DAB+

[georgehifi]

On 31/01/2023 at 12:25 PM, MLXXX said:

You get an artificial spray of treble with "s" sounds.

 

That's your system, I don't get that, it's as sweet as a nut, if down a little on detail compared to CD.

Cheers George

[georgehifi]

Just tuned in my DAB+, Internet, FM streamer to ABC Classical. And output from it's digital spdif output into my MSB discrete dac

I compared ABC Classical, DAB+ v Internet v FM,  all A/B'd live switched between all 3 on the same Classical piece/s and it was obvious.

1st  DAB+, wide/deep sound staging, bass well defined and quite low, extended highs

2nd Internet, sound staging just between the speakers, not as much depth lower bass lighter, little ill defined, highs slightly rolled off

3rd FM, sounded average, though it was AM when compared to the other two.

 

Note: I did not use the streamers dac, it's sounds rubbish compared to the MSB R2R Discrete. 

 

Cheers George   

Edited February 4, 2023 by georgehifi

[MLXXX]

1 hour ago, georgehifi said:

2nd Internet,

Yes the internet bitrate would be considerably lower. Only 48kbps AAC. And it uses SBR.  In contrast, the DAB+ broadcast is at around 110kbps (actual) AAC, and does not use SBR.  

 

Presumably the ABC has decided it does not have the budget to stream ABC Classic at high quality.

 

On 03/02/2023 at 3:32 PM, georgehifi said:

On 31/01/2023 at 11:25 AM, MLXXX said:

You get an artificial spray of treble with "s" sounds.

 

That's your system, I don't get that, it's as sweet as a nut, if down a little on detail compared to CD.

Cheers George

 

The HE-AAC v1 codec was developed so as to make the SBR blend in with the overall sound, such that it wouldn't be all that noticeable.

 

Over the last few years I have tried half a dozen different DAB+ standalone radios; and two DAB+ sticks with a variety of SDR software. For my ears, all of these sources have produced "sprays of treble", but with the higher bitrate services the SBR effects have not been nearly as noticeable.

Edited February 4, 2023 by MLXXX

[georgehifi]

11 hours ago, MLXXX said:

Yes the internet bitrate would be considerably lower. Only 48kbps.

Presumably the ABC has decided it does not have the budget to stream ABC Classic at high quality.

 

ABC Classic (Internet) is actually higher now at 96kbps now just shy of the (DAB+) 120kbps.

The Radio Paradise (internet) is still the best at 328kbps. 

https://www.stereonet.com/forums/topic/570449-dab/?do=findComment&comment=6134934 

 

 

 

Cheers George

 

[georgehifi]

11 hours ago, MLXXX said:

For my ears, all of these sources have produced "sprays of treble", but with the higher bitrate services the SBR effects have not been nearly as noticeable.

 

I've never had that with all 3 x transmission formats, (DAB+/INTERNET or FM) from the digital output, using the external MSB dac.

I only got HF spray when using the streamers own dac. And that's with speakers with very nice ribbon tweeters that show all HF problems.

 

Cheers George 

Edited February 4, 2023 by georgehifi

[MLXXX]

On 05/02/2023 at 7:57 AM, georgehifi said:

ABC Classic (Internet) is actually higher now at 96kbps now just shy of the (DAB+) 120kbps.

Unfortunately that 96kbps uses the mp3 codec, a much less efficient codec than AAC.  (Your picture shows the codec as  mp3.)

 

The artefacts with mp3 at 96kbps are different to the artefacts of AAC at 48kpbs.   Mp3 has a thinness. AAC at 48kbps has bursts of treble that can sound a bit unnatural.

 

On 05/02/2023 at 8:05 AM, georgehifi said:

I've never had that with all 3 x transmission formats, (DAB+/INTERNET or FM) from the digital output, using the external MSB dac.

Well you wouldn't get it from FM because the bitrate used to feed the ABC Classic FM transmitters around Australia is high and no SBR would be involved. And if you choose the internet mp3 stream you won't get it as mp3 doesn't use SBR.  With the internet you'd need to choose a low bitrate AAC stream to hear SBR effects.  (Mp3 is made available as a "legacy" codec for older devices.)

 

The pschoacoustic compression artefacts for mp3 or AAC (technically HE-AAC v1 for medium bitrate DAB+ services) will be present regardless of the DAC used to listen to the audio stream.   Some people find such artefacts annoying; others don't notice them at all.  A lot depends on the actual bitrate.

 

With AM radio the treble tapers off at a bit over 3kHz (with normal AM tuners), and yet many people find they can still enjoy pop music from their car radio tuned to AM.

