Hi-Fi Whipped Posted January 12, 2023 Posted January 12, 2023 14 hours ago, betty boop said: @Mick08 re the arcam av41... you might want to check out the following outpouring of grief from someone who lived with an arcam av41, also has some comment on the marantz av10 also mentioned in this thread. this is from poster cable on AVS in the marantz av10 owners thread. the arcam av41 only came our late last year. for something so late to the game of 4k uhd and 3D audio its a bit shocking to read that a brand like arcam would bring something so buggy to market ! its not small money and complete disrespect to owners and those paying hard earned to only have to be beta testers...something getting all too common with some brands these day ! [QUOTE="ccable, post: 62225973, member: 8479460"] I will give you my 2 cents on Arcam AV41 and the Marantz AV10. I came from a Denon X4500. I always wanted Arcam in previous years, but could only accord it now. I tried the Denon X3800H. I failed to do my research before buying, given my long history with Denon AVRs, I didn’t feel the need to question that choice. I historically used all my Denon AVRs are pre-pro as I use Emotiva for amplification. I did not know Denon and Marantz had shifted to new TI DACs within their mid and lower lineup. You don’t get Sabre DACs until you go to the higher end models. After 30-60 minutes of listening to the new Denon 3800H my brain was very puzzled with how it sounded. It felt artificial. The sound stage was “strange“. I could not pinpoint what I was struggling with until I found Andrew Robinson’s X3800H YouTube review and he NAILED IT. Bottom lined, the TI DACs Denon and Marantz are using in the new stuff are not that great. Better vocals and punchy bass, but the sound stage is crap. I never thought I would see a day where I chose to explore options outside of Denon. This leads me to the Arcam AV41. If you are going to go big, then GO BIG. Or so I thought. I decided to go with Arcam AV41 due to its Sabre DAC and Arcam’s reputation for sound quallty. I did consider the Arcam AVR21 (AKA: AV41 with built in Class G amp). Instead I decided to go AV41 with Arcam PA720 and PA410s. Glass G for LCR, PA410s for surround and ceiling. I have a simple Atmos 7.2.4 setup. Arcam does not disappoint with Sound Quality. Its musical quality was spectacular. Surround separation was very noticeable and it really put my ceiling Atmos to work. I watched the Apple TV Foundations series and found myself looking up due to some wild sound effects. It was cool. What was very impressive was how well the Arcam can sound at lower volume levels. I usually had to push my Denon to get exciting sound. Han Zimmer, Coldplay Arabesque, Jazz, and other dynamic music really sounded great at low, mid or high volumes. But then, after 2-3 days of my new, shiny, $10,000 Arcam setup….it all went downhill. 1. HDMI switching problems. Apple TV, NVIDIA Shield, XBOX, etc. The AV41 would continuously change devices every 2-3 seconds. Something about its CEC control was broken. The only solution was to disable CEC control on the AV41. goodbye EARC, Volume control and device switching ability. 2. Video flickering. My child would use the XBOX and after 20-40 minutes, the video on our LG OLED would flicker for a few seconds and eventually shutoff the entire system. Never had that problem with the Denon units. 3. DIRAC and subwoofers. I was warned Arcam was not friendly. You must be very technical and knowledgeable. I have two subwoofers. Hence, you cannot use the two AV41 subwoofer outputs while using DIRAC. You must use channel 13/14 or 15/16. You must have 2 or 4 subwoofers. Not 3. After attempting to use Dirac and paying the $500 Dirac Bass Control upgrade fee, I noticed the subwoofers sounded out of phase and NOT RIGHT. I called my dealer and he provided the dealer support number. I called Arcam dealer support and the response from Arcam was shocking. a. The HDMI switching is know issue. No ETA for fix. b. The Dirac Bass control is a known issue. You cannot use channel 13/14. Must use 15/16. I tried their suggestion. Same problem. I emailed Dirac and recieved a refund for the Bass Control. Why pay for it if Acram AV41 cannot use it properly. No ETA on fix. c. Applying Dirac filters will occasionally cause the AV41 to lockup. You will be forced to power off and restart. Arcam’s response…Known issue. And other buggy issues I suffered. It became hell using the AV41 and I found myself running into the theatre room each day to fix issues my child was suffering because the Arcam