Power conditioner or regenerator

[Daf]

Hey 

Anyone know which is better power conditioners like Isotek V5 or PS Audio power regenerator… I’ve been told by different retail Hifi shops that both are better ? 
Also power chords locally made or all the foreign brands … lots of advice about this … like Isotek Optimum  cable is the best for mono block power amps but super expensive… am I going to hear the difference for $3k

Im currently using Isotek power board with Premier or Sequel Isotek cables… is there going to be that much of a difference with a conditioner and even more expensive power cables ? 

thanks 

[HdB]

Hi David,

With the high reputation of the Isotech filter components already in use in your system, it's doubtful if anyone can tell which other type of filter or conditioner will be any more effective at modifying the sound of your system or getting rid of any offensive 'noise' in your power supply (if that is the problem) so it'll be the same ol' "try it and see"?

 

Most reputable retailers will offer a "return" policy for products like line filters, power cables, etc if asked.

 

Sometimes, offensive power quality responds to very simple filtering but, at other circumstances it may need something like regeneration - there's a lot of variables to power supply quality and I thought you had high quality in Hobart ...

[vivianbl]

On 30/12/2022 at 1:35 PM, Daf said:

Hey 

Anyone know which is better power conditioners like Isotek V5 or PS Audio power regenerator… I’ve been told by different retail Hifi shops that both are better ? 
Also power chords locally made or all the foreign brands … lots of advice about this … like Isotek Optimum  cable is the best for mono block power amps but super expensive… am I going to hear the difference for $3k

Im currently using Isotek power board with Premier or Sequel Isotek cables… is there going to be that much of a difference with a conditioner and even more expensive power cables ? 

thanks 

I have not compared filters vs regenerator, but went through a huge amount of literature and consulting to make decision and eventually chose regenerator as the way to go in my circumstances. I had significant mains voltage variation that needed to be managed. I am very happy with that decision, because it has had a significant impact. They are expensive, but I secured a 1-2yr old (at the time) PS Audio Power plant P10 pre owned unit. Still using it. 
 

Recommend AU power plugs as they comply with Australian standards. Easier to make use of cables you’ve already got or buying from Australian sources. 

How much you spend on mains power cables is a vexed question!

Early on, I replaced the mains power cord that was supplied with the unit with other audio equipment cords I had lying around and could hear the differences. I ended up then using a Naim Powerline (not sure whether that is expensive/ exotic). that I already had. 

I use good quality audio power cords from the Power plant or wall plug to the audio equipment, because I can hear the difference. Best you tryout cords in your own system and make up your own mind. Allow time for the cords to settle in position and Give it plenty of relaxed listening time, with a variety of music.

 

[HdB]

Ah, not Tassie but still well off the 'beaten track' up there in the Ranges 

[Assisi]

My experience is that the treatment of power in the context of system performance and SQ outcome is very important.  That includes cables, plugs, dedicated circuit and a conditioner etc. Everything starts with the power.

 

 

The supply power to many households in Australia varies considerably from the standard of 230 volts.  There was time when my supply was often a bit over 260 volts.  Many problems that I won’t go into in this post.  I had a regenerator for the entire house installed.  My house now only sees 230 volts regardless of the supply voltage.   The regenerator fixed all the problems and saved some money.

 

 

I have experienced PS regenerators on a few occasions in various systems.  It is probable that there is a possible benefit.  However there always seemed to me that there also was something missing.  Subtle.  I know that some owners of PS regenerators are pleased.  I tried  conditioners.  I was pleased with the outcomes.  I now have a Gigawatt PC-4 EVO.  Very pleased.

 

 

My advice is try both a conditioner and a regenerator and decide. 

 

How much you spend will be related to the overall quality of the rest of your system.

 

John

[mmv]

I have tried all manner of (cheaper) isotek power boards and conditioners/PS audio powerplant and different passive filtered power boards (shunyata and now ANSUZ).  I have also have a lower model gigawatt PC2 (I think), in a second system. 

 

Along with that at some stage I had power cables run directly from the switchboard to my audio room.

 

Every board or conditioner has a slightly different sound. PS Audio has a certain flavour of sound which is quite nice and was in general more forgiving of less 'high end' power cables. I really enjoyed it with my system for a long while. I do feel I have gotten a better sound out of the passive boards with considerably more expensive power cables.

 

I hope that makes some sort of sense! I definitely agree with John that the power supply to your system is very important! 

