Power conditioner or regenerator

[The Mad Scientist]

16 hours ago, vivianbl said:

Looks like group pressure was a factor in the example you gave

 

Just exactly how did you come to that conclusion? Recordings of the audio outputs with each cable compared to the others gave a null result. What has that to do with group pressure? People's opinions don't change irrefutable facts...... There were no measured differences, but somehow there could be audible differences and group pressure made the OP change his mind?

 

I take some small comfort from the fact that the people who cling to impossible notions that defy science and engineering aren't responsible for designing or building anything upon which lives depend.

Edited February 20, 2023 by The Mad Scientist

[AussieMick]

On 21/2/2023 at 10:11 AM, The Mad Scientist said:

 

Just exactly how did you come to that conclusion? Recordings of the audio outputs with each cable compared to the others gave a null result. What has that to do with group pressure? People's opinions don't change irrefutable facts...... There were no measured differences, but somehow there could be audible differences and group pressure made the OP change his mind?

 

I take some small comfort from the fact that the people who cling to impossible notions that defy science and engineering aren't responsible for designing or building anything upon which lives depend.

Perhaps some time spent listening to the likes of Darren Myers, Nuno Vittorino and Mark Jenkins (all engineers working at an extremely high level in audio) might sway your thinking? They all talk about what good power cables and conditioners/regenerators can do and how they do it. They talk science and measurement. 

[The Mad Scientist]

20 hours ago, AussieMick said:

Perhaps some time spent listening to the likes of Darren Myers, Nuno Vittorino and Mark Jenkins (all engineers working at an extremely high level in audio) might sway your thinking? They all talk about what good power cables and conditioners/regenerators can do and how they do it. They talk science and measurement. 

Got any links I can read with measurements?

 

It's well known what power conditioners and regenerators can do to the mains, but the point is that for well-designed audio devices it doesn't matter. I've yet to see any measurements where mains is shown to have any measureable effect on the output of an audio device. And that is what really matters.

Edited March 5, 2023 by The Mad Scientist

[AussieMick]

No reading, no, but listening. The Hifi Podcast with Darren and Duncan has covered power and how it affects upstream components often. Darko has interviews Nuno from Innuos where talks about power and noise, and Paul McGowan is on a few podcasts talking it through. They all tend to be saying the sane things about power cabkes for example, where they make huge differences in how a system sounds depending on how well they drain RF for example. I think just as the digital cable talk is about electrical noise not data, the power cable talk isn’t about power reaching its destination. Maybe this is a hood place to start?
 

https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/the-hifi-podcast-with-darren-and-duncan/id1532674642?i=1000513440893

[Pim]

My findings.

 

For quite some years I've wanted to try out a streamer into AES/EBU in my system. I use Devialet dual monos and up until now was feeding it through the USB input from my Mac mini, running as a Roon endpoint (I have Roon on  a NUC). I used an MIT USB cable, which I found to sound nicer than the Curious USB I had a few years back. I know this sounds controversial, but keep in mind that the MIT cable does have some filtering blocks in it, so whatever goes on in there is what I guess has an impact. 

 

Anyway, I've been testing a Holo Audio Red. Hugo from Indie Hifi sent me one on a money back trial. The reason I went for the Red is Goldensound's measurements. Very low jitter and very low noise. One person commented on the fact that those measurements were taken with the Red connected to a 3 grand power conditioner, so I spoke with my local dealer (Toma in Tweed Heads) and he was happy for me to take home a power conditioner to try. 

 

I got the Red first and did a blind AB test. I programmed my system to only use the two inputs I'm using and then group those two in Roon. I do a quick test at 1kHz for any SPL differences and off I go. The Devialet has one button that cycles through the inputs in order, so all I need to do to make my test 'blind' is to press the button a number of times and there's no way for me to know which one of the two I'm listening to anymore. I then listen and decide which I like more. I'm not interested in 'accuracy'. I like it a bit on the warm side, so I can imagine my choice of 'best' could very well be the one with a bit of euphonic distortion.

 

I found no difference between the Red and my USB setup. "That's a 2 grand saving" I thought. I nearly sent the Red back right away.

 

But, I had already planned to get the power conditioner from Geoff and he had also asked me to try his Cary Audio streamer against the Red. Just for fun. When I went to pick it up he told me he'd give me a 2.5k Furman power conditioner because, in his words, if he'd send me home with the top model, that would '**** me'. 

I wired up my own room and I have dedicated power circuits, so I didn't expect much from a conditioner. I also live in a small town with no industry and during week days, most people are at work, so you wouldn't expect much wrong with the local power anyway. Anyway, I took the challenge to try the top model Furman, because I really believed in my dedicated circuits.

