TP1 Posted April 27, 2014 Author Posted April 27, 2014 The Adams have an input impedance of 10k and the CSL output impedance is 500 Ohm. That does not leave room for much deviation. The effect I get with the Jungsons on single ended connection is quite special and it evokes all the positive descriptions that you would have read from owners. With the XLR connection the sound by comparison is flat and rounded. The CSL's startling transparency is not apparent and the imaging and soundstage has shrunk. Without having heard the SE connection, someone might think it still sounds Ok but it wouldn't grab them like the star struck Coincident owners. If the Tensors sound on song with other preamps, then the only way I can think of to test with the CSL is to use a high quality transformer based interface which should have less compatibility issues. The unit that was sent to Queensland had an outstanding performance on Jonsey's system driving a pair of a Gryphon Colosseum monoblocks which powered Dynaudio Evidence Masters. So we now know the CSL can perform perfectly with many balanced power amps but there are a couple of exceptions. Jeff, I think your very thorough selection process has taught us quite a bit about a number of preamps including the Coincident. Thank you for your perseverance!
jrisles Posted April 27, 2014 Posted April 27, 2014 The Adams have an input impedance of 10k and the CSL output impedance is 500 Ohm. That does not leave room for much deviation. The effect I get with the Jungsons on single ended connection is quite special and it evokes all the positive descriptions that you would have read from owners. With the XLR connection the sound by comparison is flat and rounded. The CSL's startling transparency is not apparent and the imaging and soundstage has shrunk. Without having heard the SE connection, someone might think it still sounds Ok but it wouldn't grab them like the star struck Coincident owners. If the Tensors sound on song with other preamps, then the only way I can think of to test with the CSL is to use a high quality transformer based interface which should have less compatibility issues. The unit that was sent to Queensland had an outstanding performance on Jonsey's system driving a pair of a Gryphon Colosseum monoblocks which powered Dynaudio Evidence Masters. So we now know the CSL can perform perfectly with many balanced power amps but there are a couple of exceptions. Jeff, I think your very thorough selection process has taught us quite a bit about a number of preamps including the Coincident. Thank you for your perseverance! Hi Tasso - well that is an interesting comment re your comparison of SE and XLR connectivity to the Jungsons. What you have described about the sound when using XLR is exactly what i heard with the Adam's. The sound was flat, rounded and in no way transparent. Just wondering do the Jungson's cater for both SE and XLR input connectivity? Also is the output impedance the same on the CSLS whether one chooses to use XLR's or SE's? I should also add that i had the benefit of having the Audio Research Ref 5 SE at the same time as demo'ing the CSLS - i was able to conduct an immediate comparison & nothing was changed when i changed the preamps (ie cables used were exactly the same). I also did the same test on a friends system (his speakers are not Adam's) but a Horn type of speaker using XLR input connectivity and even in his system and by comparison came up with the same results - that is to say that "by comparison" when compared against his preamp (Octave HP500SE) and the AR Ref 5SE & my Eddie Current Balancing Act the CSLS did not sound as good as any of these pre's in his system or mine (although we didn't test my ECBA in my friends system). It sounds like had we been able to use RCA's or used a high quality **transformer the outcome is most certainly likely to have been different. **(not too sure what you mean by this btw - are you suggesting something like a TVC in the chain? I have one of those and could of used it had i thought adding this would of made a difference)
jrisles Posted April 27, 2014 Posted April 27, 2014 I also re-read the reviews on the CSLS. Reading the Enjoy the Music review it reads like this particular reviewer conducted his review using RCA's only. Whilst the 2nd reviewer from Stereo Mojo seems to read like he tried both - although it is not really clear. I have emailed the reviewer of the Stereo Mojo review to get confirmation of what type of connections he used in his review. http://www.enjoythemusic.com/superioraudio/equipment/0410/coincident_statement_line_stage.htm http://www.stereomojo.com/CoincidentStatementLinestageReview.htm/CoincidentStatementLinestageReview.htm How can you account for the differences in sound simply be switching between RCA and XLR? Usually XLR is meant to sound better but in this case it would seem it does not. Is there something wrong with his "Balanced Design" you think?
WhakPak Posted April 27, 2014 Posted April 27, 2014 I wouldn't have thought XLR would sound any different to SE connection...on my Halcro rig I can't pick one from the other
jrisles Posted April 27, 2014 Posted April 27, 2014 I wouldn't have thought XLR would sound any different to SE connection...on my Halcro rig I can't pick one from the other brodricj are you referring to using the CSLS as your pre?