Edited February 6, 2023 by MLXXX

[cafe67]

SBS chill permanently on in my car 

[Guest crankit]

32 minutes ago, cafe67 said:

SBS chill

 

My fave dab+ station 

World music

[betty boop]

1 hour ago, cafe67 said:

SBS chill permanently on in my car 

yep permanent on my car as well been listening to it for years ....prior to that was koffee and when that disappeared discovered sBs chill  

[cafe67]

11 minutes ago, betty boop said:

yep permanent on my car as well been listening to it for years ....prior to that was koffee and when that disappeared discovered sBs chill  

I used to flick between buddahits and sbs chill - but buddahits has gone crap 

[georgehifi]

 

 Just had a listen to what Roon, Naim, Lumin and Hegel have on their streamers, which they say is SuperStereo 24bit/96khz and free.

You guys have a listen tell me what you think especially the Jazz and Instrumental mixes. I found them very boosted in the upper frequencies, that I found it quite uncomfortable to listen to.

http://www.superstereo24bit.com/

 

Cheers George  

[aussievintage]

31 minutes ago, georgehifi said:

 

 Just had a listen to what Roon, Naim, Lumin and Hegel have on their streamers, which they say is SuperStereo 24bit/96khz and free.

You guys have a listen tell me what you think especially the Jazz and Instrumental mixes. I found them very boosted in the upper frequencies, that I found it quite uncomfortable to listen to.

http://www.superstereo24bit.com/

 

Cheers George  

 

Can't get it to stream for long enough to listen properly.  They must have a poor connection between them and me. (However I do not think it's me as I can watch youtube videos with no problems).

 

What I did hear sounded a bit pumped up and commercial to make it sound exciting.  That may get fatigueing longer term.

[georgehifi]

1 hour ago, aussievintage said:

Can't get it to stream for long enough to listen properly.

 

 

Gota have a super connection for that hi-rez stream, I got fiber to the house, gives me a ping of 6ms so it streams very nicely. Just doesn't sound too good to these ears.

 

Cheers George 

Edited February 6, 2023 by georgehifi

[a.dent]

1 hour ago, georgehifi said:

 

 Just had a listen to what Roon, Naim, Lumin and Hegel have on their streamers, which they say is SuperStereo 24bit/96khz and free.

You guys have a listen tell me what you think especially the Jazz and Instrumental mixes. I found them very boosted in the upper frequencies, that I found it quite uncomfortable to listen to.

http://www.superstereo24bit.com/

 

Cheers George  

Thanks for the heads up George. These stations could be an alternative to Radio Paradise.

As you say though, they may be EQd a bit to exaggerate the upper frequencies.

While the signal path says 96/24 it could easily be sourced from lossy mp3 or AAC files, which may explain the upper frequency sound.

 

[a.dent]

Yes. Further listening and there’s certainly something odd with the sound isn’t there?

[georgehifi]

47 minutes ago, a.dent said:

Yes. Further listening and there’s certainly something odd with the sound isn’t there?

 

Yeah, something not right with that top end, don't know why Roon/Naim/Lumin/Hegel are pushing it $$$$$$$ perhaps

And yes Radio Paradise Mellow mix in UHD flac kills it, richer/sweeter/ just as extended/more body and with big dynamics..

 

Then I put a CD on, and say why am I even bothering with that other stuff. Suddenly there twice the depth, and the sound stage placements reach to the outside the speakers also, not just between them, and only half way back. 

 

Cheers George

 

Edited February 6, 2023 by georgehifi

[georgehifi]

Just listening to the 24/96 SuperStereo 7 Jazz this time, and it sounds like the drummers "cymbal kit" is up front in the sound stage in front of everyone including the drummer and his drums, clean enough but weird sounding.  http://www.superstereo24bit.com/ 

 

Cheers George

Edited February 6, 2023 by georgehifi

[surprisetech]

On 29/01/2023 at 4:54 PM, davm said:

Another interesting thing I recall reading somewhere is that an ex-ABC engineer said the best quality digital streams can be found by accessing the ABC radio stations broadcast on the digital TV channels.

This was certainly my experience for ABC Jazz which I don't enjoy on DAB+ but feel is better on the digital TV broadcast.

 

That was my experience too.  After Mum & Dad went into care, I was spending every 2nd weekend at the house in Stawell for about 3 months getting everything sorted out for them.  Slim pickings on FM up there and no DAB+ at all.

