Dirac Live ART (Active Room Treatment) Discussion Thread

[Wavetrain]

27 minutes ago, BugPowderDust said:

I agree but I imagine many of the products in market now, or close to release, didn’t plan on this being available when designing their products.

 

It’s always bee a constant frustration of mine, losing the latest functionality when your “box” doesn’t support it because of inherent resource limitations.

The Storm Audio guys should be commended for their apparent future proofing of their platform and their active work with Dirac to test this new functionality in the wild.

StormAudio like other PC based processors is fully upgradeable. In fact if you bought an ISP Mk1 years ago, you could upgrade it to the same spec as the Mk3 now. It won’t look the same, but performs the same. StormAudio see their products as an investment. They are also one of the only brands processing beyond 16ch and offer 24 & 32ch units on the ISP platform - fully upgradable of course.

 

They have not reached the limit on their processing power yet. With the current processors, there is still room for more to come…

[davewantsmoore]

42 minutes ago, BugPowderDust said:

I agree but I imagine many of the products in market now, or close to release, didn’t plan on this being available when designing their products.

Yes, sure.   I didn't mean it would be retrofitted to (m)any current processors, aside from car prices boxes (as opposed to microwave-oven priced boxes).

 

42 minutes ago, BugPowderDust said:

It’s always bee a constant frustration of mine, losing the latest functionality when your “box” doesn’t support it because of inherent resource limitations.

I'm not convinced a fair amount of processors out there today don't have enough compute to run this (eg. a not low-end AD-SHARC) , but in the consumer market (500 to 2000 $ boxes), unless you've amortised the costs of the feature in the product, then it's likely too expensive to offer as an update.... and you just put it in the next gen, and keep your customers upgrading.

[HdB]

I'm wondering if the product exhibits 16, 24 or 32 of processing channels, does this mean the device will actually output 16, 24 or 32 individual channels and besides the Dirac room compensation, does the included program offer electronic crossover ability?

[Wavetrain]

25 minutes ago, HdB said:

I'm wondering if the product exhibits 16, 24 or 32 of processing channels, does this mean the device will actually output 16, 24 or 32 individual channels and besides the Dirac room compensation, does the included program offer electronic crossover ability?

Yes. 16, 24 or 32ch output in XLR or AES/AOIP digital. I am not aware of any other product that can output more than 16ch digital. It will discreetly decode up to 24ch of surround sound, but can output that to 32ch. For instance, that could be multi-way speakers with Xover done in the Storm or could be say 8 subs, with bass steering or speakers that share channel processing, etc. 

BTW - the bass configurations on the StormAudio are not available on any other processor. Storm has the ability to pre-group subs into multiple configurations. So, we have the ability to group all subs into a single channel for LFE, then group those same subs into sub groups for bass steering. The options are endless. For Wavetrain we use the subs in a way that would be impossible with any other brand. Since we are using 8 subs in our high end systems, we always need a min of 24ch of processing.

ART is going to be very interesting to play with in our systems, as the Elementi Tempest is flat to 30Hz with 129dB output at 1m. So it along with our sub configurations is going to be very interesting. We are finishing off a system like this at the moment.

[Wavetrain]

 This is a tiny room (5.2 x 4.5m), in a 9.4.4 configuration, so another 2 subs in the rear. For LFE all 4 subs run together. The LCR’s are full range & for bass steering the subs are broken into 3 groups, with each group Dirac tuned and bass steering being directed to the relevant sub/group.

 

Some people might describe this as overkill - but once you’ve heard it….

 

This is an Elementi Air system, so ribbon tweeters with incredible surround envelopment. Running off a StormAudio 24ch ISP Mk3 with AES67 running digitally to the digital active amplifiers which are located within a few metres of each speaker - so basically no D/A conversions until the last possible moment & minimal electrical interference = a very clean signal.

 

To top it all off, there is a Christie RGB laser projector (97% REC2020, 1100:1 ANSI contrast & 7000:1 on/off) running off a Lumagen 5000 series video processor with a 2 way Screen Research custom masking solution.

 

And Wavetrain Cinemas engineering, design & calibration. I can’t share images of the design, but it is based on ‘Dune’. You can see the eclipse taking form on the ceiling.

[HdB]

I guess this would be listed under "pro-audio" - a miniature  "iMax 3D" system? 

[Wavetrain]

4 hours ago, HdB said:

I guess this would be listed under "pro-audio" - a miniature  "iMax 3D" system? 

Lol. This is obviously at the higher end of the scale, but it’s fundamentally every Wavetrain Cinema we do with regard to Elementi Air, AOIP, StormAudio, Lumagen, etc. Christie is a high end product of course.

