CD vs Streamed, by Paul McGowen of (PS Audio)

[georgehifi]

45 minutes ago, Stereophilus said:

Internet streaming sources simply present options for streaming music - massive libraries with little choice of which master or version you get

 

Yes, not little but no choice, as they don't give the cat. no. of the master version they stream to you.

 

At least with buying the physical cd you get the master version you want by looking at the cat. no. on the Dynamic Range Data Base (https://tinyurl.com/2m7h4elt) and it's then up to you to pick and buy the one (even used) for a couple of bucks with the highest dynamic range.

 

Cheers George

Edited May 14, 2023 by georgehifi

[Stereophilus]

1 hour ago, georgehifi said:

 

Yes, not little but no choice, as they don't give the cat. no. of the master version they stream to you.

I disagree.

I just took these screen shots from the Qobuz app.

 

[georgehifi]

10 hours ago, Stereophilus said:

I disagree.

I just took these screen shots from the Qobuz app.

 

Sorry but that's not giving you the issue release streamed to you (Cat,. No.) All it's says is when the first made issue was originally released in 1983, not what issue your getting.

It could be any one of these they are streaming to you.

(just click on the Let's Dance of each one to open up another page to see all the details of that release)

https://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list/1/year/asc?artist=David Bowie&album=Let's Dance

 

Hopefully you get before 1995, but I doubt it, it's easier for them to get the later releases.

 

Cheers George

 

Edited May 14, 2023 by georgehifi

[MattyW]

On 24/01/2023 at 8:25 AM, was_a said:

 

It really isn't 'plain and simple' MattyW! Nothing in digital audio is. Your post gets a thumbs-down from me!

 

The more I compare streaming solutions to CD transports the more I'm convinced that noise — pertaining to storage servers, networks, RFI and power-supplies — makes the sound quality of streaming inferior. 

 

 

Noise does play a part yes, though many of us have found that your home network can be significantly improved from this stand point. I’ve gotten rid of all switching power supplies where possible around my home in favor of linear power supplies.  Cabling is all Acoustic Revive which was more to my preference than Supra, 1x Renolabs Ultimate Audio Switch (and soon addition of a LHY SW-8) and the biggest improvement by far a Muon Pro streaming system (filter) before even getting to the network streamer. I’ve had multiple comparisons with 3rd parties where we’ve agreed the streamed content was significantly ahead of the sonics provided by my CEC TL5 CD transport so really I’d argue it’s more down to what you’ve done to optimize your streaming setup.

 

I guess a Jays Audio transport or what not Might better the CEC though in comparison to the TL5 my streaming setup is far ahead. Remove the network and LPS tweaks and CD is ahead. It all makes a difference at every step of the chain and the improvement where there is one appears to be additive.

 

Sadly I still have to run wireless mesh between between my roon server and my end points so I know there are stills significant gains to be had once I eventually build a new home with CAT8 throughout, and dedicated power circuit for audio.  The LHY SW-8 will go between the Deco X60 mesh and Network Acoustics Muon Pro streaming system and the network streamer. Should deal with a few of the nasties Wi-Fi adds though can never make up for packet loss. Ah well, such is life.

 

So essentially I guess some context is needed. In my system, streaming is clearly ahead of CD playback with the mastering/remaster etc being king...... Though I recognize this may not be true for all.

 

While I've never thought of a plausible explanation satisfies all as to why these tweaks make a difference given that in the networking space all that should matter is whether the data gets from A to B, which is does due to how TCP/IP protocol works, the reality is that through subjective listening at least it makes a very large audible difference.

 

So..... Do I thumbs down your thumbs down, or merely accept that sometimes in responses not everything is considered? Course I'll not have considered everything in this response either so I guess another thumbs down is in order? 

Edited June 7, 2023 by MattyW

[georgehifi]

2 hours ago, MattyW said:

Noise does play a part yes

 

I’ve had multiple comparisons with 3rd parties where we’ve agreed the streamed content was significantly ahead of the sonics provided by my CEC TL5 CD transport so really I’d argue it’s more down to what you’ve done to optimize your streaming setup.

