Guest Posted April 10, 2023 Posted April 10, 2023 14 minutes ago, roh008 said: What power amps do you all run for Hi-Fi set ups? Or when you are running this AV processors you stick to multi ch amps to allow for HiFi and Cinema? In my case, I have the JBL SDP-55 in a network rack, along with dedicated Sub and Multichannel JBL Amps for the surround (and sub) channels. The preouts for the L + R channels from my processor then run via 10m XLR cables to Mark Levinson ML50 monos located next to the L+R speakers (JBL Everest). So for 2-channel, I'm still using dedicated high-end amplifiers. It really is the best of both worlds and arguably, finally, without compromise now when wanting a dual purpose system for 2-channel and surround. 2
roh008 Posted April 10, 2023 Posted April 10, 2023 Wow ok that’s quite a set up Do you run a seperate front LRC sound stage for cinema or do you use JBLs for that too? A profile (or whatever JBL call it) for music and a profile for movies? I might invest in the ‘brain’ AV41/JBL and hit the classifieds for 2ch power amps for Hi-Fi and 5ch Amp for Cinema duties. I’m getting close to letting NAS duties lapse for music and stream lossless (Tidal/Apple music etc) as the ability to access 100k+songs compared to my 10,000 FLAC is not growing at the same pace. Do you hear a difference between NAS stored music and streamed music (i’m not chasing the last 2-5%)
Guest Posted April 10, 2023 Posted April 10, 2023 I use the Everests for L+R duties in surround as well, and a JBL 4722n as centre channel behind the acoustically transparent screen. Seperate profiles to a degree yes, as in Roon mode, it's using Stereo mode on the processor. From there I can choose whether I want to engage subs as well (which I am doing more and more for 2 channel listening). And of course, I can engage Dirac for either as well. So to answer your question, yes you can choose many listening modes, and on top of that have up to 3 slots stored with Dirac tunes/curves. I still lean towards my stored high-res NAS-stored music via Roon over streamed services. Though Qobuz via Roon appears to be getting very close, depending on the recording/version. 1
BugPowderDust Posted April 10, 2023 Posted April 10, 2023 55 minutes ago, roh008 said: What power amps do you all run for Hi-Fi set ups? Or when you are running this AV processors you stick to multi ch amps to allow for HiFi and Cinema? I’m similar to @Marc but I’m on JBL K2 S9900 fronts, a pair of subs (rel 212/sx and paradigm sub1) and amplification is a pair of mcintosh mc1201s and a classe 5 channel power amp for surround and centre. Mono blocks are essential if you really want the best out of big fronts. The surround speakers are very happy with a multichannel power amp. 53 minutes ago, roh008 said: How flexible can a user be with sub placement? In other words, if there aren’t many options to place it, will it still integrate it nicely? I have zero flexibility with sub positioning in my house. Dsp is essential in smoothing the in room response and getting the mains and the subs integrated properly. Dirac live bass control has done a superlative job on this for me. I’m eager to see how much better it will be with art when it lands in the next month.
BugPowderDust Posted April 10, 2023 Posted April 10, 2023 35 minutes ago, roh008 said: Wow ok that’s quite a set up Do you run a seperate front LRC sound stage for cinema or do you use JBLs for that too? A profile (or whatever JBL call it) for music and a profile for movies? I might invest in the ‘brain’ AV41/JBL and hit the classifieds for 2ch power amps for Hi-Fi and 5ch Amp for Cinema duties. I’m getting close to letting NAS duties lapse for music and stream lossless (Tidal/Apple music etc) as the ability to access 100k+songs compared to my 10,000 FLAC is not growing at the same pace. Do you hear a difference between NAS stored music and streamed music (i’m not chasing the last 2-5%) In my case, I’ve run Dirac and tuned it with my own target curve. I don’t find a need to switch between Dirac filters when switching between movies and stereo, but it helps that I’ve given it a 6db boost in the bass ranges. You can download the Harman target curves here: https://youthmanreviews.com/harman-target-curves-for-dirac-live/ I know many people have unique filters for movies and stereo, but I don't currently find much need. But it's great that Dirac let's you measure once and then cut filters all day long for use on your processor so you can fill your boots with experimentation. I have circa 60,000 tracks on my NAS (all FLAC) but I don't easily spot the difference to qobuz on Roon. In fact, differences would be more likely to be different releases / masters than anything else.