 

 

 

 

 

[The Mad Scientist]

Honestly, if your hi-fi gear shows any appreciable improvement from power conditioning/regenerating then you need different gear. Well designed equipment cares not about the quality of the mains......

Edited February 18, 2023 by The Mad Scientist

[vivianbl]

13 minutes ago, The Mad Scientist said:

Honestly, if your hi-fi gear shows any appreciable improvement from power conditioning/regenerating then you need different gear. Well designed equipment cares not about the quality of the mains......

Yeah right! My equipment is obviously not well designed!

[The Mad Scientist]

 

48 minutes ago, vivianbl said:

Yeah right! My equipment is obviously not well designed!

 

If the cap fits.....

 

This is the spec for my DAC:

 

Maximum Amplitude of AC line related Hum & Noise

< -133 dB

 

Nominal Input Operating Voltage Range (VAC RMS)

100 – 240V

Frequency

50-60 Hz

 

Min/Max Operating range (VAC RMS)    90 – 260 VAC 47 – 63 Hz

 

And in measured SINAD, my DAC is the worst performer when compared with my line and power amps.

 

I've not data-logged my AC line voltage variation, but in routine wiring tests, it has varied from 230 - 249 V.

 

I rest my case.

Edited February 18, 2023 by The Mad Scientist

[Neo]

49 minutes ago, The Mad Scientist said:

I rest my case.

Don’t see how, what is your Dac?

Perhaps you will find better conversation on specs at ASR and leave us deluded members, what’s left here to try and discuss this hobby. 
Neo

[Neo]

4 minutes ago, The Mad Scientist said:

To my knowledge, the laws of physics haven't changed significantly in the last 30 years.....

There’s your answer.

Neo

[Addicted to music]

6 minutes ago, Neo said:

Ok
Lets remember we discussing a hobby, in this case power conditioners or regenerators and peoples experiences 

Neo

 

sure,  lets discuss it with an open mind and in a friendly matter that's on topic.   Im sure some will like to see the real technical side too....   if I started the OP id be looking at all avenues 

[buddyev]

Chill out and quit the insults. If you can't speak to each other in a civil manner you should consider finding another hi fi home.

[The Mad Scientist]

People believe all sorts in respect of power conditioners and regenerators based on the hyperbole spouted in the poular audiophile press and review sites. I have yet to see any measured results which show any tangible/audibe improvement.

 

Well designed audio devices have a high PSRR (power supply rejection ratio) - in short, the incoming mains supply's effects on the audio output should be well below the threshold of audibility. Hence, my first comment, to which some seem to have taken exception.

 

This is science and engineering, folks. There's no magic, voodoo or witchcraft.

 

ASR is denigrated on many audiophile fora. Why? Because it sets aside emotions and biases  and focuses on facts. If you're of a sensitive persuasion, ignore the comments/narrative and focus on the measurements. Not one power filter, conditioner or regenerator has been able to show any measureable, and therefore audible improvement.

 

Got money to spend? Treat your room, or pay someone else to treat your room. Next, measure your room and apply DSP, or pay someone else to do it for you. The results will be significantly measureable and staggeringly audible - orders of magnitude greater than anything else you can do in the hi-fi chain.

 

If you haven't sorted your room and its interaction with your speakers, anything else is (relatively) wasted effort.

 

 

Edited February 20, 2023 by The Mad Scientist

[vivianbl]

1 hour ago, The Mad Scientist said:

Ah, so when did you get your degree in physics? Anyone can Google search for an opinion on "laws" vs "theories" vs "postulates". Most of the technlogical advancements in recent years have done little more than provide evidence to support historical theories and postulates. Look up the definition of "law".

With due respect, a degree in physics per se, is not needed to understand the scientific process.

 

We try to explain the complex natural world by developing theories and testing them out. We can formulate mathematical relationships to predict and behaviours/events. If behaviours are not in line then theories and formulations are reviewed. A open inquiring approach is needed. The theories are not “laws”. The “laws” themselves don’t govern the natural world. 
 

So, going back to the original post, some of the physics/ electrical theories ( perhaps Ohms ) would suggest that a kettle cord is all that is needed to provide power to Hifi equipment and no amount of fancy expensive cable  is going to improve SQ. 