TP1 Posted April 27, 2014 Author Posted April 27, 2014 I also re-read the reviews on the CSLS. Reading the Enjoy the Music review it reads like this particular reviewer conducted his review using RCA's only. Whilst the 2nd reviewer from Stereo Mojo seems to read like he tried both - although it is not really clear. I have emailed the reviewer of the Stereo Mojo review to get confirmation of what type of connections he used in his review. http://www.enjoythemusic.com/superioraudio/equipment/0410/coincident_statement_line_stage.htm http://www.stereomojo.com/CoincidentStatementLinestageReview.htm/CoincidentStatementLinestageReview.htm How can you account for the differences in sound simply be switching between RCA and XLR? Usually XLR is meant to sound better but in this case it would seem it does not. Is there something wrong with his "Balanced Design" you think? The differences are isolated issues because with most fully balanced power amps the CSL performs flawlessly via XLR. I am now wondering if the balanced output could have a higher output impedance than the SE , which would account for inconsistencies we have experienced. The official description of the CSL is that it is balanced but as we now know, the balanced output is derived from the SE output. I think the following article describes the differences well between impedance matched, transformer matched and active balanced signals. http://community.avid.com/forums/t/58612.aspx
TP1 Posted April 27, 2014 Author Posted April 27, 2014 I wouldn't have thought XLR would sound any different to SE connection...on my Halcro rig I can't pick one from the other It is like that with the CSL with most power amps too. BTW, when I brought my preamp to your place, how did we hook it up to your Halcro power amps- XLR or RCA?
WhakPak Posted April 27, 2014 Posted April 27, 2014 XLR. Remember there was a noise issue with the CSLS and the Halcro power amp when AC ground lift was engaged. You had a theory on the reason for that, can't remember what it was though.
WhakPak Posted April 27, 2014 Posted April 27, 2014 brodricj are you referring to using the CSLS as your pre? No. Just a general observation solely based on my experience when connecting a Halcro pre-amp to a Halcro power amp (of which 3 methods are available, current mode, balanced voltage mode, and unbalanced voltage mode).
TP1 Posted April 27, 2014 Author Posted April 27, 2014 XLR. Remember there was a noise issue with the CSLS and the Halcro power amp when AC ground lift was engaged. You had a theory on the reason for that, can't remember what it was though. I thought we used XLR - there were no compatibility issues sound wise. I remember the buzz but I can't recall whether it was caused by the ground lift switch or when the mute switch was activated. Either way I remember Israel Blume saying that they have corrected the issue on newer preamps.
jrisles Posted April 27, 2014 Posted April 27, 2014 No. Just a general observation solely based on my experience when connecting a Halcro pre-amp to a Halcro power amp (of which 3 methods are available, current mode, balanced voltage mode, and unbalanced voltage mode). Yes i agree - and for the most part i agree. When changing from RCA to XLR you usually get a performance equal if not better to that of your RCA connectivity provided the rest of your system is XLR also. I must stress i never got the opportunity to hear the CSLS using RCA's as my system is geared for XLR. I am only trying to ascertain how my experience with his pre does not seem to match up with others who have posted on here about this pre. And it would seem for the most part everyone has been using RCA's and not XLR's when using this pre.
WhakPak Posted April 27, 2014 Posted April 27, 2014 In my system (and I guess similar to many) it is very straight forward swapping between balanced and unbalanced connections for a/b comparison, just a matter of flipping a switch on the pre- and power. I do notice a slight difference between balanced and unbalanced when connecting sources to the pre-, primarily because I have a 5m cable run and the unbalanced cable can pick up some noise which manifests itself as a low level hiss in the speaker mid/tweeter which I don't hear with the balanced connection. But at normal listening volume, again, no discernible difference.
AudioGeek Posted April 27, 2014 Posted April 27, 2014 I prefer rca connections on my csls. Having said that, my active speakers only have an rca input and I was using an xlr to rca cable between preamp and speakers.
jrisles Posted April 27, 2014 Posted April 27, 2014 In my system (and I guess similar to many) it is very straight forward swapping between balanced and unbalanced connections for a/b comparison, just a matter of flipping a switch on the pre- and power. I do notice a slight difference between balanced and unbalanced when connecting sources to the pre-, primarily because I have a 5m cable run and the unbalanced cable can pick up some noise which manifests itself as a low level hiss in the speaker mid/tweeter which I don't hear with the balanced connection. But at normal listening volume, again, no discernible difference. I suspect this all depends on the type of power amp you have. I have no rca's on my power amps which are actually built into my active speakers. It only accepts an XLR input so there is no switch on my power amp. And yes there are two toggle switches on the pre between balanaced and unbalanced. A toggle for the input and a toggle for the output. Both of these were set to their correct position. I am not too sure what would have occurred they were set to unbalanced if i was using balanced. Would it still output a sound i wonder? Does this toggle the correct circuitry so in the event it wasn't on the correct setting there would be no sound?