 

He also gave me a whole bunch of power cables and a supply cable with DC filtering. The whole lot retails for about 15 grand, excluding the Cary streamer.

 

Long story short; I'm buying the lot (not the Cary). It makes THAT much of an improvement to my system. If that means that the power supplies in the Devialets aren't any good, I don't care. This is how I've always wanted my system to sound and that's all that matters. Initially I was going to try each component separately and see what I can do without without losing that improvement, but I've decided not to mess with something this good.

 

I'm also keeping the Red, because now I can actually hear an improvement between the Red and the Mac mini over USB. So I'm in for one hell of a lot of money. So what improved so much that I'm willing to spend this kind of cash?

 

I've always hated sibilance. I guess my whole reason for getting into this hobby started with that hatred of sibilance. So that's one of the first things I focus on. To my ears and estimation (or call it a wild guess), the insertion of the power conditioner got me to 80% of sibilance free sound. The Red got rid of another 10%. I'm not sure how to get to the ultimate. I've heard sibilance on systems costing a couple of hundred grand, so I assume it's just part of some recordings and inevitable. But there is much more going on. I can discern details at much lower listening levels, even when I'm just on the couch outside the sweet spot. There's more punch, even at lower listening levels. I turned my subs down 1dB because, I guess, my main speakers go lower. 

It also sounds more relaxed, but with more detail and separation in the soundstage. Some would say that 'a veil was lifted'. I'm more inclined to believe that the detail was always there, but masked by the sibilance. Either way, it works for me.

 

Now, How do I know I'm not just imagining this?

 

Well, the Red / USB test is blind, so that one can't be disputed. The Furman though... to be honest, it doesn't need a blind test. It's so obvious. My best mate was here a few days back and he initially told me that he wanted to hear the system with and without all the gear. He only listened for a few songs and knew that would just be a waste of time. He heard the improvements too. Easily. Below is a copy of a WhatsApp message he sent me the next day:

 

I still cannot get over the sound improvement after listening to your system yesterday afternoon!
It has literally blown me away - WOW - is all I can say.
It has made me think about my own system now

 

I also had a bit of a situation a few days before he came that really brought it home for me. My dog has an injured back leg. Because we live in a high set home, he needs me to carry him down the stairs. So I moved my mattress into the living room so I can help him out should he want to go for a wee in the middle of the night. The night after I installed all the gear, I happened to bump into one of my speakers in the dark coming back from such wee. It wobbled a bit. The day after I had another mate come in for a listen. He sat in the listening seat and I sat on the couch. He liked it, but didn't comment that it was fantastic. That night I decided not do any critical listening but just turn the lights down and just play some songs I love. After all, it's all about the music. Well, I was confused. I literally thought I had imagined all that improvement. Surely I wasn't that stupid? I'm very well aware of confirmation bias, but I had been expecting to 'confirm' there wouldn't be an improvement, so surely? Something was off. Clearly. I sat there for an hour and a half, going from song to song and not enjoying much of it. It still had most of that smoothness, but lost that holographic sound that convinced me to spend 15k. In the end I found the culprit; I had turned the right hand speaker when I bumped into it the night before. It turned 50mm on its axis. Had I not turned the lights down I would have seen that right away. I'm a bit disappointed my mate didn't see this when he spent several hours in my listening seat... 

What this whole episode taught me though is that I'm not easily fooled and that I do listen properly. I already knew you can't just buy good sound. Setup is king.

 

So what about conditioning versus regeneration?

Paul McGowan from PS Audio says that yes, a conditioner cleans up the sound, but it robs the life from the sound. He explained it in a recent Youtube video as the difference between hearing the strumming of a guitar string and hearing it vibrate afterwards or not hearing that. I guess we called that transients? Well, I tried to fault the system on this very subject last night and I just couldn't. 

 

Ever since I heard the original Vivid Audio Giya G3 I've been wanting a pair of G2's. They would be the right size for my room and I've not heard any speaker sound as natural as the vivid. I also have blamed my large untreated ceiling for much of what was missing in my system. Now, I'm so happy with my sound, I'm not sure I want to spend 80k on a pair of G2's. I also don't feel a need for more room treatment, even though room treatment in my view is even more important than setup.

 

All I need now is to make some shelving to put all that gear on. As it stands now, it looks like ****.

 

 

 

Edited September 10, 2023 by Pim
spelling

[Ceeker]

On 10/9/2023 at 3:16 PM, Pim said:

My findings.