 

However, if people are hearing a SQ difference with use of different cables, you search for explanations. Yes it could be the design of the equipment is at fault, yes it could be “imagining” differences that don’t exist- its all in the mind, conned by the manufactures, expectations bias, confirmation bias etc.

On the other hand it could be there are other reasons and explanations as well. I keep an open mind to other explanations!  As Julius Sumner Miller asked, “why is it so?

Edited February 19, 2023 by vivianbl

[Addicted to music]

1 hour ago, vivianbl said:

With due respect, a degree in physics per se, is not needed to understand the scientific process.

 

You do,  in my teens,  you need the maths and the physics to get into electronics, that was the criteria that was needed.    A lot of the maths that's used in electronics comes from maths formulas that's applied from physics.  And when you go though these stages you realised that maths is very defined and set.  

 

 

1 hour ago, vivianbl said:

 

So, going back to the original post, some of the physics/ electrical theories ( perhaps Ohms ) would suggest that a kettle cord is all that is needed to provide power to Hifi equipment and no amount of fancy expensive cable  is going to improve SQ. 

 

 

 

Its more than ohms law.   Power from the mains is step down and isolated and is converted to DC level that powers your audio circuitry.   The mains is fully isolate and isn't connected in any way to the audio output.   

 

Ive posted this link before many times and on anoher thread today.   A distorted mains simulation where he connects audio devices with.   Note the audio output of each device before and after!  Note the comments he makes in reference to PSU main filter caps.   this is real and its measured.  You don't need my opinion you decide:

 

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/impact-of-ac-distortion-noise-on-audio-equipment.25501/

Edited February 19, 2023 by Addicted to music

[bob_m_54]

1 hour ago, vivianbl said:

So, going back to the original post, some of the physics/ electrical theories ( perhaps Ohms ) would suggest that a kettle cord is all that is needed to provide power to Hifi equipment and no amount of fancy expensive cable  is going to improve SQ. 

A "kettle cord" may well be as good as any high priced fancy cable you can buy, at powering your audio equipment. It's generally made to handle high current without any ill effects, and does everything that's needed to supply your gear, with as good a quality power that's available from your wall socket.

 

What else do you want it to do?

[vivianbl]

38 minutes ago, Addicted to music said:

 

You do,  in my teens,  you need the maths and the physics to get into electronics, that was the criteria that was needed.    A lot of the maths that's used in electronics comes from maths formulas that's applied from physics.  And when you go though these stages you realised that maths is very defined and set.  

 

 

 

Its more than ohms law.   Power from the mains is step down and isolated and is converted to DC level that powers your audio circuitry.   The mains is fully isolate and isn't connected in any way to the audio output.   

 

Ive posted this link before many times and on anoher thread today.   A distorted mains simulation where he connects audio devices with.   Note the audio output of each device before and after!  Note the comments he makes in reference to PSU main filter caps.   this is real and its measured.  You don't need my opinion you decide:

 

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/impact-of-ac-distortion-noise-on-audio-equipment.25501/

firstly, You misunderstand my point. It was in reference to a previous comment about the immutable “laws of physics”. It’s the scientific process that lead to a better understanding and explanation of the natural world. The “laws of physics” are a misnomer. 
I am also acutely aware that is much more than Ohms theories and formula impacting on audio output and perception.

Secondly, I am interested that, in your teens maths and physics was needed to get into electronics. So what what level of training in physics and maths is needed to be able to understand, to have a discourse and, perhaps, disagree with others about  audio experiences? 

 

Thirdly, I will read the information in the link as I am genuinely interested in the link between the electronics and audio perception. I have read heaps of stuff on this, so hopefully it will offer me something new.

[Daf]

I asked the question about power conditioners and regenerators and high end power cables… so after much research for those for and against after market power …I bought a new Isotek V5 power conditioner and some elite and optimum power cables and I’ve been running this new gear for about 30 hours now

At first no change at all really to my high end system… disappointing 

however there has been an improvement in the gain … and a better clarity to the system … after the 30 hr run in

for the cost would I have done it ?…. at this stage probably not…. but I hope it continues to run in

 if that’s it well there its about a 10% overall improvement… considering how much my system cost I’ve been told I should be happy with that

 

 

[vivianbl]

1 hour ago, bob_m_54 said:

A "kettle cord" may well be as good as any high priced fancy cable you can buy, at powering your audio equipment. It's generally made to handle high current without any ill effects, and does everything that's needed to supply your gear, with as good a quality power that's available from your wall socket.