Stereophilus Posted April 27, 2014 Posted April 27, 2014 I suspect this all depends on the type of power amp you have. I have no rca's on my power amps which are actually built into my active speakers. It only accepts an XLR input so there is no switch on my power amp. And yes there are two toggle switches on the pre between balanaced and unbalanced. A toggle for the input and a toggle for the output. Both of these were set to their correct position. I am not too sure what would have occurred they were set to unbalanced if i was using balanced. Would it still output a sound i wonder? Does this toggle the correct circuitry so in the event it wasn't on the correct setting there would be no sound? I just tried it. Flicking the input toggle (bal vs unbal) does mute the unelected input. However, on the output, with my XLR cables attached, switching to unbalanced toggle position I still get music... I will investigate further on SQ.
WhakPak Posted April 27, 2014 Posted April 27, 2014 With the I/O switching on the Halcro's you get exactly what you ask for, the active I/O does not couple with any non-selected I/O.
Stereophilus Posted April 27, 2014 Posted April 27, 2014 I just tried it. Flicking the input toggle (bal vs unbal) does mute the unelected input. However, on the output, with my XLR cables attached, switching to unbalanced toggle position I still get music... I will investigate further on SQ. Perhaps predictably there is a difference. Bear in mind that I only use XLR ICs, and my power amp only accepts XLR inputs. If I toggle to unbalanced output I get more noise from the tweeters (inaudible from the listening position) but also a flatter, drier more lifeless sound. It is not a small difference, and is immediately noticed. This suggests to me that, into a balanced power amp at least, the setting on the output switch is very important to the overall SQ. 1
jrisles Posted April 27, 2014 Posted April 27, 2014 Perhaps predictably there is a difference. Bear in mind that I only use XLR ICs, and my power amp only accepts XLR inputs. If I toggle to unbalanced output I get more noise from the tweeters (inaudible from the listening position) but also a flatter, drier more lifeless sound. It is not a small difference, and is immediately noticed. This suggests to me that, into a balanced power amp at least, the setting on the output switch is very important to the overall SQ. Hmm well this is interesting ... even though i am sure i checked and double checked these settings i did not play around with them once set to their respective correct positions but the differences in sound you have just described sounds very similar to my description and Tasso's description with his Jungson's - i wonder just wonder if there is a QA issue here? That perhaps the rear of some of these units are incorrectly labelled on the output? That is to say the label indicates one thing when in fact it should be the other? So when i thought i was positioning to be compatible with an XLR output the switch was actually going to unbalanced mode even though the label indicated otherwise?
Stereophilus Posted April 27, 2014 Posted April 27, 2014 Hmm well this is interesting ... even though i am sure i checked and double checked these settings i did not play around with them once set to their respective correct positions but the differences in sound you have just described sounds very similar to my description and Tasso's description with his Jungson's - i wonder just wonder if there is a QA issue here? That perhaps the rear of some of these units are incorrectly labelled on the output? That is to say the label indicates one thing when in fact it should be the other? So when i thought i was positioning to be compatible with an XLR output the switch was actually going to unbalanced mode even though the label indicated otherwise? I think @@Tasso has several power amplifiers and may be able to investigate further.