 

Yes it does with the majority using SMPS supplies, many just smps wall warts.

But the major factor is release versions of what's streamed to you could be mega compressed, these are all taken from the same master https://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list/1/year/asc?artist=&album=Goodbye Yellow Brick Road streaming companies usually use the latest versions as they are the easiest for them to get. (some people like compression)

Then there's the jitter factor, that's added up in streaming from multiple paths during the process of getting to you, where at least with your CEC TL5 there just one lot of jitter, and if it sounds worse to you, it's something else that's wrong.

CEC transports have the reputaion and been known to sound very "vinyl like" in sound, I just find them to be HF rolled-off/laid-back sounding, and it shows in their digital output wave form, should be as square as possible with no ringing or rounded corners, that's why I didn't keep my CEC TL2X MkII. 

 

CEC

 

 

Rotel RDD-980

 

 

Cheers George

Edited June 7, 2023 by georgehifi

[bob_m_54]

39 minutes ago, georgehifi said:

CEC transports have the reputaion and been known to sound very "vinyl like" in sound, I just find them to be HF rolled-off/laid-back sounding, and it shows in their digital output wave form, should be as square as possible with no ringing or rounded corners, that's why I didn't keep my TL2X MkII. 

Those rounded corners aren't representative of the audio characteristics of the device though. They are in the digital domain, not the analog domain. They may possibly contribute to timing errors, due to the not so distinct leading edge level, but that's not even really likely.

[georgehifi]

1 hour ago, bob_m_54 said:

They are in the digital domain, not the analog domain.

I never said they were,

"it shows in their digital output wave form"  

This will sound different, to what extent is anyone's guess compared to transports that have correct square digital output wave forms, the very experienced in digital transports "Lampizator" very much agree to this. And CEC's are known to sound very different to most CD transports.

 

Here is the digital output of a CXC Cambridge transport that I didn't live with for more than a day because of it's sound  

 

Cheers George

Edited June 7, 2023 by georgehifi

[MattyW]

Am cable rolling the CEC to see if I can get a bit more naturalness. Not a fan of the Furutech FX pure silver coax cable. Currently burning in Duelund pure silver coax cables. Will see how that sounds after a week or two of non stop CD playback.

 

Overall though CD playback lacks the lifelike quality that I'm getting with streaming which is not something I expect a different cable able to fix. I can get a little more naturalness most likely though that will be about it.

Edited June 7, 2023 by MattyW

[maximus]

@MattyWDon't think the cables are the answer. It's sometimes difficult explaining your situation, streaming wise as opposed to CD playback, that's why I sold my Marantz Ruby SI SACD player. I achieved much better results streaming.

[MattyW]

1 minute ago, maximus said:

@MattyWDon't think the cables are the answer. It's sometimes difficult explaining your situation, streaming wise as opposed to CD playback, that's why I sold my Marantz Ruby SI SACD player. I achieved much better results streaming.

Aye, I've a sneaking suspicion I may end up selling the TL5 also and just not bother with CD's in future. The reality is that I've simply achieved a much better level overall with my streaming setup, which I understand is the opposite experience of many....... Though I'm also not alone in this.

[maximus]

@MattyWDitto..I must admit I've got a Network Switch, USB isolation, added LPS, dedicated power line and AKIKO tuning plugs and sticks, but I'm as happy as a pig in ****.

 

Never, ever was pleased playing CD's, only when the recording was half decent on very rare occasions.

[rantan]

42 minutes ago, maximus said:

I must admit I've got a Network Switch, USB isolation, added LPS, dedicated power line and AKIKO tuning plugs and sticks,

You most likely did not need any of these things with your CD, although I am ok to stand corrected on the last two items. So are we really doing like-for-like?

 

CD quality comes down to two things

1. The quality of your player

2. The quality of the CD itself upon which I defer to @georgehifi

 

This anecdote may not prove anything at all but ...........I once compared a Node 2i to my cd player in exactly the same system,room and cables with the same music  and the result (almost ) put me off streaming forever.

