Power conditioner or regenerator

[POV]

20 minutes ago, Ceeker said:

Yeah... never going to get that past the boss!

Honestly I can’t see how that could help anyway, the frequencies at which wall panels are operating would be far above that which is likely causing your  vibration issues.

 

I think it would be a really good idea to try to localise the issue.  One pathway you may want to look at is adding a sound base or vibration damping feet to your sub.  SVS make an affordable solution.

 

I get the potential impact of vibration on your valve amplifiers, but for a fully solid state electronic component to be impacted to the point where it is making your system sound ‘screeching’ sounds like something is very wrong.  I would be getting the Aurilic unit checked.

Edited January 30, 2024 by POV

[Ceeker]

3 minutes ago, POV said:

Honestly I can’t see how that could help anyway, the frequencies at which wall panels are operating would be far above that which is likely causing your  vibration issues.

 

I think it would be a really good idea to try to localise the issue.  One pathway you may want to look at is adding a sound base or vibration damping feet to your sub.  SVS make an affordable solution.

 

I get the potential impact of vibration on your valve amplifiers, but for a fully solid state electronic component to be impacted to the point where it is making your system sound ‘screeching’ sounds like something is very wrong.  I would be getting the Aurilic unit checked.

Its not exactly a screeching sound, just a volume lift around 3-4k that gets worse at high volumes. "Edginess" is a good description.
As I have experimented with vibration reduction, it has gradually reduced.

[POV]

43 minutes ago, Ceeker said:

Its not exactly a screeching sound, just a volume lift around 3-4k that gets worse at high volumes. "Edginess" is a good description.
As I have experimented with vibration reduction, it has gradually reduced.

 

OK....but that still sounds very odd to me.  In reality, with surface mounted components and PCBs that are properly mounted in the chassis for components that have no moving parts, they should be effectively immune to impact of vibration.  You ought to be able to test this for yourself by turning the volume up to listening level, playing a recorded silence (easy to find) and then firmly tap the chassis of the component.  If you are not hearing anything then it's unlikely to be a component that is impacted by vibration...

 

I guess that (in theory) a DAC could be impacted if the clock crystal was so impacted by severe vibration as to cause error inducing phase variations (IE causing jitter) but in a well designed component this seems extremely unlikely.

 

As I say if you have been able to conclusively demonstrate that the Aurilic unit is so impacted by vibration to be causing this noticable deleterious effect I would be getting in contact with the manufacturer or distributor.  The most likely explanation is that there is something wrong with the component.

 

[vivianbl]

2 hours ago, Ceeker said:

I was definitely considering tube damping but was shying away from it as many say it can suffocate dynamics.
"Edginess" is a great way to describe the issue, though mine occasionally veers into screechiness.
I had a look at Herbies website, may I ask which of the 3 models are you using?
https://herbiesaudiolab.com/collections/tube-dampers

Also, did you try damping the input tubes? On the Herbies site they recommend trying this first.

 

Just looked up the website.I use the HAL-0 111 stabiliser. Various sizes to suit different valve. A bit shocked at the increased prices. Got mine on 5/6 years ago about half that price! 30 day trial period and their communication/ support very good. 

I went for these because I didn’t want the valves “ damped” as such so eschewed the usual/ common rubber ring type dampers and the nylon type C rings they also have. Theoretically, aiming to “drain away” micro vibration/ resonance!.

Interestingly they refer to the HAL range as “stabilisors” and the nylon padded ones as “ dampers”!

 

Anyway, they did the job!

later I got ones to fit the driver tubes ( 6H23N-EB) on my mono power amps out of curiosity and found that they audibly improved the SQ so ended up getting 2 more for the MM phono pre. That was very effective SQ wise. ( Photos)

Late Last year I was trying out various 1950/1960s 6922/ E88CC driver tubes and found that I preferred those without the C rings as they made the sound too “lean” for my liking.  

By the way,  I tested the 300B again without the C rings  and the edginess/ smearing returned! So put them back on!  Overall SQ was also better.