 

No hifi in the house, but a set-top box (with CRT TV) gave me access to the digital TV radio stations.  I used to connect the set-top box audio outputs to my little Alesis powered monitors and enjoyed a great variety of material.  Mostly JJ & SBS Chill, but also Jazz, Classical & Country.  Used it for background music if I was working inside during the day but was also very happy with it for some serious listening in the evenings.

[georgehifi]

Did some more searching for 24bit/96khz Flac free streaming internet stations and found these on 

http://motherearthradio.de/

 

Mother Earth Klassik http://server9.streamserver24.com:18910/motherearth.klassik

 

Mother Earth Instrumental http://server9.streamserver24.com:18920/motherearth.instrumental

 

Mother Earth Radio http://server9.streamserver24.com:18900/motherearth

 

But!!

I'll cop some **** for saying it.

While very good, to me they still don't sound quite as good as ABC Classic DAB+ 120kbps ACC 

 

Cheers George

Edited February 7, 2023 by georgehifi

[MLXXX]

2 hours ago, georgehifi said:

But!!

I'll cop some **** for saying it.

While very good, to me they still don't sound quite as good as ABC Classic DAB+ 120kbps ACC 

 

Consider yourself copping some flak!!!  I've just checked out http://server9.streamserver24.com:18910/motherearth.klassik,  the FLAC 96kHz stream for Mother Earth Klassic. It sounded superb.

 

Even at a nominal 120bps AAC (about 109kbps after overheads), ABC Classic on DAB+ doesn't compare for me. It can't, as too much of the audio is discarded at that bitrate.  For example the sweetness of violin strings is compromised, for my hearing.   Typical YouTube audio is better. It uses higher bitrates, and efficient codecs.

 

(I listened briefly to Mother Earth Radio. A vinyl disc was being played (notable clicks and pops), so a proper evaluation wasn't possible at the time.)

Edited February 7, 2023 by MLXXX

[georgehifi]

33 minutes ago, MLXXX said:

Consider yourself copping some flak!!!  I've just checked

 

Yep your right,  just listened again, but this time to Mozart Klavierkonzerte Nr. 20 Nr. 23, Daniel Barenboim (Klavier) and it's better, just what I compared with before favored the ABC Classic DAB+

And not one dropout either, got plenty with SuperStereo though and it's the same 24/96, go figure. 

Cheers George

[wasabijim]

what was the jazz (mainly) hi res station out of Greece? Audiofile jazz?? and a few sister stations. 

 

i used to listen to them at one stage a few years back but then my set-up struggled to find it at times or it would drop out, buffer all the time, etc. so i stopped trying. when we moved to a new place i tried but it wouldn't play so gave up figuring they'd shutdown, moved on or i was missing something 

[georgehifi]

@MLXXX

 

As good as the sound is at Mother Earth, for some reason all 3 mixes just don't do it for me like I get with Radio Paradise, especially it's mellow mix, which is very diverse, goes from eg: Floyd to CSNY, Krall, King Crimson, Jethro Tull to some very good obscure West Coast, type country. (not the ye-haw type)

It's like ones hifi and the others a "feeling", that get you toe tapping. Go figure, maybe it's the content being played

 

Cheers George

Edited February 8, 2023 by georgehifi

[MLXXX]

7 hours ago, georgehifi said:

Go figure, maybe it's the content being played

Yes, content is all important. Pristine audio quality cannot save a poor performance or make you like music that isn't to your taste.

 

Sampling some more of the Mother Earth 96kHz FLAC  "Klassik" stream today I noticed it was vinyl records being played. Generally, I'm not all that keen on vinyl sound.   Of course if the music is of real interest lesser quality can be tolerated. As an extreme example of that, I cherish certain 78rpm recordings of opera made in the early 20th century.

 

Back on topic, DAB+ sound quality varies a lot with the bitrate. I think some genres of music can run the gauntlet of a limited bitrate more successfully than others.  For example, some forms of jazz have bass and cymbals (a boom-tish effect) and strident instrumentation including sax and trumpet.  That sort of sound can be effective even without a really high bitrate.  It would be better with a higher bitrate of course but that is not how DAB+ has worked out in Australia...

[georgehifi]

1 hour ago, MLXXX said:

Sampling some more of the Mother Earth 96kHz FLAC  "Klassik" stream today I noticed it was vinyl records being played. Generally, I'm not all that keen on vinyl sound.

 

I listened to that also, and I remember vinyl clicks and pops not being that intrusive as what I heard via Mother Earth, almost sounded more like cd scratch error clicks to me.

 

Cheers George