 

We are known for these types of projects with high levels of engineering & design. It’s why we win so many awards.

 

We wouldn’t do bass steering unless we could achieve a frequency response of +/-3dB across all seats. ART may start to change this… time will tell.

[cwt]

On 22/01/2023 at 10:46 PM, Wavetrain said:

 16, 24 or 32ch output in XLR or AES/AOIP digital. I am not aware of any other product that can output more than 16ch digital.

David that sentence made me curious as it rattled something loose . Do you have any guidance as to what the brand new AES digital ISP EVO 20'32 channel pre pro;s may list at ?

Only found 1 oseas site saying "price on request"

Would be interesting knowing theres no dacs or analogue stages to uptick the rrp 

[Wavetrain]

1 hour ago, cwt said:

David that sentence made me curious as it rattled something loose . Do you have any guidance as to what the brand new AES digital ISP EVO 20'32 channel pre pro;s may list at ?

Only found 1 oseas site saying "price on request"

Would be interesting knowing theres no dacs or analogue stages to uptick the rrp 

There is a new price list about to be released. Should be around $5k less than an equivalent ISP Mk3, with the removal of the analog section. A core is a completely different processor setup, so a Mk3 is the better comparison. I’ll post it once it’s confirmed.

 

A large percentage of Storms sold have AES/AOIP installed. A lot of high end brands like Elementi & Meridian are implementing it.

[BugPowderDust]

A helpful guide to what ART is and how it works: https://www.stereonet.com/au/features/inside-track-dirac-live-active-room-treatment 

 

I especially liked the tips in the tail end on mic positioning for measurements.

[cwt]

Quote

The more speakers, the better and the more frequency range available to Dirac Live ART, the better the result

Some incentive there to get a 24 or 32 channel pre pro ; depending on what can be fit in ones room of course . With so many object encoded movie soundtracks limited to 7.1.4 its nice that extra line out channels now have a real reason d"etre 

If ART stays around $299us it is a more than reasonable cost imo 

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, cwt said:

Some incentive there to get a 24 or 32 channel pre pro ; depending on what can be fit in ones room of course .

I have the opposite problem. DLART should help in a shared family room but a 5.2.4 sub sat config may not have enough bass sources. I suspect I will need more subs!   For the matter, I am now starting to wonder whether DLBC will help me either with 2 subs???

[cwt]

40 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

I have the opposite problem. DLART should help in a shared family room but a 5.2.4 sub sat config may not have enough bass sources. I suspect I will need more subs!   For the matter, I am now starting to wonder whether DLBC will help me either with 2 subs???

More subs indeed snoop can only help . I take heart in the '' more frequency range available " to mean expanded speaker range ie higher than 20khz like those speakers marketed for sacd decades ago to reproduce the infrasonics above .. Like certain diaprahm and ribbon drivers  [ my timberwolves are flat a bit above 20]

Or i could be reading to much into how MIMO works ? As I read it its not a sub only centric so more speakers is the key 

 

Quote

Like Dimensions, it uses all of the speakers in the sound system to achieve what passive room treatments struggle to achieve.

 

[BugPowderDust]

2 hours ago, Snoopy8 said:

I am now starting to wonder whether DLBC will help me either with 2 subs???

It absolutely will. My REW traces show a nasty null at 60 and 120 Hz without DLBC. With it, the 120 Hz null is gone and the 60Hz dip is far less severe. It’s seriously worth it, even aside from ART

[Guest]

I would have to agree. I have just two 18" subs, and the difference between no processing, then Dirac Live, then Bass Control, was a significant improvement each time. Obviously, every room is vastly different, but I would be very surprised if there was a system that would not benefit from DL or DLBC.

[Guest]

For those who missed the informative Storm Audio Dirac ART webinar, replay here.

https://www.stormaudio.com/webinar-with-dirac-the-road-to-active-room-treatment/

 

I found it much easier when someone explained it, but you can read the same details about ART here

https://www.dirac.com/introducing-dirac-live-active-room-treatment/

 

Some of my takeaways.  ART will work with all speakers (including subs), big and small. Each speaker can have a number of supporting speakers (how many depends on DSP power, so I would expect lower end AVRs to have fewer supporting speakers). Even satellite speakers with 60Hz response can help, for example with modal ringing at 80 Hz.

 

ART does not need subs to work (i.e. can be used in stereo setups!) but if subs are involved, Bass Control must also be licensed.  It was a bit fuzzy during seminar, but I believe this is for licence purposes because ART "supersedes" BC capability.  ART currently limited to max 250 Hz (was not explained why in seminar).