 

Another note- found that not just vibrations that result in the edginess/ smearing but also “out of sync” reflections within the room that absorber/ diffusers in critical positions  can negate. Another story!

[Ceeker]

3 hours ago, vivianbl said:

Just looked up the website.I use the HAL-0 111 stabiliser. Various sizes to suit different valve. A bit shocked at the increased prices. Got mine on 5/6 years ago about half that price! 30 day trial period and their communication/ support very good. 

I went for these because I didn’t want the valves “ damped” as such so eschewed the usual/ common rubber ring type dampers and the nylon type C rings they also have. Theoretically, aiming to “drain away” micro vibration/ resonance!.

Interestingly they refer to the HAL range as “stabilisors” and the nylon padded ones as “ dampers”!

 

Anyway, they did the job!

later I got ones to fit the driver tubes ( 6H23N-EB) on my mono power amps out of curiosity and found that they audibly improved the SQ so ended up getting 2 more for the MM phono pre. That was very effective SQ wise. ( Photos)

Late Last year I was trying out various 1950/1960s 6922/ E88CC driver tubes and found that I preferred those without the C rings as they made the sound too “lean” for my liking.  

By the way,  I tested the 300B again without the C rings  and the edginess/ smearing returned! So put them back on!  Overall SQ was also better.

 

Another note- found that not just vibrations that result in the edginess/ smearing but also “out of sync” reflections within the room that absorber/ diffusers in critical positions  can negate. Another story!

Thanks so much for your detailed reply and excellent photos. extremely helpful! Really appreciate your advice!
One last question. I was thinking I may try a less costly tube damper prior to investing in the HAL-0 111.
Did you try any rubber/silicone dampers prior to the HAL-0 111?
I know they have a poor reputation, but I thought they may at least let me know if I am heading in the right direction before talking to the bank manager.

Edited January 31, 2024 by Ceeker

[Ceeker]

5 hours ago, POV said:

 

OK....but that still sounds very odd to me.  In reality, with surface mounted components and PCBs that are properly mounted in the chassis for components that have no moving parts, they should be effectively immune to impact of vibration.  You ought to be able to test this for yourself by turning the volume up to listening level, playing a recorded silence (easy to find) and then firmly tap the chassis of the component.  If you are not hearing anything then it's unlikely to be a component that is impacted by vibration...

 

I guess that (in theory) a DAC could be impacted if the clock crystal was so impacted by severe vibration as to cause error inducing phase variations (IE causing jitter) but in a well designed component this seems extremely unlikely.

 

As I say if you have been able to conclusively demonstrate that the Aurilic unit is so impacted by vibration to be causing this noticable deleterious effect I would be getting in contact with the manufacturer or distributor.  The most likely explanation is that there is something wrong with the component.

 

I did try another DAC to check if the Auralic was at fault, and found the same issue.

[vivianbl]

1 hour ago, Ceeker said:

Thanks so much for your detailed reply and excellent photos. extremely helpful! Really appreciate your advice!
One last question. I was thinking I may try a less costly tube damper prior to investing in the HAL-0 111.
Did you try any rubber/silicone dampers prior to the HAL-0 111?
I know they have a poor reputation, but I thought they may at least let me know if I am heading in the right direction before talking to the bank manager.

I did try  rubber type rings and did not like the SQ result, and not sure it resolved the edginess/ smearing issue.

 

That’s why I decided to bypass “damper” and give the HAL type “stabiliser”. 30 day trial was helpful. They offered to extend trial period as well. So gave it a go!

[Robbiefest]

On 19/02/2023 at 8:54 AM, The Mad Scientist said:

Honestly, if your hi-fi gear shows any appreciable improvement from power conditioning/regenerating then you need different gear. Well designed equipment cares not about the quality of the mains......