TP1 Posted April 27, 2014 Author Posted April 27, 2014 I bought Rob's Gryphon Antileon Signature and I have finally had a chance today to hook it up properly. I can attest to excellent XLR connectivity between it and the Coincident preamp. I have also tried the connection using RCA outputs from the CSLS to the Gryphon using good quality RCA to XLR converter cables and there was a loss of SQ. 3
Nada Posted April 27, 2014 Posted April 27, 2014 I bought Rob's Gryphon Antileon Signature and I have finally had a chance today to hook it up properly. I can attest to excellent XLR connectivity between it and the Coincident preamp. I have also tried the connection using RCA outputs from the CSLS to the Gryphon using good quality RCA to XLR converter cables and there was a loss of SQ. So what happens if you take out the RCA cables and just use the XLR's from the CSLS to the monster and then flick the balanced/unbalanced switch on the back as per: Bear in mind that I only use XLR ICs, and my power amp only accepts XLR inputs. If I toggle to unbalanced output I get more noise from the tweeters (inaudible from the listening position) but also a flatter, drier more lifeless sound. It is not a small difference, and is immediately noticed. This suggests to me that, into a balanced power amp at least, the setting on the output switch is very important to the overall SQ
jrisles Posted April 27, 2014 Posted April 27, 2014 (edited) I bought Rob's Gryphon Antileon Signature and I have finally had a chance today to hook it up properly. I can attest to excellent XLR connectivity between it and the Coincident preamp. I have also tried the connection using RCA outputs from the CSLS to the Gryphon using good quality RCA to XLR converter cables and there was a loss of SQ. Just to confirm i was not using any form of RCA to XLR cables or RCA to XLR adaptors when i had the unit. I only used direct XLR to XLR connectivity to the Adams from the pre. The whole setup was ALL XLR connectivity. I only indicated in a previous post that it would of been great to try RCA to XLR connectivity to see if i got a better result with the RCA outputs on the CSLS because alot of those who tested and posted their reviews on the CSLS did so using RCA connectivity (albeit not converting to XLR). But judging from your post Tasso the SQ may have been worse. Very perplexing is all i can say. Edited April 27, 2014 by jrisles
TP1 Posted April 28, 2014 Author Posted April 28, 2014 (edited) Just to confirm i was not using any form of RCA to XLR cables or RCA to XLR adaptors when i had the unit. I only used direct XLR to XLR connectivity to the Adams from the pre. The whole setup was ALL XLR connectivity. I only indicated in a previous post that it would of been great to try RCA to XLR connectivity to see if i got a better result with the RCA outputs on the CSLS because alot of those who tested and posted their reviews on the CSLS did so using RCA connectivity (albeit not converting to XLR). But judging from your post Tasso the SQ may have been worse. Very perplexing is all i can say. Using the RCA output of the Coincident via the converter cable did produce a respectable sound- it was just not quite as good as from the XLR. It was way better than the mismatch I heard with the Jungsons (I need to try those with the converter cable before they are sold) However, I was using good quality Accuphase XLR cables to connect the pre and power amps and the cables for the RCA to XLR conversion are not so illustrious ( brand unknown). However, using a converter cable connected to RCA should reveal if there is a problem with the XLR connectivity between a preamp and the Adams. If it still sounds "off" with the converter cable I think the problem is most likely an impedance issue. Edited April 28, 2014 by Tasso
jrisles Posted April 28, 2014 Posted April 28, 2014 (edited) Using the RCA output of the Coincident via the converter cable did produce a respectable sound- it was just not quite as good as from the XLR. It was way better than the mismatch I heard with the Jungsons (I need to try those with the converter cable before they are sold) However, I was using good quality Accuphase XLR cables to connect the pre and power amps and the cables for the RCA to XLR conversion are not so illustrious ( brand unknown). However, using a converter cable connected to RCA should reveal if there is a problem with the XLR connectivity between a preamp and the Adams. If it still sounds "off" with the converter cable I think the problem is most likely an impedance issue. It's just crazy - NO item that i have ever used sounds worse in a balanced mode then it does with RCA - in fact the theory and in my case in most instances the practice has been the contrary. Provided the rest of your ancillaries are also balanced then you should get a better sound when using balanced then you do with RCA. At no time when i have used XLR's does it sound worse than RCA's. I suspect it must be an impedance mismatch with the Adam and also an impedance mismatch to the horn speakers my friend uses. As with all recommendations the onus is on the potential purchaser to "try before they buy". Edited April 28, 2014 by jrisles
TP1 Posted April 28, 2014 Author Posted April 28, 2014 So what happens if you take out the RCA cables and just use the XLR's from the CSLS to the monster and then flick the balanced/unbalanced switch on the back as per: When I flick the output switch from "balanced" to "unbalanced" I get a lot of buzzing. I suspect it must be an impedance mismatch with the Adam and also an impedance mismatch to the horn speakers my friend uses. As with all recommendations the onus is on the potential purchaser to "try before they buy". That seems like the most logical explanation. However, it might be helpful to ask Israel Blume if he knows how to resolve the issue given that the Adams are balanced input only.
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