Expectation Bias

[Zed Zed]

9 hours ago, Assisi said:

Hi Paul,

 

Why do I have to apologise for my posts?  I am only aware of one solitary poster who has put me on ignore.  My experiences are valid to me and I report accordingly.  I have difficulty with some of your posts but I accept them as valid for you.  I acknowledge that my perspective tends to be subjective.  I like to be careful though as to what I say otherwise the proverbial ton of bricks comes down on me from time to time.  I like everyone else have biases and I do not deny that.  I just listen.  I do not do tests or measurements.  I do not do anything that is supposedly blind or related.  Much too complicated.  I await @March Audio  explanations of how simple it is to do.

 

 

John, why do you so strongly resist the possibility that the people 'coming down on you like a ton of bricks' may actually know more than you do and are simply trying to help you save your money while at the same time helping you improve SQ?

 

I had a similar experience some time ago in an AV thread. The poster was extolling the virtues and benefits of a very expensive HDMI cable, saying how it significantly improved his picture quality. I am sure that the poster was sincere in describing the improvements that he saw, but from a science perspective, it was implausible (or even impossible) that objective improvements were made. Much more likely is that, having spent a lot of money on a 'magic' cable, the poster's cognitive biases were coming into play. My intervention was intended to alert people to this and to try to prevent other members from wasting a lot of money on an 'upgrade' that would make no difference at all.

 

I joined the discussion to point out that a digital signal is either good or bad. There is no 'in between', and if you see an image free of artefacts, then that is the best it will ever get, regardless of the price of the HDMI cable and its alleged 'magic' properties. Ones are ones, zeroes are zeroes. There are no numbers 'in between'. The only thing that is worth paying extra for with an HDMI cable is its mechanical construction, plug quality etc, but these cables can be had for just a few $, with no additional benefit from paying 10 times the price. As with your experience (but in reverse), the believers in 'magic cables' came down on me like a ton of bricks, despite the fact that I had science on my side. After a while, I left the discussion.

Edited March 7, 2023 by Zed Zed

[Addicted to music]

9 hours ago, March Audio said:

There are also many manufacturers who use their own design of buffers which have no input filtering.

.

lots of them around,  some even have filters that are not fit for purpose,  wrong values to define the role off on the HF.    Effective filters will have a ferrite beed in serious with the input that further acts as a Low pass filter to reduce HF sensitivity.  

 

 

9 hours ago, rocky500 said:

 

I also get something similar with another amp (class AB) if I use that one instead. It is RCA only. Mainly a buzz when plugged in Which I thought may be a ground loop?

 

This is the common problem you see in these forums,  the expected response is “ground loop” issues when in fact there is something worst that no one expects that usually bad design or involves component failure that rarely gets a mentioned.

[March Audio]

Thats mostly true, but you can cite real issues such as jitter in digital interfaces.  So digital transmission isn't always perfect.

 

Having said that there's very little these days that can cause any noticeable degradation.  It is also eminently measurable and solvable if it does.

Edited March 8, 2023 by March Audio

[rocky500]

14 hours ago, Addicted to music said:

This is the common problem you see in these forums,  the expected response is “ground loop” issues when in fact there is something worst that no one expects that usually bad design or involves component failure that rarely gets a mentioned.

I have had this amp for many years. It is one I have kept to compare others to.

It is only when plugged in a certain way to I get the hum/buzz.

It is a bit of a jungle behind my stereo and I plan to one day redo all the wiring.

I think it is at 60Hz as that showed up in one of my REW graphs a few years back. Found the graph, I think.

Seems a bit odd as thought it would be at 50Hz in Australia for a ground loop?

 

Edited March 8, 2023 by rocky500

[March Audio]

6 hours ago, rocky500 said:

I have had this amp for many years. It is one I have kept to compare others to.

It is only when plugged in a certain way to I get the hum/buzz.

It is a bit of a jungle behind my stereo and I plan to one day redo all the wiring.

I think it is at 60Hz as that showed up in one of my REW graphs a few years back. Found the graph, I think.

Seems a bit odd as thought it would be at 50Hz in Australia for a ground loop?

 

 

Thats a room mode not mains pick up.