I've got a hum and buzz in my power line. I hear it on my computer / studio setup and I hear it in my main sound system which is made up of some nice gear. I need to get rid of the hum. My experience with conditioning power boards is they thin the sound out, clean it up. I'm not looking for that. So what would you recommend if conditioners or regenerators are not the way? I live in a block of flats, just to add to the picture. 

[The Mad Scientist]

16 hours ago, Robbiefest said:

I've got a hum and buzz in my power line. I hear it on my computer / studio setup and I hear it in my main sound system which is made up of some nice gear. I need to get rid of the hum. My experience with conditioning power boards is they thin the sound out, clean it up. I'm not looking for that. So what would you recommend if conditioners or regenerators are not the way? I live in a block of flats, just to add to the picture. 

OK, the hum/buzz isn't "in" your power line. It sounds like you have a  ground loop issue and a power conditioner isn't going to sort that. 

Ground loops can be a pain to troubleshoot, but with perseverance, they can be eliminated.

 

Here's a useful resource that might help: https://www.sct.com.tw/articles/4-effective-approaches-that-eliminate-ground-loop-video-audio-interference

 

They can be particularly problematic where PCs are concerned. In my office setup, the PC is connected to my DAC via S/PDIF. I had a really loud ground loop hum with it which was easy to fix with an isolating transformer installed in the coax connecting them. I made my own transformer out of an ethernet transformer from a surplus PoE injector, so it wasn't an expensive fix.

 

Whatever you do, don't rely on 3-pin to 2-pin adapters or any other means of defeating the earthing of an electrical device. Equipment earths are provided for safety reasons and messing with them can kill.

[Robbiefest]

3 hours ago, The Mad Scientist said:

OK, the hum/buzz isn't "in" your power line. It sounds like you have a  ground loop issue and a power conditioner isn't going to sort that. 

Ground loops can be a pain to troubleshoot, but with perseverance, they can be eliminated.

 

Here's a useful resource that might help: https://www.sct.com.tw/articles/4-effective-approaches-that-eliminate-ground-loop-video-audio-interference

 

They can be particularly problematic where PCs are concerned. In my office setup, the PC is connected to my DAC via S/PDIF. I had a really loud ground loop hum with it which was easy to fix with an isolating transformer installed in the coax connecting them. I made my own transformer out of an ethernet transformer from a surplus PoE injector, so it wasn't an expensive fix.

 

Whatever you do, don't rely on 3-pin to 2-pin adapters or any other means of defeating the earthing of an electrical device. Equipment earths are provided for safety reasons and messing with them can kill.

Thanks for your reply  which is very much appreciated. 

 

I figured it was a ground hum and in the power circuit of my home unit as my computer system and hifi system, which are on the same circuit, have the same hum. I have bought an Ifi ground eliminator https://addictedtoaudio.com.au/products/ifi-audio-gnd-defender?variant=39246916059270&utm_content=blend_feed&utm_medium=blend&utm_source=google&currency=AUD&utm_source=google&utm_medium=blend&utm_campaign=35709&gad_source=1 which did nothing to rectify the issue. 

 

I know of removing the ground wire but I haven't and wouldn't go there for safety reasons. Having said that I have 1 preamp that I've tried and it's only wired 2 pin, not 3 pin, but it's actually the noisiest of my 3 preamps. My parasound is the least noisy , but least detailed. I also have OAD gear, from Melbourne, and whilst it's better, I prefer the sound of my other preamp which is Advance Paris. 

 

I just had an electrician come to my building half an hour ago and I asked him. He was very perplexed. 

 

With thanks

Robert

 

[The Mad Scientist]

9 hours ago, Robbiefest said:

Thanks for your reply  which is very much appreciated. 

 

I figured it was a ground hum and in the power circuit of my home unit as my computer system and hifi system, which are on the same circuit, have the same hum. I have bought an Ifi ground eliminator https://addictedtoaudio.com.au/products/ifi-audio-gnd-defender?variant=39246916059270&utm_content=blend_feed&utm_medium=blend&utm_source=google&currency=AUD&utm_source=google&utm_medium=blend&utm_campaign=35709&gad_source=1 which did nothing to rectify the issue. 