I am aware that things have improved greatly since then and that I was comparing a journeyman streamer against a premium quality CD player, but the point is that my CD player plays the same quality every time without needing outboard power supplies etc, which seem to be almost mandatory for most streamers.

 

Of course there are many CDs that are heavily compressed and don't sound all that flash, but these are probably the same recordings that the streaming companies use anyway and is not the fault of my player.

 

I am now in the process of looking to purchase a streamer for various reasons, NOT to replace my CD, but as an addition to my source choice, expanding my music collection for little-to-no outlay and saving ever decreasing space for storage, but I am acutely aware that if I wish to obtain similar results to my CD then I will need to do those things you mentioned and also spend at least $4K+ on a good streamer.

 

[MattyW]

38 minutes ago, rantan said:

You most likely did not need any of these things with your CD, although I am ok to stand corrected on the last two items. So are we really doing like-for-like?

 

CD quality comes down to two things

1. The quality of your player

2. The quality of the CD itself upon which I defer to @georgehifi

 

This anecdote may not prove anything at all but ...........I once compared a Node 2i to my cd player in exactly the same system,room and cables with the same music  and the result (almost ) put me off streaming forever.

I am aware that things have improved greatly since then and that I was comparing a journeyman streamer against a premium quality CD player, but the point is that my CD player plays the same quality every time without needing outboard power supplies etc, which seem to be almost mandatory for most streamers.

 

Of course there are many CDs that are heavily compressed and don't sound all that flash, but these are probably the same recordings that the streaming companies use anyway and is not the fault of my player.

 

I am now in the process of looking to purchase a streamer for various reasons, NOT to replace my CD, but as an addition to my source choice, expanding my music collection for little-to-no outlay and saving ever decreasing space for storage, but I am acutely aware that if I wish to obtain similar results to my CD then I will need to do those things you mentioned and also spend at least $4K+ on a good streamer.

 

 

To be fair, it's impossible to compare like for like. They're both two different technologies with differing requirements for optimal results..... A CD transport has no need of an ethernet port..... A network has no need of an optical drive.....

 

Who's to say which tweaks are fair for comparing of either other than tweaks are indeed necessary for optimal results. An upgraded CD weight for the transport maybe, isolation feet etc. Just saying, no matter what we do the comparison is apples and oranges. 

 

That said if comparing performance for the price..... CD would come up trumps there. Spend more however and streaming goes further. It's a similar situation comparing vinyl with CD. They're different technologies and need to be accepted as such and will fit different peoples needs to greater or lesser degrees.

Edited June 7, 2023 by MattyW

[muon*]

If the streaming is top of the line type, then only a top transport would be close to a fair comparison.

Edited June 7, 2023 by muon*

[maximus]

2 hours ago, rantan said:

@rantanYou most likely did not need any of these things with your CD, although I am ok to stand corrected on the last two items. So are we really doing like-for-like?

Fair comment, but let me explain my situation;

Just last week a good friend bought over his expensive European streamer not far off 20k, just to see where my Lumin T2 + LPS(SBooster) stood as a comparison.

I decided to plug it into my dedicated power circuit that cost me $45 when I was doing reno's a few years ago. I never used the circuit as I thought it safer to connect the T2 to my  Thoroughbred Power board as I didn't want to damage any equipment in case of electrical spikes we were having at the time. 

My friends streamer dug deeper into the fabric of the music, bass was tight and explosive, it sounded more complete, although the Lumin sounded slightly fuller and sweeter with the human voice, until the next day I plugged in the T2 into the dedicated ciruit, and OMG, yes a WOW! moment .......it sounded as good as my friends, massive slam and punch, full bodied and tight, decay and reverb to die for, extremely detailed.

Plugging the T2 into the Thoroughbred  power board was a huge NO NO, it suffocated the dynamics, I was on the verge of spending alot more on the next streamer upgrade, but now that's over.