 

For quite some years I've wanted to try out a streamer into AES/EBU in my system. I use Devialet dual monos and up until now was feeding it through the USB input from my Mac mini, running as a Roon endpoint (I have Roon on  a NUC). I used an MIT USB cable, which I found to sound nicer than the Curious USB I had a few years back. I know this sounds controversial, but keep in mind that the MIT cable does have some filtering blocks in it, so whatever goes on in there is what I guess has an impact. 

 

Anyway, I've been testing a Holo Audio Red. Hugo from Indie Hifi sent me one on a money back trial. The reason I went for the Red is Goldensound's measurements. Very low jitter and very low noise. One person commented on the fact that those measurements were taken with the Red connected to a 3 grand power conditioner, so I spoke with my local dealer (Toma in Tweed Heads) and he was happy for me to take home a power conditioner to try. 

 

I got the Red first and did a blind AB test. I programmed my system to only use the two inputs I'm using and then group those two in Roon. I do a quick test at 1kHz for any SPL differences and off I go. The Devialet has one button that cycles through the inputs in order, so all I need to do to make my test 'blind' is to press the button a number of times and there's no way for me to know which one of the two I'm listening to anymore. I then listen and decide which I like more. I'm not interested in 'accuracy'. I like it a bit on the warm side, so I can imagine my choice of 'best' could very well be the one with a bit of euphonic distortion.

 

I found no difference between the Red and my USB setup. "That's a 2 grand saving" I thought. I nearly sent the Red back right away.

 

But, I had already planned to get the power conditioner from Geoff and he had also asked me to try his Cary Audio streamer against the Red. Just for fun. When I went to pick it up he told me he'd give me a 2.5k Furman power conditioner because, in his words, if he'd send me home with the top model, that would '**** me'. 

I wired up my own room and I have dedicated power circuits, so I didn't expect much from a conditioner. I also live in a small town with no industry and during week days, most people are at work, so you wouldn't expect much wrong with the local power anyway. Anyway, I took the challenge to try the top model Furman, because I really believed in my dedicated circuits.

 

He also gave me a whole bunch of power cables and a supply cable with DC filtering. The whole lot retails for about 15 grand, excluding the Cary streamer.

 

Long story short; I'm buying the lot (not the Cary). It makes THAT much of an improvement to my system. If that means that the power supplies in the Devialets aren't any good, I don't care. This is how I've always wanted my system to sound and that's all that matters. Initially I was going to try each component separately and see what I can do without without losing that improvement, but I've decided not to mess with something this good.

 

I'm also keeping the Red, because now I can actually hear an improvement between the Red and the Mac mini over USB. So I'm in for one hell of a lot of money. So what improved so much that I'm willing to spend this kind of cash?

 

I've always hated sibilance. I guess my whole reason for getting into this hobby started with that hatred of sibilance. So that's one of the first things I focus on. To my ears and estimation (or call it a wild guess), the insertion of the power conditioner got me to 80% of sibilance free sound. The Red got rid of another 10%. I'm not sure how to get to the ultimate. I've heard sibilance on systems costing a couple of hundred grand, so I assume it's just part of some recordings and inevitable. But there is much more going on. I can discern details at much lower listening levels, even when I'm just on the couch outside the sweet spot. There's more punch, even at lower listening levels. I turned my subs down 1dB because, I guess, my main speakers go lower. 

It also sounds more relaxed, but with more detail and separation in the soundstage. Some would say that 'a veil was lifted'. I'm more inclined to believe that the detail was always there, but masked by the sibilance. Either way, it works for me.

 

Now, How do I know I'm not just imagining this?

 

Well, the Red / USB test is blind, so that one can't be disputed. The Furman though... to be honest, it doesn't need a blind test. It's so obvious. My best mate was here a few days back and he initially told me that he wanted to hear the system with and without all the gear. He only listened for a few songs and knew that would just be a waste of time. He heard the improvements too. Easily. Below is a copy of a WhatsApp message he sent me the next day:

 

I still cannot get over the sound improvement after listening to your system yesterday afternoon!
It has literally blown me away - WOW - is all I can say.
It has made me think about my own system now

 

I also had a bit of a situation a few days before he came that really brought it home for me. My dog has an injured back leg. Because we live in a high set home, he needs me to carry him down the stairs. So I moved my mattress into the living room so I can help him out should he want to go for a wee in the middle of the night. The night after I installed all the gear, I happened to bump into one of my speakers in the dark coming back from such wee. It wobbled a bit. The day after I had another mate come in for a listen. He sat in the listening seat and I sat on the couch. He liked it, but didn't comment that it was fantastic. That night I decided not do any critical listening but just turn the lights down and just play some songs I love. After all, it's all about the music. Well, I was confused. I literally thought I had imagined all that improvement. Surely I wasn't that stupid? I'm very well aware of confirmation bias, but I had been expecting to 'confirm' there wouldn't be an improvement, so surely? Something was off. Clearly. I sat there for an hour and a half, going from song to song and not enjoying much of it. It still had most of that smoothness, but lost that holographic sound that convinced me to spend 15k. In the end I found the culprit; I had turned the right hand speaker when I bumped into it the night before. It turned 50mm on its axis. Had I not turned the lights down I would have seen that right away. I'm a bit disappointed my mate didn't see this when he spent several hours in my listening seat... 