would break down. I thought I has a faulty unit, but discovered these are known and wide issues that Arcam acknowledges. As for the Arcam amps. I was really excited to hear the Class G on my Revel Be mains and Revel center. My whole system is Revel speakers. The Emotiva handled these speakers for 12 months without a problem. Sometimes I push volumes to 85-90+ db. The Arcam PA720 would go into protect mode after 30-45 minutes of any push beyond 85db. Lesson learned….if you listen to music loud, the PA720 is not for you. And, the PA720 gets VERY, VERY, VERY HOT!!!! Needless to say, the Arcam AV41 and PA720 went back to the store within 2 weeks. And before others ask “Did you apply software updates? Of course I did, and I did factory resets after the updates were applied. Which now forced me to find a new path. After hearing the Arcam AV41 and how good it sounded, I wanted to maintain that level of quality. The only product we could find with close specification was the Marantz AV10. I took delivery and installed it 5 days ago. It sounds great. I little Neutral. But anyone who has used Denon and Marantz with Audyssey over the years knows they always sound neutral until you adjust the Audyssey curve, disable the Dynamic EQ and other DSP stuff. I know Dirac sound better, compared to Audyssey and I know I will wait until March for that option. But overall, I love the AV10. I would say the Arcam AV41 does have a “little“ more detail at low volume, but for all the bugs it has, the Marantz is a solid replacement, and the AV10 is software stable. I watched Top Gun Maverick Blu-Ray on both the Arcam and Marantz and both handle surround sound beautifully! So, it’s really a trade off. Does the Arcam sound better compared to Marantz….A little. But the Marantz is stable and full featured and easy to use, and you will have Dirac in 2-3 months. So maybe the Marantz can match Arcam quality once it receives Dirac in March…… My vote is for Marantz. I had an Arcam dream, but the AV41 turned that dream into a nightmare. Also, the Class G Arcam PA720 (AKA: JBL Sythesis 7120) did sound better compared to the Emotiva XPA-5 Gen 2 I have. Not mind blowing better, but better, more clear. More details, etc. Too bad it could not run for more than 30 minutes without becoming a heater and shutting down. [/QUOTE] Hey Al how long ago was this post of grief?
Guest Posted January 12, 2023 Posted January 12, 2023 11 minutes ago, Hi-Fi Whipped said: Hey Al how long ago was this post of grief? Found it, it was only last week: https://www.avsforum.com/threads/official-2022-marantz-av-10-flagship-dirac-processor-owners-thread-read-the-1st-page.3261194/post-62225973 But it doesn't mention how long ago the probs were. The AVR40 actually came out late 2019, and the 41 to the best of my knowledge is just an HDMI board update to the same unit (and obviously newer firmware). https://www.stereonet.com/au/news/arcam-unveils-new-models-in-hda-range The AVR41 was first seen mid-last year: https://www.stereonet.com/au/news/arcams-new-movie-stars-avr11-avr21-avr31-and-av41 So it's still possible that the firmware release from the back half of last year could have resolved some (if not all) of those issues. Or this was actually just a faulty unit, which would be replaced anyway (at least in Australia where the distributor supports customers exceptionally well). 1
Hi-Fi Whipped Posted January 12, 2023 Posted January 12, 2023 Given Arcams tech now covers Arcam, Lexicon and JBL and they have more financial backing than ever before there’s little excuse for major flaws, but sure minor bugs are in every tech device. good to hear @BugPowderDust hasn’t experienced any issues though, maybe they are in the rear view.
BugPowderDust Posted January 12, 2023 Posted January 12, 2023 I think any new AVR technology will have teething issues. Pretty sure I've seen similar issues at NAD and Anthem too with their latest generations. Being on the bleeding edge is a dangerous pursuit 1
Guest Posted January 12, 2023 Posted January 12, 2023 1 hour ago, BugPowderDust said: I think any new AVR technology will have teething issues. Pretty sure I've seen similar issues at NAD and Anthem too with their latest generations. Being on the bleeding edge is a dangerous pursuit Agree, especially when standards are evolving in hardware, video and audio. Add in complex DSP and it becomes a difficult challenge for even the best of engineering teams. The other issue is people want to get the latest and greatest, but some unrealistically expect near perfection at the same time.