cwt Posted April 10, 2023 Posted April 10, 2023 On 25/03/2023 at 2:41 PM, dlaloum said: The Arcam's (and JBL Twins) - have been available for a while, in a substantially higher price bracket... The Pioneer & Integra (and soon I assume Onkyo as well) - are bringing that level of performance and functional capabilities into a lower price bracket... If that competition ends up bringing Arcom/JBL pricing down to a more reasonable level - that would be all to the good! The good thing is the arcam av40 [if you can get hold of one] very probably has the same circuitry as the new 41 . They like incremental improvements ; in this case a hdmi 2.1 board instead of 2.0b .. If you dont need ps5 /x box 2.1 features any of the ARCAM clones would be worth making an offer on runout if available.. The JBL 2.0 models with dante will be worth a look when the inevitable 2.1 boards turn up
BugPowderDust Posted April 10, 2023 Posted April 10, 2023 48 minutes ago, cwt said: The good thing is the arcam av40 [if you can get hold of one] very probably has the same circuitry as the new 41 . They like incremental improvements ; in this case a hdmi 2.1 board instead of 2.0b .. If you dont need ps5 /x box 2.1 features any of the ARCAM clones would be worth making an offer on runout if available.. The JBL 2.0 models with dante will be worth a look when the inevitable 2.1 boards turn up You're bang on. Arcam's AV40 and AV41 are identical apart from the HDMI board, just as the JBL SDP-55 is the same as the SDP-58 with the new HDMI board. My new Storm Audio runs a HDMI 2.0 board and will be upgradeable one day, but given I only run a 60" 1080p screen it's clear I bought it for reasons other than video performance. 1
roh008 Posted April 10, 2023 Posted April 10, 2023 For those interested in the DIRAC Active Room Treatment (ART) add-on for DIRAC Live DLBT there is a webinar on Wednesday 12th April 5pm https://register.gotowebinar.com/rt/5454942597958137687 change time zone and select the 5pm AEST time.
betty boop Posted April 10, 2023 Posted April 10, 2023 (edited) 7 hours ago, roh008 said: What power amps do you all run for Hi-Fi set ups? Or when you are running this AV processors you stick to multi ch amps to allow for HiFi and Cinema? hi Roh, am running the marantz av10 and amp10 for av, and 2ch pre and power for mains and 2ch and dedicated 2ch sources vinyl and digital . both sides integrate seamlessly not compromising either 7 hours ago, roh008 said: hanks for the link to this thread. Insightful read, seems like some of the tech is coming out later this year (ART). New tech comes at a premium (and bugs) so might also sit tight for a little longer. I felt the market was experimenting with different tech but had not brought it all together, and now finally they are bringing it all together in to one processor. the marantz av10-amp10 combo i am so far finding bug free. any bugs i believe are coming from dirac. i'll let them sort that before bothering to venture that ways ... Edited April 10, 2023 by betty boop
BugPowderDust Posted April 10, 2023 Posted April 10, 2023 (edited) I am aware that some new hardware platforms had a buggy ride early on, but Dirac wasn’t the cause in this. ART has been in beta for well over 6 months so I don’t expect a lot of issues with it on arrival: especially as it is only landing first on the more “premium” Storm product lines where they can test and iterate with less hardware models / manufacturers to contend with. Has marantz committed to an add on for ART yet? Edited April 10, 2023 by BugPowderDust
roh008 Posted April 10, 2023 Posted April 10, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, betty boop said: hi Roh, am running the marantz av10 and amp10 for av, and 2ch pre and power for mains and 2ch and dedicated 2ch sources vinyl and digital . both sides integrate seamlessly not compromising either Hey Al! It’s been ages since I dropped by your Diva showcase thread, been away from audio for a bit. (I’m heading over there now to see the latest updates you have going!) I sort of remember your set up from a couple of years back. 2 hours ago, betty boop said: free. any bugs i believe are coming from dirac. i'll let them sort that before bothering to venture that way DIRAC room correction and DLBT are the main reasoning to venture down this path, along with the upcoming ART. The benefit that pre-amp/DAC are of a high quality to forgo external DAC and pre-amp for music is also a key reason I’m even entertaining this path. My understanding for those running the Arcam AV51 and JBL and Storm are to have the ability to combine all those aspects in to one system? Then have dedicated 2ch Power Amp and 5Ch surround amp. Edited April 10, 2023 by roh008 1