 

What else do you want it to do?

There in lies the problem!

 

 The conventional understanding is that it should not make any difference. But… if you are hearing a difference between mains cables at the same price and you prefer one SQ over the other. Do you choose the one you don’t prefer because the conventional argument is there is no difference. I assume most will choose the one they prefer.

Now, if the one you prefer is more expensive then it’s a judgement call based on individual system and circumstances.

 

What my concern in discussion about mains cables is that your good question “ what else do you want it to do” is not even discussed, because some people are adamant the is no difference (laws of physics argument!) and, point blank, discount or deny other people’s experiences.  Then discussion disintegrates.

 

Now, I use a regenerator and found a significant improvement in the performance of my system in my environment. I have also found differences in mains cables within my system. I would really like to understand/ explore possible “scientific”reasons for it. 

[bob_m_54]

53 minutes ago, Daf said:

I asked the question about power conditioners and regenerators and high end power cables… so after much research for those for and against after market power …I bought a new Isotek V5 power conditioner and some elite and optimum power cables and I’ve been running this new gear for about 30 hours now

At first no change at all really to my high end system… disappointing 

however there has been an improvement in the gain … and a better clarity to the system … after the 30 hr run in

for the cost would I have done it ?…. at this stage probably not…. but I hope it continues to run in

 if that’s it well there its about a 10% overall improvement… considering how much my system cost I’ve been told I should be happy with that

 

 

At the end of the day, if you are happy with the end results, that's all that counts...

[The Mad Scientist]

3 hours ago, vivianbl said:

Now, I use a regenerator and found a significant improvement in the performance of my system in my environment. I have also found differences in mains cables within my system. I would really like to understand/ explore possible “scientific”reasons for it. 

 

There are no scientific reasons which hold up other than human biases. The measurements say there is no difference, so the only other source if difference is in the auditory cortex of the listener. You buy a shiny new piece of gear expecting to hear a difference and lo and behold, when you plug it in, you hear a difference.

 

People get really upset when they read/hear this, why is why these sorts of discussions so frequently turn nasty.

 

This is another reason ASR is vilified - it challenges human bias.

 

There was a discussion thread recently, where one poster was claiming to hear differences between interconnects and couldn't understand why (he's an Electrical  Engineer, by the way). After other users helping him with the process of making recordings, null tests verified that there were no audible differences because there were no changes in the signal. Nil, zip, nada, zero. It was all in his head. Sighted cable swapping led him to perceive audible differences.

 

That's why controlled listening/measurement is needed. Human beings make lousy witnesses.

 

 

[vivianbl]

21 hours ago, The Mad Scientist said:

 

There are no scientific reasons which hold up other than human biases. The measurements say there is no difference, so the only other source if difference is in the auditory cortex of the listener. You buy a shiny new piece of gear expecting to hear a difference and lo and behold, when you plug it in, you hear a difference.

 

People get really upset when they read/hear this, why is why these sorts of discussions so frequently turn nasty.

 

This is another reason ASR is vilified - it challenges human bias.

 

There was a discussion thread recently, where one poster was claiming to hear differences between interconnects and couldn't understand why (he's an Electrical  Engineer, by the way). After other users helping him with the process of making recordings, null tests verified that there were no audible differences because there were no changes in the signal. Nil, zip, nada, zero. It was all in his head. Sighted cable swapping led him to perceive audible differences.

 

That's why controlled listening/measurement is needed. Human beings make lousy witnesses.

 

 

I’m sorry, but outright denying what other people experience, because there is no “scientific basis” is the problem. It’s paradoxical that the argument “it’s all in your head”, works both ways. If you don't believe that any difference can exist ( because of the laws of physics) between interconnects or mains cables, then that is what you will hear. Yes expectation bias confirmation bias and group pressure to believe, work both ways. Looks like group pressure was a factor in the example you gave

 

Nevertheless, my point is that if differences are heard, the “it’s all in your head” need not be the only explanation. There could be other “scientific” reasons that could be postulated to explain the difference.  We need to keep exploring that.

 

The regenerator made a significant improvement within my system in my location. There were “scientific” valid reasons for that. Perhaps my system was also deficient in design and that’s why it made a difference!  But it made an easily audible difference. 

 

On the hand maybe I imagined it!

 

Think we have done this to death and the OP has made his decision. I will cease further comment.