BugPowderDust Posted January 12, 2023 Posted January 12, 2023 2 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said: The other issue is people want to get the latest and greatest, but some unrealistically expect near perfection at the same time. I am practically salivating at the prospect of Dirac Live ART in my system. 1
Guest Posted January 12, 2023 Posted January 12, 2023 I won't defend a product being released to the public and being sold at full retail when it perhaps just isn't ready, but in the brands' defence - this platform was released in the midst of a global pandemic. I was in communication with two of the engineers working on the faults at the time, and both were locked down in their homes in their respective countries on opposite sides of the globe. One of them didn't even have a product on hand - and it took 2.5 months to even receive one due to further warehouse/freight delays related to COVID. Both expressed their dismay at simply not being about to get around a table, hands-on, and resolve the issues in a couple of days rather than the many months it ended up taking. They were as frustrated as we end-users were. This is the real world we live in - challenges included. Anyway, I guess most of this is really not relevant now to the OP and the question at hand. 2
paulie83 Posted January 24, 2023 Posted January 24, 2023 Looks like there is a sale on the Lyngdorf MP-40. Get 20% off if you trade in something. Not sure how strict they are on the trade in.
Mick08 Posted January 25, 2023 Author Posted January 25, 2023 23 hours ago, paulie83 said: Looks like there is a sale on the Lyngdorf MP-40. Get 20% off if you trade in something. Not sure how strict they are on the trade in. Thanks, I will check it out
cwt Posted January 26, 2023 Posted January 26, 2023 (edited) 21 hours ago, Mick08 said: Thanks, I will check it out Makes sense they have discounted when you look at the specs compared to an AV10 .. Roomperfect vs dirac + dblm [development hasnt stalled] . A distinct lack of hdmi inputs [3 vs 8 is it? the mp60 is the hdmi model with 2 outputs like most .. ] and version 2.0 vs 2.1 [ mp 40 has been promising the new board since 2021 iirc]. And its a 12 channel model vs all the greater channel count models mentioned here ; a quick squiz too says 12k vs 12.8k for the 2 brands . I think it was inevitable the Arcam oem software would get sorted out ;there was too many ce's relying on it and many early adopters at avs got the spd95 on the reputation that JBL SYNTHESIS was the make [ which by coincidence also had a variant of the trinnov natch] Edited January 26, 2023 by cwt
Mick08 Posted January 27, 2023 Author Posted January 27, 2023 On 26/01/2023 at 3:47 PM, cwt said: Makes sense they have discounted when you look at the specs compared to an AV10 .. Roomperfect vs dirac + dblm [development hasnt stalled] . A distinct lack of hdmi inputs [3 vs 8 is it? the mp60 is the hdmi model with 2 outputs like most .. ] and version 2.0 vs 2.1 [ mp 40 has been promising the new board since 2021 iirc]. And its a 12 channel model vs all the greater channel count models mentioned here ; a quick squiz too says 12k vs 12.8k for the 2 brands . I think it was inevitable the Arcam oem software would get sorted out ;there was too many ce's relying on it and many early adopters at avs got the spd95 on the reputation that JBL SYNTHESIS was the make [ which by coincidence also had a variant of the trinnov natch] Really good points Colin and pretty much rules out the Lyngdorf for me, heavily leaning towards StormAudio now, just means saving for a bit longer. 1
BugPowderDust Posted January 30, 2023 Posted January 30, 2023 I've just installed a Storm Audio ISP Core 16 into my system overnight and I am just amazed at how well thought out the configuration interface is, how flexible it is and how easy it was to make it do pretty much anything I could think of. Usually configuring an AV Pre involves a lot of compromise or workarounds to get everything the way you like it. Not here. Also great was the fact that you can read the manual, follow the bouncing ball and get everything happening very quickly. I took a read the day before my unit arrived, made some notes and then when it arrived I plugged it into my network on my desk and preconfigured the unit in a web browser with a minimum of fuss. The ability to have discrete triggers per source input, delays per trigger that kind of forethought is wonderful. The only niggle I found was a restriction on the amount of inputs (6) I can statically define in my Logitech IR remote without relying on input cycling. Given the amount of inputs that can be used with the unit, even making this 10 would be preferable. I guess if I had a Control4 setup (or similar) this would be less of a hassle. I'm looking forward to getting some silence in the house so I can start the Dirac Live process on this unit and based on my past experiences with Dirac Live Bass Control, I am expecting very good things. 4
cwt Posted January 31, 2023 Posted January 31, 2023 4 hours ago, BugPowderDust said: I'm looking forward to getting some silence in the house so I can start the Dirac Live process on this unit and based on my past experiences with Dirac Live Bass Control, I am expecting very good things. Congrats Bugpowderdust ; ime guessing you got the add on package with DLBC to match your av41's dsp also including other goodies like the XT ambience expander ? Curious what you think of the XT ambience expansion ? It sounds like a nice subtle dsp .