 

ART particularly useful in shared environments where big bass traps are a "no no"!  If you have a dedicated room with well sorted bass traps (no modal ringing) and multiple subs, then you may not need ART; use BC to get even bass response across seating positions.

[BugPowderDust]

Great watch that video and the questions helped fill in some blanks. I’m really excited to be able to test pilot this at home in the coming weeks. It will be very interesting to see how far it goes beyond what I can do today.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, BugPowderDust said:

Great watch that video and the questions helped fill in some blanks. I’m really excited to be able to test pilot this at home in the coming weeks. It will be very interesting to see how far it goes beyond what I can do today.

It should solve the problem of one of your subs distorting with DLBC. I asked the question during the seminar about using different sized subs in DLBC, but got a vague answer that DLBC should measure the difference and compensate (but it doesn't!).

 

Given you have an untreated room, I suspect you will see a bigger leap with DLART than DLBC.

 

Looking forward to your feedback on Beta DLART.

[Grizaudio]

Dirac ART is certainly interesting software.

 

I'm in two minds about this technology. From what I have seen, some beta testers have had access to full range correction using Dirac ART. Yet the technology seems optimised for 125hz and below at this time.    

If we consider full range correction for a moment, is Dirac ART actually the best/right tool for the job?

 

If our primary goal is to reduce reflections, and address time domain issues, would it not make more sense to build a system using controlled directivity speakers, treat the room, and correct for time & amplitude using FIR or a combination of IIR/FIR filters?

 

If full range correction is to be made available, I would hazard to guess that many hifi listeners would prefer some level of primary reflection, as this is typically perceived as a wider image & soundstage. Taking this away for many, would be a stark difference indeed.   

 

Additionally, if room reflections are being minimised by the software using active/opposing frequency manipulation across the speaker array, how does this impact individual speaker frequency response and evenness through the room. Does this open up the ability to localise correction under particular proximity/levels and seated positions?

 

For me, I would be more inclined to treat my room, select the right speakers to minimise room interaction, and use IIR or FIR for room correction.

 

 

 

 

[Wavetrain]

3 hours ago, Grizaudio said:

Dirac ART is certainly interesting software.

 

I'm in two minds about this technology. From what I have seen, some beta testers have had access to full range correction using Dirac ART. Yet the technology seems optimised for 125hz and below at this time.    

If we consider full range correction for a moment, is Dirac ART actually the best/right tool for the job?

 

If our primary goal is to reduce reflections, and address time domain issues, would it not make more sense to build a system using controlled directivity speakers, treat the room, and correct for time & amplitude using FIR or a combination of IIR/FIR filters?

 

If full range correction is to be made available, I would hazard to guess that many hifi listeners would prefer some level of primary reflection, as this is typically perceived as a wider image & soundstage. Taking this away for many, would be a stark difference indeed.   

 

Additionally, if room reflections are being minimised by the software using active/opposing frequency manipulation across the speaker array, how does this impact individual speaker frequency response and evenness through the room. Does this open up the ability to localise correction under particular proximity/levels and seated positions?

 

For me, I would be more inclined to treat my room, select the right speakers to minimise room interaction, and use IIR or FIR for room correction.

 

 

 

 

You need to spend more time researching what Dirac & ART specifically is doing. It’s clear you don’t understand Dirac & how their technologies interact for a complete solution or what has been written by others. I doubt anyone would say, including myself that you shouldn’t first design your cinema to be acoustically correct & Dirac is full range. ART is about creating a flat bass response, so is not full range. Since most rooms can’t acoustically control bass very well they are promoting this as likely a huge step forward for many systems, as they are not just using subs, but speakers to control bass. That is huge, as it’s never been done before in a commercial product & well beyond any other proposed technology. Depending on your room, the crossover frequency between room & speaker will be below 250Hz. There is no reason to go above this frequency for ART.

 

Will be interesting to see the results people are getting.

Edited April 16, 2023 by Wavetrain

[JoshH]

As a Storm 16 ISP owner I am really excited by this new update and eagerly looking forward to trying it. The Storm has been, without doubt, the very best upgrade I have ever done to my cinema in over twenty years. Its incredibly neutral and utterly enveloping in its surround presentation.  The recent full calibration I had done by Wavetrain and Scott Sauer just floored me on first listen and continues to blow me Away every time I watch a movie.
 

If ART does half of what it is supposed to do, its going to raise the bar far higher than I thought possible in home cinema.

 

Having now also watched the webinar I am even more excited to get this into my Storm asap. My room is dedicated and heavily treated with thunderous base already, so its going to be really interesting to see ART in action.