[andyr]

On 19/02/2023 at 9:25 AM, The Mad Scientist said:

And in measured SINAD, my DAC is the worst performer when compared with my line and power amps.

 

I've not data-logged my AC line voltage variation, but in routine wiring tests, it has varied from 230 - 249 V.

 

I rest my case.

 

You call yourself a scientist ... I think the appropriate term for a scientist would've been "QED" (rather than the silver-tongued lawyer-speak you used - "I rest my case")!  

 

On 19/02/2023 at 12:30 PM, The Mad Scientist said:

People believe all sorts in respect of power conditioners and regenerators based on the hyperbole spouted in the poular audiophile press and review sites. I have yet to see any measured results which show any tangible/audibe improvement.

 

Well designed audio devices have a high PSRR (power supply rejection ratio) - in short, the incoming mains supply's effects on the audio output should be well below the threshold of audibility. Hence, my first comment, to which some seem to have taken exception.

 

This is science and engineering, folks. There's no magic, voodoo or witchcraft.

 

Your final statement suggests to me the kind of reaction that, say, scientists "well-versed in Newtonian mechanics" thought about Einstein's radical, new theories in the 1910s & 20s.  

 

I would throw in two points:

*  regenerators can deliver a definite benefit by limiting their mains output voltage to a specified number - like 230v - instead of an input voltage of, say, 249v.

 

Of course ... this may not be audible - but it sure will extend the life of any tubed components.

 

*  it is possible to hear the result of using mains filtering.  Whether this difference can be related to the measurements we are able to make ... I cannot comment on.

 

On 19/02/2023 at 12:30 PM, The Mad Scientist said:

If you haven't sorted your room and its interaction with your speakers, anything else is wasted effort.

 

My own view is slightly less sweeping.  

 

If you have a problematic room ... you will most probably still be able to hear differences between different components in your system - but such differences will be accentuated, once you've dealt with your room's problems.

 

21 hours ago, The Mad Scientist said:

The measurements say there is no difference, so the only other source if difference is in the auditory cortex of the listener. You buy a shiny new piece of gear expecting to hear a difference and lo and behold, when you plug it in, you hear a difference.

 

Perhaps "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."!  

 

(By which I mean perhaps there are things we need to measure - which we don't yet know how to - which can account for the audible differences.)

 

[The Mad Scientist]

15 hours ago, andyr said:

You call yourself a scientist ... I think the appropriate term for a scientist would've been "QED" (rather than the silver-tongued lawyer-speak you used - "I rest my case")!  

 

Actually, despite studying Latin once upon a time, I generally refrain from using Latin in English discussions. Outside of the legal and medical professions, it's mostly used by those who wish to outwardly display their internal superiority complex over others.

 

15 hours ago, andyr said:

If you have a problematic room ... you will most probably still be able to hear differences between different components in your system - but such differences will be accentuated, once you've dealt with your room's problems.

 

Perhaps, but my point was that funds spent on power conditioning/regenerating would be far better spent on room treatment if you haven't already done so. Every room is problematic by virtue of its physical dimensions. There will be at least 3 nodes in the bass response, plus a whole load of  reflection issues at higher frequencies.

 

15 hours ago, andyr said:

(By which I mean perhaps there are things we need to measure - which we don't yet know how to - which can account for the audible differences.)

 

Aaaah, the standard "Russell's Teapot" audiophile response....

 

We're talking about basic, well understood electrical stuff here, not Special Relativity vs Newtonian Mechanics.

 

Human hearing is pretty poor relative to the capabilities of measurement devices. If it's audible, it's measurable. If there's no measureable difference, then there's no audible difference.

 

Low noise precision instruments seem to cope OK with mains variations - the manufacturers don't require fancy mains filters to ensure their products work. They design them to function with normal mains supplies. Audio Precision doesn't require special mains regeneration/filtering or fancy mains cables to ensure their analysers perform according to spec. Why would "high-end" audio equipment need such frippery? Unless of course, the design is so crap that it can only function with a perfectly stable voltage, perfectly sinusoidal mains supply. An unlikley scenario. Mains purifying/regenerating stuff is purely designed, manufactured and marketed to part fools from their money.

 

I'm not going to continue to argue with the babblings of those whose sole purpose in this discussion is to try to justify their purchasing decisions to others via hand-waving pseudo-science, so I'm out of this discussion.

 

Edited February 20, 2023 by The Mad Scientist