC and power amps) no sense of squashing either dynamics or soundstage, and everything comes off a very dark background with wonderful micro-dynamics - especially the initial attack. Impact without edge, if you know what I mean. But a question for you - do you have the twin mono power bases? Worth it in your opinion?
Recommended Posts