BugPowderDust Posted January 31, 2023 Posted January 31, 2023 Hi, no I’ve bought the Core to fulfil the role the AV41 was playing. I’m super keen on ART so will be waiting in earnest for the release. I’ve not got the Storm XT license yet. It’s optional on the Core but included in the elite. this is a useful guide for the differences between the Core and the Elites https://www.stormaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/StormAudio-CI-ISP-MK3-vs-CORE-16-Specification-sheet-2022.08.22.pdf
cwt Posted January 31, 2023 Posted January 31, 2023 1 minute ago, BugPowderDust said: Hi, no I’ve bought the Core to fulfil the role the AV41 was playing. I’m super keen on ART so will be waiting in earnest for the release. I’ve not got the Storm XT license yet. It’s optional on the Core but included in the elite. this is a useful guide for the differences between the Core and the Elites https://www.stormaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/StormAudio-CI-ISP-MK3-vs-CORE-16-Specification-sheet-2022.08.22.pdf Makes sense to wait on ART ; its always the top line brands that introduce new cutting edge features 1st.. I would hazard a guess that the add on expert bass management for routing zones of lfe may be just the ticket for how ART will work .. Its very nice that theres always the option to add specific features to the base model ; more brands should do this
BugPowderDust Posted January 31, 2023 Posted January 31, 2023 No art is way different to the bass management module. It’s next level dsp trickery. You should watch a few of the videos. I just finished running Dirac and bass control on the new storm and it sounds a million bucks. You can barely tell where the subs are in the room, but you can feel and hear them, super punchy but tight and not flabby. very happy 1
Mick08 Posted January 31, 2023 Author Posted January 31, 2023 6 hours ago, BugPowderDust said: I've just installed a Storm Audio ISP Core 16 into my system overnight and I am just amazed at how well thought out the configuration interface is, how flexible it is and how easy it was to make it do pretty much anything I could think of. Usually configuring an AV Pre involves a lot of compromise or workarounds to get everything the way you like it. Not here. Also great was the fact that you can read the manual, follow the bouncing ball and get everything happening very quickly. I took a read the day before my unit arrived, made some notes and then when it arrived I plugged it into my network on my desk and preconfigured the unit in a web browser with a minimum of fuss. The ability to have discrete triggers per source input, delays per trigger that kind of forethought is wonderful. The only niggle I found was a restriction on the amount of inputs (6) I can statically define in my Logitech IR remote without relying on input cycling. Given the amount of inputs that can be used with the unit, even making this 10 would be preferable. I guess if I had a Control4 setup (or similar) this would be less of a hassle. I'm looking forward to getting some silence in the house so I can start the Dirac Live process on this unit and based on my past experiences with Dirac Live Bass Control, I am expecting very good things. Congrats, and thanks for sharing. The Storm is the unit I'm after. Initially wasn't looking at spending quite that much so I have a bit more saving to do. I have it on petty good authority that ART's not far away. 1
cwt Posted February 1, 2023 Posted February 1, 2023 On 31/01/2023 at 4:36 PM, BugPowderDust said: No art is way different to the bass management module. It’s next level dsp trickery. You should watch a few of the videos. I just finished running Dirac and bass control on the new storm and it sounds a million bucks. You can barely tell where the subs are in the room, but you can feel and hear them, super punchy but tight and not flabby. very happy Youve misconstrued me a bit so I should elaborate. ART has as its basis getting each speaker [including subs] to use similar to active noise cancellation tech to nullify peaks and dips . The bass management module has ways to separate multiple sub channels which could be handy in directing phase etc changes from the dsp . That said if the bass management module is redundant when ART is released [it utiIises all the speakers including subs] its one less reason to get the extra's package . Why ? As audioholics says; Quote If you purchased a StormAudio Processor or AVR Jan 1st 2023 or later, the Dirac Live Active Room Treatment firmware update will be included at no additional cost. 1