What this whole episode taught me though is that I'm not easily fooled and that I do listen properly. I already knew you can't just buy good sound. Setup is king.

 

So what about conditioning versus regeneration?

Paul McGowan from PS Audio says that yes, a conditioner cleans up the sound, but it robs the life from the sound. He explained it in a recent Youtube video as the difference between hearing the strumming of a guitar string and hearing it vibrate afterwards or not hearing that. I guess we called that transients? Well, I tried to fault the system on this very subject last night and I just couldn't. 

 

Ever since I heard the original Vivid Audio Giya G3 I've been wanting a pair of G2's. They would be the right size for my room and I've not heard any speaker sound as natural as the vivid. I also have blamed my large untreated ceiling for much of what was missing in my system. Now, I'm so happy with my sound, I'm not sure I want to spend 80k on a pair of G2's. I also don't feel a need for more room treatment, even though room treatment in my view is even more important than setup.

 

All I need now is to make some shelving to put all that gear on. As it stands now, it looks like ****.

 

 

 

Just wondering what model power conditioner you have, and are you still happy with it?

[075Congo]

Before you outlay your money on power conditioners/ regenerators I would commission an electrician to put in a dedicated power line for your audio needs. In my case my wiring was 35 years old and putting in fresh wire/ power plugs was money very well spent. Cost from memory was under $1K........nothing special re the wiring and output points........just NEW!

Also invest in a good quality contact enhancer.....I use Stabilant 22 but lots of others available.

Edited December 9, 2023 by 075Congo
More info

[Ceeker]

2 hours ago, 075Congo said:

Before you outlay your money on power conditioners/ regenerators I would commission an electrician to put in a dedicated power line for your audio needs. In my case my wiring was 35 years old and putting in fresh wire/ power plugs was money very well spent. Cost from memory was under $1K........nothing special re the wiring and output points........just NEW!

Also invest in a good quality contact enhancer.....I use Stabilant 22 but lots of others available.

Thanks for the advice Congo.
Unfortunately, we will be moving soon so not much point putting in new wiring.
Contact enhancer is definitely on the list, been trying to wade through research and reviews etc. 
How did you come across Stabilant 22?

[075Congo]

Came across Stabilant 22 in a review years ago.....sourced it online and have been using it for some years now. About $100 for 30ml and works well on all types of audio connections.

Cheers

[Ceeker]

Thanks, will give it a try. Did you get a chance to compare it to any other brands?

[075Congo]

Tried it against CAIG plus Furutech and Graphene contact enhancers........as good as them but much easier to apply........graphene is too messy to use.

[Pim]

On 8/12/2023 at 7:54 AM, Ceeker said:

Just wondering what model power conditioner you have, and are you still happy with it?

https://www.melbournehifi.com.au/products/furman-itref16-symmetrically-ac-power-conditioner?variant=42721527464093&currency=AUD&utm_medium=product_sync&utm_source=google&utm_content=sag_organic&utm_campaign=sag_organic

 

It's the one in the link above. I was going to link to the page on the Furman site, but it seems to have disappeared. 

 

Am I still happy with it? Absolutely!

[Ceeker]

Excellent info, thanks so much for your help, really appreciate it

[Ceeker]

On 11/12/2023 at 2:26 AM, Pim said:

https://www.melbournehifi.com.au/products/furman-itref16-symmetrically-ac-power-conditioner?variant=42721527464093&currency=AUD&utm_medium=product_sync&utm_source=google&utm_content=sag_organic&utm_campaign=sag_organic

 

It's the one in the link above. I was going to link to the page on the Furman site, but it seems to have disappeared. 

 

Am I still happy with it? Absolutely!