 

I know of removing the ground wire but I haven't and wouldn't go there for safety reasons. Having said that I have 1 preamp that I've tried and it's only wired 2 pin, not 3 pin, but it's actually the noisiest of my 3 preamps. My parasound is the least noisy , but least detailed. I also have OAD gear, from Melbourne, and whilst it's better, I prefer the sound of my other preamp which is Advance Paris. 

 

I just had an electrician come to my building half an hour ago and I asked him. He was very perplexed. 

 

With thanks

Robert

 

I saw listings for the IFi ground defender when I was looking for a good resource to explain earth loops. I'm not entirely convinced on their compliance with electrical safety requirements, especially here in the UK. In active use, it would certainly fail a Portable Appliance Test.  It's limited 200 Amp "Surge Overload Rating" also wouldn't satisfy BS7671's requirements for devices to handle the Prospective Fault Current. It would delay the failure of a fuse in a fault and who knows what would happen to it if it was asked to pass >1 kA under fault condition. There are much safer ways to resolve ground loops.

 

Did your electrician take any measurements while he was there? One suggestion would be to check the earth loop impedance at different outlets to make sure all of the earthing is good. Any large variations certainly won't help. 

[parrasaw]

On 15/09/2024 at 10:39 AM, Robbiefest said:

I've got a hum and buzz in my power line. I hear it on my computer / studio setup and I hear it in my main sound system which is made up of some nice gear. I need to get rid of the hum. My experience with conditioning power boards is they thin the sound out, clean it up. I'm not looking for that. So what would you recommend if conditioners or regenerators are not the way? I live in a block of flats, just to add to the picture. 

Some time in the last 12 months I think that I saw Steve Huff (HiFiHuff) discuss a powerboard/conditioner which made a big difference to noisy lines where he lived.

Will see if I can find the video and pas it on to you.

Hopefully Huff, but if it was someone else, I will try to find the reference/video.

 

Found it. Steve Huff, and many others have reviewed it very favourably:

Puritan Audio Labs PSM156.

Made in England.

Not sure about compliance with Australian Standards etc, but worth a look to see if it may be worth exploring further?

 

Edited September 16, 2024 by parrasaw

[David A]

On 15/09/2024 at 10:39 AM, Robbiefest said:

I've got a hum and buzz in my power line. I hear it on my computer / studio setup and I hear it in my main sound system which is made up of some nice gear. I need to get rid of the hum. My experience with conditioning power boards is they thin the sound out, clean it up. I'm not looking for that. So what would you recommend if conditioners or regenerators are not the way? I live in a block of flats, just to add to the picture. 

 

Simply having a good sparky run dedicated 15a lines back to your distribution board would likely fix the problem. That is also an opportunity to use some better quality in-wall cable, of which there are several code-compliant options. Running dedicated lines to my system wasn't an option to retrofit in my inner city apartment, so I went with a Gigawatt PC-3 SE Evo conditioner. That said, I plan to sell the Gigawatt and go with a high end Distribution board made of panzerholz in my next system.

[Robbiefest]

12 hours ago, David A said:

 

Simply having a good sparky run dedicated 15a lines back to your distribution board would likely fix the problem. That is also an opportunity to use some better quality in-wall cable, of which there are several code-compliant options. Running dedicated lines to my system wasn't an option to retrofit in my inner city apartment, so I went with a Gigawatt PC-3 SE Evo conditioner. That said, I plan to sell the Gigawatt and go with a high end Distribution board made of panzerholz in my next system.

Unfortunately I live in a block of home units. Also can't afford $14000 on power reconditioning. On these posts, one guy has said reconditioning wont get rid of the hum. Do you think it would? 

[Robbiefest]

14 hours ago, parrasaw said:

Some time in the last 12 months I think that I saw Steve Huff (HiFiHuff) discuss a powerboard/conditioner which made a big difference to noisy lines where he lived.