[Grizaudio]

6 hours ago, Wavetrain said:

You need to spend more time researching what Dirac & ART specifically is doing. It’s clear you don’t understand Dirac & how their technologies interact for a complete solution or what has been written by others.

6 hours ago, Wavetrain said:

 ART is about creating a flat bass response, so is not full range.

 

I will admit I undoubtedly need to do some more research to understand the full complement of Dirac software and how each compliments one another. 

Its only a topic of casual interest, but I'm always keen to learn.  

 

My point about full range came from a beta tester that said their ART beta implementation allowed for full range correction, and the result wasn't favourable. 

Perhaps he was talking about Dirac Live in conjunction with Art. Anyway I will do some wider reading & watching as you recommend.

 

6 hours ago, Wavetrain said:

Since most rooms can’t acoustically control bass very well they are promoting this as likely a huge step forward for many systems, as they are not just using subs, but speakers to control bass. 

 

That's fair, and I understand the goal of Dirac ART is to reduce resonances and decay times in bass. 

However, in one youtube video I watched, a beta user reported being able to localise correction, and said he thought his system sounded better without the correction. 

 

 

Edited April 17, 2023 by Grizaudio

[Wavetrain]

On 17/4/2023 at 9:59 AM, Grizaudio said:

 

I will admit I undoubtedly need to do some more research to understand the full complement of Dirac software and how each compliments one another. 

Its only a topic of casual interest, but I'm always keen to learn.  

 

My point about full range came from a beta tester that said their ART beta implementation allowed for full range correction, and the result wasn't favourable. 

Perhaps he was talking about Dirac Live in conjunction with Art. Anyway I will do some wider reading & watching as you recommend.

 

 

That's fair, and I understand the goal of Dirac ART is to reduce resonances and decay times in bass. 

However, in one youtube video I watched, a beta user reported being able to localise correction, and said he thought his system sounded better without the correction. 

 

 

My experience is that you easy screw up any system by not understanding the process & what is happening in the room. StormAudio allows you to do a lot of pre-setup work. I would tend to think that if someone is localising anything in the bass region, then it’s likely going to be because of distortion (the speaker/sub is being asked to do something it doesn’t like). This can usually be controlled in how you setup the system prior to Dirac & may require experimenting.

 

We would normally spend 2-3 days on bass; experimenting to find the best outcome. Some configurations work amazing in some rooms, others need interventions. All room tuning software has their little quirks, but IMO Dirac is the best of them. They seem to have the best understanding of audio & we get better results. That said, Storm allows us the flexibility that isn’t available on other Dirac implementations to control what Dirac sees.

 

The purpose of Beta testing is to assess how it performs outside of a controlled environment & make improvements as necessary.

Edited April 18, 2023 by Wavetrain

[dlaloum]

On 17/04/2023 at 3:39 AM, Wavetrain said:

You need to spend more time researching what Dirac & ART specifically is doing. It’s clear you don’t understand Dirac & how their technologies interact for a complete solution or what has been written by others. I doubt anyone would say, including myself that you shouldn’t first design your cinema to be acoustically correct & Dirac is full range. ART is about creating a flat bass response, so is not full range. Since most rooms can’t acoustically control bass very well they are promoting this as likely a huge step forward for many systems, as they are not just using subs, but speakers to control bass. That is huge, as it’s never been done before in a commercial product & well beyond any other proposed technology. Depending on your room, the crossover frequency between room & speaker will be below 250Hz. There is no reason to go above this frequency for ART.

 

Will be interesting to see the results people are getting.

Actually Dirac have stated that in controlled environments (such as cars) they have used ART up to 4kHz - so it is definitely NOT limited to the bass...

 

But it gets exponentially more complicated as you go up the frequency range - especially in a home environment where speaker locations and capabilities vary widely!

 

What they initially stated, was that the first release would be limited to 150Hz (so bass only) - but that they were hoping to up that to 500Hz in the near future - which brings us into the midrange!

[Wavetrain]

1 hour ago, dlaloum said:

Actually Dirac have stated that in controlled environments (such as cars) they have used ART up to 4kHz - so it is definitely NOT limited to the bass...

 

But it gets exponentially more complicated as you go up the frequency range - especially in a home environment where speaker locations and capabilities vary widely!

 

What they initially stated, was that the first release would be limited to 150Hz (so bass only) - but that they were hoping to up that to 500Hz in the near future - which brings us into the midrange!

There’s no intention to go beyond 250Hz, as at that point it’s no longer the room, but the speaker that you are tuning, which is covered by standard filters. Acoustically there is no commonsense reason why they would even attempt to do so.

It would make more sense in a car environment as it is infinitely smaller & so that crossover freq would be much higher.