Thanks for the link. Glad to hear you are still enjoying it! Definitely something on my radar for the near future 

Edited December 11, 2023 by Ceeker

[ppaul]

The old chestnut rears its head again, my 0.02c run a dedicated power line to your room, then some acoustic treatment, then you’ll be able to at least hear the difference if any, the dedicated power line was the best thing for my system, I don’t need a conditioner or regenerator, I run my power amp directly to the wall and the rest of the system to an Isotek Sirus board, I use the Optimum cable for power Amp, Elite feeds the Preamp and Sirius, Sequel feeds other components, black background is Awesome, I can turn the Amp up full and no noise in the line level inputs, of course the phono stage is noisy above certain levels but when the music kicks in… anyway all the best

[075Congo]

Ditto for the "old chestnut" of installing a dedicated powerline and the other suggestions for your listening space. Do that before you go into the big $$ of power regenerators.

[Ceeker]

2 hours ago, ppaul said:

The old chestnut rears its head again, my 0.02c run a dedicated power line to your room, then some acoustic treatment, then you’ll be able to at least hear the difference if any, the dedicated power line was the best thing for my system, I don’t need a conditioner or regenerator, I run my power amp directly to the wall and the rest of the system to an Isotek Sirus board, I use the Optimum cable for power Amp, Elite feeds the Preamp and Sirius, Sequel feeds other components, black background is Awesome, I can turn the Amp up full and no noise in the line level inputs, of course the phono stage is noisy above certain levels but when the music kicks in… anyway all the best

As mentioned earlier in the thread, we are moving in the next few months, so room treatments and dedicated lines are not really an option.
Thanks for your input regarding the power boards and cables.
I currently have Isotek initium cables on the power amps (Rogue m180 monos) and a premier cable on the sub (Kef KC-62).
I tried the premier cable on the streamer/dac (Auralic Altair G 2.1), but did not make an audible difference like the cables did on the power amps and sub. I'm guessing it has a very good power supply.
What sort of difference did you notice with the more expensive Isotek power cables?

[Assisi]

2 hours ago, ppaul said:

I don’t need a conditioner or regenerator

If you have not at least tried a power conditioner or regenerator how then can you say that you do not need either? They are different to each other.  I have both a conditioner and a dedicated source.  Both provided a benefit.  The conditioner more so. I also have a whole of house regenerator.  Audio outcome???  Other benefits yes. 

John

[ppaul]

1 hour ago, Assisi said:

If you have not at least tried a power conditioner or regenerator how then can you say that you do not need either?

Because I’ve had the Isotek Sigmas on loan as well as a PS Audio power plant 3, the cost to value ratio wasn’t worth it in my space (I bought a Gibson LP instead) 

 

2 hours ago, Ceeker said:

What sort of difference did you notice with the more expensive Isotek power cables?

Succinctly, an even more blacker background 

[Neo]

Never mind 

 

Edited December 29, 2023 by Neo

[Ceeker]

I currently have a Shunyata AU8 (PS8 with the Shunyata Defender built in) on loan, retail $3900.00.
To my surprise I heard very minimal improvement  over the Thor Smart powerboard I am using as a temporary measure until I can find a permanent power solution, retail $265.00.

I really had to concentrate to hear any difference in the highs and midrange, although there was a definite tightening and deepening of the bass through the sub.
I am under the impression that the AU8 is mostly a passive solution with only minimal active noise reduction, so I am hoping for a more noticeable improvement with an active unit like the Isotek Aquarius.

[Bosco]

I’ve been very happy with my Isotek Aquarius EVO3. I have a Shunyata Apha NR on my hi fi and an Isotek Optimum feeds the Aquarius on my content creator desk top set up. I think they need a good power cable to do them justice. The V5 version looks interesting but I don’t think a 10K upgrade for 2 will be worth it for me. I’ve found the Aquarius a worthwhile improvement over a cheap Thor board.

[Neo]

2 hours ago, Ceeker said:

I currently have a Shunyata AU8 (PS8 with the Shunyata Defender built in) on loan, retail $3900.00.
To my surprise I heard very minimal improvement  over the Thor Smart powerboard I am using as a temporary measure until I can find a permanent power solution, retail $265.00.

I really had to concentrate to hear any difference in the highs and midrange, although there was a definite tightening and deepening of the bass through the sub.
I am under the impression that the AU8 is mostly a passive solution with only minimal active noise reduction, so I am hoping for a more noticeable improvement with an active unit like the Isotek Aquarius.

What power cord are you using from the wall to the shunyata AU8?

Neo

[Ceeker]

What power cord are you using from the wall to the shunyata AU8?

Isotek Premier

[Neo]

5 minutes ago, Ceeker said:

Isotek Premier

Borrow something better as that’s the bottleneck for the shunyata powerboard.  Something with a heavier gauge and overall better quality. There’s a good reason why isotek cables get traded here more than any other brand especially premier and initium models. 

Neo

Edited December 30, 2023 by Neo