Will see if I can find the video and pas it on to you.

Hopefully Huff, but if it was someone else, I will try to find the reference/video.

 

Found it. Steve Huff, and many others have reviewed it very favourably:

Puritan Audio Labs PSM156.

Made in England.

Not sure about compliance with Australian Standards etc, but worth a look to see if it may be worth exploring further?

 

Thank you. I'd seen his post a while back so thanks for the reminder. I'll do some research on this device. It may actually come under the almost affordable catagory! 

[David A]

7 hours ago, Robbiefest said:

Unfortunately I live in a block of home units. Also can't afford $14000 on power reconditioning. On these posts, one guy has said reconditioning wont get rid of the hum. Do you think it would? 

If you can't run dedicated lines to your audio room, a power conditioner with dc blocking would be what you'd want. I've heard good things about Puritan Audio. Also a pre-owned Gigawatt PC-3 SE Evo+ conditioner would a good option. You could keep an eye out on the SNA classifieds and Aussie Audio Mart, as well as place a wanted ad if you were interested.

 

Edited September 17, 2024 by David A

[The Mad Scientist]

 

29 minutes ago, David A said:

If you can't run dedicated lines to your audio room, a power conditioner with dc blocking would be what you'd want. I've heard good things about Puritan Audio. Also a pre-owned Gigawatt PC-3 SE Evo+ conditioner would a good option. You could keep an eye out on the SNA classifieds and Aussie Audio Mart, as well as place a wanted ad if you were interested.

 

 

DC blocking will prevent mechanical hum from toroidal transformers cased by core saturation. Normally a bank of capacitors is used in combination with a high current rectifier to filter any DC offset component from the mains. I built one a while back for a big hybrid amp I owned which had a pair of massive toroids that used to vibrate like crazy at certain times of the day. 

 

If there's audible hum coming from speakers, it's a ground loop issue and investigation involving plugging in and unplugging components is needed to narrow it down.

 

Mains conditioning is highly unlikely to resolve ground loop hum.

[David A]

46 minutes ago, The Mad Scientist said:

 

 

DC blocking will prevent mechanical hum from toroidal transformers cased by core saturation. Normally a bank of capacitors is used in combination with a high current rectifier to filter any DC offset component from the mains. I built one a while back for a big hybrid amp I owned which had a pair of massive toroids that used to vibrate like crazy at certain times of the day. 

 

If there's audible hum coming from speakers, it's a ground loop issue and investigation involving plugging in and unplugging components is needed to narrow it down.

 

Mains conditioning is highly unlikely to resolve ground loop hum.

 

Interesting. Thanks for your input, and good advice. I'd just add though, from experience, Gigawatt's top conditioners do a great job of lowering the noise floor and protecting upstream equipment from surges/spikes and sags in voltage.

[parrasaw]

8 hours ago, Robbiefest said:

Thank you. I'd seen his post a while back so thanks for the reminder. I'll do some research on this device. It may actually come under the almost affordable catagory! 

If the Puritan Audio product(s) look at all interesting, it may be worth contacting them directly with a couple of questions?

1. After describing your issues to them (as you have on this thread), do they think that their products might/should assist in resolving the issues, and if so so, why? (2 questions in there).

2. If they give a positive result to the first question(s), is Puritan Audio able to supply their product(s) to you with fittings suited to your components power cords etc?

If yes to all of the above, based upon the opinions/reviews of quite a few people in Europe and the US, and also the likely cost when landed in Australia, perhaps Puritan Audio ca help you to resolve your issues?

AND, if that occurs, that may well lead to them getting additional orders in the future from others?

Good luck. 

[Robbiefest]

1 hour ago, parrasaw said:

If the Puritan Audio product(s) look at all interesting, it may be worth contacting them directly with a couple of questions?

1. After describing your issues to them (as you have on this thread), do they think that their products might/should assist in resolving the issues, and if so so, why? (2 questions in there).