betty boop Posted April 10, 2023 Posted April 10, 2023 11 minutes ago, roh008 said: Hey Al! It’s been ages since I dropped by your Diva showcase thread, been away from audio for a bit. (I’m heading over there now to see the latest updates you have going!) I sort of remember your set up from a couple of years back. Hi Roh it’s good to see you around, 2ch wise been not much if any changes as very happy with that. Ht Av wise as steps up and improvements have presented have stepped up running a 9.1.6 setup with ch and TS/vog arrangement these days to take advantage of 3D audio and some more updates in the wings will get around to … constantly impressed how things continue to improve 1
cwt Posted April 11, 2023 Posted April 11, 2023 17 hours ago, roh008 said: The benefit that pre-amp/DAC are of a high quality to forgo external DAC and pre-amp for music is also a key reason I’m even entertaining this path. My understanding for those running the Arcam AV51 and JBL and Storm are to have the ability to combine all those aspects in to one system? Then have dedicated 2ch Power Amp and 5Ch surround amp. The power amp question roh maybe depends on what you have now and if you are going for a full atmos system later . Theoretically I would put more weight for 2ch reproduction on the low level pre amp signals integrity [ easily hit with noise emf compared to the robust line level amplification in your power amp ] . So dedicated power amps are one option ; the other is a single large power amp as Al has done for his movie playback ; though still running an isolated 2ch pre power amp Quote Do these processors apply Linkwitz curves for low level listening? I would bet audyssey dynamic eq is more sophisticated than a bass/treble shelve that was established ages ago ; so it depends on brand i guess .. this audyssey guide covers different sources - Quote You can choose from: 5dB: choose this one for files that have broader ‘dynamic range’ like classical songs 10dB: this is for jazz music or any other content with broad dynamic range as well as TV 15dB: choose this one for pop/rock music
roh008 Posted April 11, 2023 Posted April 11, 2023 5 hours ago, cwt said: though still running an isolated 2ch pre power amp I'm not sure I understood the benefit of that for what I am wanting. Reading some users speaker set up ($20k-$100k+) A number seem to suggest the JBL/Arcam/(Storm) allow them to do away with peripherals and simply use the pre-pro (for music and movies) and have added (v. high end in some cases) power amps to taste. Have I missed something? @cwt@Marc @BugPowderDust @El Tel I'm a believer that room correction would have a bigger impact than running a dedicated (<$3k) 2Chpre for music?
BugPowderDust Posted April 12, 2023 Posted April 12, 2023 @roh008 you are on the money there. I run big monoblock power amps as I have big, powerful speakers that really get up and dance with lots of power on tap. I run a multi-channel power amp for the surrounds (centre, surround rear and one day, two atmos height channels). The surround speakers rarely have the same kind of performance profile as your mains, unless you have designed a surround-only system for AV use. They can typically perform well with less esoteric amplification, so consolidation of surround channels on a multi-channel power amp can make sense. My centre channel is a big speaker (Paradigm Signature C5) and can take some serious power, but the rest of my surrounds are very happy with less juice. This is why people separate the front LR channels from the surround channels with respect to amplification. You can have lots of power on tap for the fronts and only turn on the surround amplifier when you need to, through the judicious use of trigger outputs. I've been designing a system that performs exceedingly well on stereo duties (2 mains, two subs) and does more than well enough in surround mode; But the focus has long been on 2 channel listening. That said, you don't need hulking monoblocks to drive most mains. Boxes like the NAD C298 or the Benchmark AHB2 are smaller amps, never run hot and have superlative performance. They can be run in 2 channel or mono configuration as well, so you could start with one and then migrate to monoblock mode later. In terms of potential for a transformative result in your system, after speakers and adequate amplification, I'd put room correction only after room treatment in terms of a performance uplift. Everything else (cables, switches, streamers) are way down the list of where I'd spend money first.