So basically, the LPS or dedicated circuit on Lumin is imperative for a massive upgrade. I could never achieve anything like this on any cd player I've owned, including some touching almost 10k.

Tel sold his T2 for 3k approx, add LPS and conversion $550, Qubuz $20 a month and Roon $170 a year subscription. 

@rantanwhen you experience this sound quality at the price, you'll never play another cd again, its an affordable way to experience wonderful sound.

 

Frank. 

 

[MattyW]

Just too many tweaks which can make a difference with streaming and many are directly in the networking side of things..... Other tweaks are between streamer and DAC. I mean, what do you classify as streaming even though needed to improve streaming? It's why no comparison can ever be considered fair.

[maximus]

This and many blogs are littered with references to poor quality music streaming from the usual suspects, I beg to differ, some of the recordings are in line with my SACD's, I trust my ears.

[MattyW]

5 minutes ago, maximus said:

This and many blogs are littered with references to poor quality music streaming from the usual suspects, I beg to differ, some of the recordings are in line with my SACD's, I trust my ears.

Well said.

[rantan]

@maximus

 

I am 100% not trying to be argumentative but a dedicated line for audio would most likely also improve the SQ of a good cd player and I don't use Thor power boards at all.

 

What I am trying to establish is what the approximate price point would be for a streaming system such as your own, if one had to purchase new? This also segues into my point that one must spend a lot of cash for streaming to be considered equal ( or superior ) to a high quality cd player. I suspect it would be north of $7K inclusive of "tweaks" given that the T2 is $6K on its own?

 

Anything less than this will be SQ compromised and entry to mid level streaming is not going to be an out-of-body experience.

 

 

[maximus]

The new T3 is just under 7k RRP. You could probably get it for 6k if push came to shove.

 

The reason I used Tel's T2 for example and even mine for that matter is because they are in tip top condition, well looked after, I'd be confident buying off him, otherwise it's becoming fairly expensive to buy new but so is everything else these days.

I'm trying to find a cost effective answer for remarkable sound quality achieved with the LPS, this product delivers. I added it on reputation, no gimmicks here.

 

The other option would be the Ever Solo and Geiseler reinigen > dac Snoop8 described on another post, that too seems interesting.

Just remember @BugPowderDustreplaced his T2 (which he rated) with an MSB DAC. 

Fear not @rantan, 5-6k will give you that out of body experience

 

[rantan]

1 minute ago, maximus said:

Fear not @rantan, 5-6k will give you that out of body experience

 

Being completely honest, I was looking to achieve this for less than 2K. plus the cost of power supply. Am I just wasting my time?

 

Please feel free to be bluntly honest on this

[maximus]

Brand new, yes, I haven't come across fine quality at this price, used, your not far off. Others may differ.  

[rantan]

7 minutes ago, maximus said:

Brand new, yes, I haven't come across fine quality at this price, used, your not far off. Others may differ.  

 

This is exactly what I thought initially and it seem now that the onlybenefit to me of streaming is to discover new music for my black and silver discs.

 

Disappointing,  but not even remotely surprising so I think I will just buy a node or a Cambridge MXN and use them as a discovery tool. I can get an MXN for $800 and a power supply for about $700 so for $1.5 k it may be at least listenable and I will adjust my expectations accordingly. I appreciate your help and knowledge on this topic.

It is  my only area in audio of being a novice.

 

Cheers

[MattyW]

Quality streaming for me costs more than 2k….. Far more

[georgehifi]

14 minutes ago, rantan said:

This is exactly what I thought initially and it seem now that the onlybenefit to me of streaming is to discover new music for my black and silver discs.

 

Exactly what I do, have streaming on all day, as an indicator to pick music I'd like to buy on CD.

Then look up it's cat no. by clicking on the album name "least compressed release" on DRDB ( https://dr.loudness-war.info/ ) and search for it used on ebay for a couple of bucks.

Then get it in the mail sit in the stereo room in the evening with a nice red and really get to love the whole album played on the CD just bought.

 

Cheers George

Edited June 7, 2023 by georgehifi