2. If they give a positive result to the first question(s), is Puritan Audio able to supply their product(s) to you with fittings suited to your components power cords etc?

If yes to all of the above, based upon the opinions/reviews of quite a few people in Europe and the US, and also the likely cost when landed in Australia, perhaps Puritan Audio ca help you to resolve your issues?

AND, if that occurs, that may well lead to them getting additional orders in the future from others?

Good luck. 

Thanks for the suggestions. Appreciated. 

[Tim Perry]

In a good system, say 100k plus its easy to hear the improvement that good power cables make, plus good interconnects, speaker cables and on and on, linear and power regenerators  also add more emotion, blackness and life to the recording

[Robbiefest]

8 hours ago, Tim Perry said:

In a good system, say 100k plus its easy to hear the improvement that good power cables make, plus good interconnects, speaker cables and on and on, linear and power regenerators  also add more emotion, blackness and life to the recording

I can very easily hear every cable change in my system which is worth around $20 000 at most. 

[joeling]

Based on my experience, power conditioner / regenerator is a tuning device for the sound of one's system.

 

PS Audio P12  - Pure sign wave mode - soften the sound compared to mains. Multiwave - harder but still softer than mains. Good for bright speakers like Focal Utopia. Not good for speakers like ProAc Carbon 12. Reduce Sibilance.

 

Strom tank - Harder than PS Audio for sure. Not as pleasant as the Pure Power (old model more than 20 years old). Did not have a chance to try on the ProAc. Not suited for Focal Utopia

 

Puritan Audio - Probably better than direct from mains. Effect less pronounced than regenrators

 

Best to try it out before committing. I will get a PS Audio and a Puritan to try them out on my upcoming system & choose one and burn the other (figuratively).

 

 

[Robbiefest]

I'm most interested in the Puritan Audio PSM156. However, at $3500 it's a big gamble. 

 

So far my favourite sound is a Dick Smith power board. It seem to just let all the power through without changing anything, especially the sound scape, meaning width breadth and depth. It also doesn't muck around with tone. I recently sold an IFI Power station with extra filter as I preferred the unfiltered sound. 

So I suppose one has to ask, what does one gain when filtering their power? Does it really open up the recording or does it just clean it up? To me, space can actually have noise in it. When it's too silent it can sound tampered with, especially the sense of air. I'm into hearing the room and reverbs etc. I've found filtering diminishes this, plus it can really mess with the bottom end too. I'm ALWAYS the one to go against the popular consensus. 

 

I bought some gear from a guy who had 2 setups, one exceeding $150 000 worth. He commented that he'd never ever achieved that sense of 3D hologram type sound. On my $25 000 i've got it in spades. He was using high end PS Audio power plants on both systems. 

[vivianbl]

2 hours ago, Robbiefest said:

I'm most interested in the Puritan Audio PSM156. However, at $3500 it's a big gamble. 

 

So far my favourite sound is a Dick Smith power board. It seem to just let all the power through without changing anything, especially the sound scape, meaning width breadth and depth. It also doesn't muck around with tone. I recently sold an IFI Power station with extra filter as I preferred the unfiltered sound. 

So I suppose one has to ask, what does one gain when filtering their power? Does it really open up the recording or does it just clean it up? To me, space can actually have noise in it. When it's too silent it can sound tampered with, especially the sense of air. I'm into hearing the room and reverbs etc. I've found filtering diminishes this, plus it can really mess with the bottom end too. I'm ALWAYS the one to go against the popular consensus. 

 

I bought some gear from a guy who had 2 setups, one exceeding $150 000 worth. He commented that he'd never ever achieved that sense of 3D hologram type sound. On my $25 000 i've got it in spades. He was using high end PS Audio power plants on both systems. 

Breath, depth, 3D may not be a function of the power supply- wall mains, filtering, conditioning  or regeneration.
I would have thought the audio equipment used - source, amplification and speakers- together with speaker/ equipment positioning, room set up and acoustics would be the major factor.