cwt Posted April 12, 2023 Posted April 12, 2023 (edited) 15 hours ago, roh008 said: I'm not sure I understood the benefit of that for what I am wanting. Reading some users speaker set up ($20k-$100k+) A number seem to suggest the JBL/Arcam/(Storm) allow them to do away with peripherals and simply use the pre-pro (for music and movies) and have added (v. high end in some cases) power amps to taste. Have I missed something? @cwt@Marc @BugPowderDust @El Tel I'm a believer that room correction would have a bigger impact than running a dedicated (<$3k) 2Chpre for music? Was just referencing that Al incorporated an already bought 2ch pre power amp system with his main system with h/t bypass ; starting from the ground up [ and simplifying things as you are inclined] I would consider losing the separate 2ch power amp and just go with a single power amp for both movies and music as is possible now with the likes of class d 16 ch power amps now available Yes room correction would be much more important to me too ; a flat frequency response [or one with a slight treble slope to match our ears preference] is why harman kardon curves and the like are the go I would be going with paring down as well as I have a long standing preference for multichannel sound emulating a space ; but thats off topic here Edited April 12, 2023 by cwt 1
betty boop Posted April 29, 2023 Posted April 29, 2023 On 11/4/2023 at 9:23 PM, roh008 said: I'm not sure I understood the benefit of that for what I am wanting. Reading some users speaker set up ($20k-$100k+) A number seem to suggest the JBL/Arcam/(Storm) allow them to do away with peripherals and simply use the pre-pro (for music and movies) and have added (v. high end in some cases) power amps to taste. Have I missed something? @cwt@Marc @BugPowderDust @El Tel I'm a believer that room correction would have a bigger impact than running a dedicated (<$3k) 2Chpre for music? might want to have a peep at gene from audioholics comment below, in response to some one else asking similar question ... gene has been spending a bit of time with the marantz av10 and been quite suitably impressed it seems. I myself have a pretty decent 2ch pre and seperate phono stage and dedicated sources etc so will continue to use a dedicated 2ch pre... i see these things (as with anything i guess) as typically a matter of opinion and just how much compromise willing to accept ... https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/marantz-av-10-15-4ch-av-processor-bench-test-results.127208/post-1600224 1
BugPowderDust Posted April 29, 2023 Posted April 29, 2023 The av10 looks a good unit for sure, but if I'm using it in a 2 channel setup, I want Dirac Live, Bass Control and ART, I don't want an analog bypass. I'd also never use an onboard phono pre either. I'm tinkering with ART now on my Storm processor and the change is quite pronounced in the bottom end. I'm sworn to secrecy about much for now but I hope to spend today recutting all of my filters from the same target curve and then running rew to measure the variations from unprocessed, dirac live, with bass control and with art. 3 1
roh008 Posted July 10, 2023 Posted July 10, 2023 On 29/04/2023 at 10:23 AM, betty boop said: time with the marantz av10 Hi Al, what made you go with the AV10 over say JBL SDP55/58? IF... I go down this path, I'm looking to consolidate everything in to a pre-pro and 2ch amp and 5ch power amps. So key points would be looking for a good DAC/pre-amp/Room and Bass correction (hence leaning towards the JBL)