dlaloum Posted March 4, 2023 Posted March 4, 2023 (edited) Onkyo / Integra have just announced the Integra DRX 8.4 This is the first of their flagship series to be announced. It is a 7.2.4 AVR, with 11 powered channels, rated 150W@8ohm stereo - so it is a beast in the Onkyo tradition of 15 years ago. In processing terms it has pretty much everything that opens and shuts, including Auro3D Room EQ - Dirac Live is included, and Dirac Live Bass Control (DLBC) is optional. Announced at US$3200 Expected to be available through the US Custom Installer channels, by May/June. No word of its pricing anywhere else outside the USA, and no word yet on availability elsewhere. We are still waiting to hear about the Onkyo equivalent sibling expected to be the RZ70, and the top of the line RZ90 AVR & AVP (and their Integra and Pioneer siblings...) - but if they are making and shipping the Integra, one would expect the "badge engineered" siblings would be at the factory at the same time... No mention of DL-ART, but it is clearly running a platform capable of running ART, and it would be surprising if it didn't support ART fairly quickly, once the Storm "exclusive" expires in October... but there are no commitments/announcements on the topic. Edited March 4, 2023 by dlaloum 1
dlaloum Posted March 20, 2023 Posted March 20, 2023 An update... AU pricing for the Integra DRX 8.4 was released last week - AU$5000 The matching (badge engineered) Pioneer LX805, should be around AU$4700 (assuming the ratios hold true) and the Onkyo sibling RZ70 has yet to be announced.
Guest Posted March 20, 2023 Posted March 20, 2023 On 04/03/2023 at 3:51 PM, dlaloum said: Onkyo / Integra have just announced the Integra DRX 8.4 This is the first of their flagship series to be announced. It is a 7.2.4 AVR, with 11 powered channels, rated 150W@8ohm stereo - so it is a beast in the Onkyo tradition of 15 years ago. In processing terms it has pretty much everything that opens and shuts, including Auro3D Room EQ - Dirac Live is included, and Dirac Live Bass Control (DLBC) is optional. Announced at US$3200 Expected to be available through the US Custom Installer channels, by May/June. No word of its pricing anywhere else outside the USA, and no word yet on availability elsewhere. We are still waiting to hear about the Onkyo equivalent sibling expected to be the RZ70, and the top of the line RZ90 AVR & AVP (and their Integra and Pioneer siblings...) - but if they are making and shipping the Integra, one would expect the "badge engineered" siblings would be at the factory at the same time... No mention of DL-ART, but it is clearly running a platform capable of running ART, and it would be surprising if it didn't support ART fairly quickly, once the Storm "exclusive" expires in October... but there are no commitments/announcements on the topic.
BugPowderDust Posted March 24, 2023 Posted March 24, 2023 https://www.stereonet.com/au/reviews/arcam-av41-av-processor-review 2
dlaloum Posted March 25, 2023 Posted March 25, 2023 3 hours ago, BugPowderDust said: https://www.stereonet.com/au/reviews/arcam-av41-av-processor-review The Arcam's (and JBL Twins) - have been available for a while, in a substantially higher price bracket... The Pioneer & Integra (and soon I assume Onkyo as well) - are bringing that level of performance and functional capabilities into a lower price bracket... If that competition ends up bringing Arcom/JBL pricing down to a more reasonable level - that would be all to the good!
roh008 Posted April 10, 2023 Posted April 10, 2023 @BugPowderDust thanks for the link to this thread. Insightful read, seems like some of the tech is coming out later this year (ART). New tech comes at a premium (and bugs) so might also sit tight for a little longer. I felt the market was experimenting with different tech but had not brought it all together, and now finally they are bringing it all together in to one processor. Do these processors apply Linkwitz curves for low level listening? What power amps do you all run for Hi-Fi set ups? Or when you are running this AV processors you stick to multi ch amps to allow for HiFi and Cinema? I would sell everything and essentially build around AV41 or JBL (or similar) for both Hi-Fi and Cinema requirements. Feels like I’m going back to the old days when receivers became all the rage?!
roh008 Posted April 10, 2023 Posted April 10, 2023 On 31/1/2023 at 4:36 PM, BugPowderDust said: You can barely tell where the subs are in the room, but you can feel and hear them, super punchy but tight and not flabby. How flexible can a user be with sub placement? In other words, if there aren’t many options to place it, will it still integrate it nicely?
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