betty boop Posted July 10, 2023 Posted July 10, 2023 4 minutes ago, roh008 said: Hi Al, what made you go with the AV10 over say JBL SDP55/58? hi roh, if seen level of engineering gone into the av10 its reminiscent of the big daddy denon avp processor years gone by i also had.. those things were like nothing else on the planet ! the other thing with marantz it just all works... I'm very impressed with both the av10 and amp 10 combo too... JBL and arcam have a pretty shoddy track record... i am am at that point in life i want things that just work... i have also been very impressed with the upgradeability of 3 generation and over the years support of denon/marantz flagship processors i have owned so far...so should see some longevity there ... 4 minutes ago, roh008 said: IF... I go down this path, I'm looking to consolidate everything in to a pre-pro and 2ch amp and 5ch power amps. So key points would be looking for a good DAC/pre-amp/Room and Bass correction (hence leaning towards the JBL) i personally have all that already ..so dont have that need to try get that out of a processor... i am happy with my 2ch side with a nice 2ch pre power thats a lovely match to my speakers. a turntable and digital sources i dont have any need to upgrade so can sit pretty with the 2ch side and now have an av side can also sit back enjoy on the av side the av10 allowed me to take things to 9.1.6 , i am looking forward to augmenting the sub bass side for quad subs that audyssey does discretely and...look forward to dirac upgrades as they come through.. from my understanding they are all coming at some stage..beyond the level the processor already has.
roh008 Posted July 10, 2023 Posted July 10, 2023 2 minutes ago, betty boop said: i am happy with my 2ch side with a nice 2ch pre power yes - was just on your thread noted the M8-pre - makes sense not to bother with using the other elements. 1
betty boop Posted July 10, 2023 Posted July 10, 2023 (edited) 8 minutes ago, roh008 said: yes - was just on your thread noted the M8-pre - makes sense not to bother with using the other elements. love the thing... its kinda scary but have had the pre power combo for a decade now am one of those, where if happy then best leave well alone.. no need to go meddling there.. just opens other cans of worms Edited July 10, 2023 by betty boop 2
roh008 Posted July 15, 2023 Posted July 15, 2023 On 10/1/2023 at 7:34 PM, Mick08 said: Hi All I will shortly be in the market for an AV Processor. I’m currently leaning towards the Anthem AVM 90 but I’m open to looking at other suggestions. I was also looking at the JBL SDP 58 which does seem like a very similar product to the Arcam AV41 but with logic 16 and there still seems to be some bugs with Dirac on those units that concerns me. The other option I’m looking at but will require more time saving $$ is the Lyngdorf MP 40. my current speaker setup is a 7.2.4 using the Krix MX30 and Krix Phonix for the surrounds and will likely add two more subs to the back of the room down the track so a processor that can process 4 subs independently is what I’m after rather than adding a miniDSP. Thanks and I look forward to hearing from some knowledgeable people for some input Regards Mick Hey Mick, How did your shopping go? I’m in the same situation as you - it’s a bit of a leap of faith consolidating 2ch gear in to a pre-pro. Almost like going back to where I started, except these aren’t exactly entry Level pre-pro 1
roh008 Posted November 6, 2023 Posted November 6, 2023 Rather than start a new thread - just adding to this one, can anyone confirm if the DIRAC-ART will be an additional cost for AV10 or JBL SDP-55?
betty boop Posted November 6, 2023 Posted November 6, 2023 (edited) 13 minutes ago, roh008 said: Rather than start a new thread - just adding to this one, can anyone confirm if the DIRAC-ART will be an additional cost for AV10 or JBL SDP-55? whadya reckon… dirac's whole business model is based on "additional cost" its the funding model for their money tree.. so yes its additional cost...as with anything else like base license or DLBC and such ... can see license costs for base limited and either full bandwidth or upgrade to ... https://www.dirac.com/online-store/marantz-av-10/ also remember to add cost for the suitable calibrated mic, if dont want to ,theres always audyssey. it has some extra costs too if want in the app $30 usd or audyssey x and mic if want to go there. Edited November 6, 2023 by betty boop 1
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