 

For another thread, but happy to give some guidance on room acoustics

Edited March 8, 2023 by March Audio

[vivianbl]

On 4/3/2023 at 1:25 AM, Zed Zed said:

…. Nowadays, I almost never change anything.* When I do, I do it with extreme caution, and will spend months of listening before coming to a conclusion. I have a test I use: when I am in a listening session, do I find it very hard to stop. Is there always 'just one more track' that I want to hear? Does a quick session go on for hours longer than I expected? If so, then I am enjoying the music. So what's to change?

 

*One exception. I recently discovered tube amplification after decades of SS. Being a 100% tube virgin, I did make some mistakes, go down some wrong paths at first. This did cause quite a few changes. But since I have found I am saying "just one more track" very, very often, I haven't changed a thing, and don't intend to.

This comment in a post earlier in the thread really heartened me.

 

I, too, do the same in an extended listening sessions in my acoustic environment to make any judgement of change minor or major - how does the music reproduction impact on me- and the one more track becomes a few more.. Sometimes it could be coincidental factors. However, Extended listening over different days helps to, perhaps, reduce possible coincidental factors. 
 

As an another coincidence, I too was a SS user for decades, before a gradual change to using valve amplification in my main listening system. “Gradual” perhaps because my bias was that SS was, inherently, more “accurate”. I know valve measurements show more distortion ….etc,  

 

…oops,  I don’t want to start up SS vs valve

argument.  Just take as personal story.

[Zed Zed]

4 hours ago, vivianbl said:

This comment in a post earlier in the thread really heartened me.

 

I, too, do the same in an extended listening sessions in my acoustic environment to make any judgement of change minor or major - how does the music reproduction impact on me- and the one more track becomes a few more.. Sometimes it could be coincidental factors. However, Extended listening over different days helps to, perhaps, reduce possible coincidental factors. 
 

As an another coincidence, I too was a SS user for decades, before a gradual change to using valve amplification in my main listening system. “Gradual” perhaps because my bias was that SS was, inherently, more “accurate”. I know valve measurements show more distortion ….etc,  

 

…oops,  I don’t want to start up SS vs valve

argument.  Just take as personal story.

 

I'm a recent convert to valves after many years of using SS amps, and more recently Class A SS amps. I do believe that SS amps are more accurate to the source and for many, are a better choice than valve. But for the kind of music I listen to most (acoustic, jazz combo, vocals) I am finding that valves give me an experience that is more like the music I hear live. There's no point in debating this endlessly, I agree, because it is purely a preference issue. I know that my current tube amp is not 'accurate' but I gave up chasing accuracy a long time ago. 'Accurate' to what? To the original live content?  Well, that ain't likely to happen, and I have no idea what that sounded like anyway (unless I was there, and even then . . . ). Accurate to the studio sound? Well, that has probably been EQ'd, manipulated, compressed etc. Accurate to the input source? Well, at least that is easily measured.

 

But really, what I am after these days is a good, engaging sound that, to me, sounds like real music played live. I'm not worried if it is not 100% 'accurate' so long as it sounds like how I remember real music, played live. If I listened to big studio productions like Zeppelin etc it might be different, but I mostly listen to jazz groups and vocalists performing either live or in small studio setups. To this end, I am finding tube amplification is giving me what I am looking for.

 

I especially love my current setup for the reproduction of piano music. I hear live piano almost every day, so I am very familiar with what a piano sounds like. My current setup sounds uncannily like a real piano is playing in the room. This is no mean feat, as anyone who regularly listens to a good piano, played well, will testify. I enjoy all the jazz piano greats, from Tatum through to Monk and everyone else too, and it is a real pleasure to invite them into my home whenever I wish.

[The Mad Scientist]

11 hours ago, vivianbl said:

...oops,  I don’t want to start up SS vs valve

argument.  Just take as personal story.

 

No need to argue. Horses for courses. My fixed rigs are SS. My bedroom/holiday listening headphone rig is an ECL83 amp with a Khadas Tone Board built into it. Use it with an RPi Roon endpoint at home and with an Android phone/tablet with Roon ARC on holiday.

 

Compared to my Benchmark HPA4 (livingroom) and Topping L50 (office), it doesn't sound in the least bit tubey.

[March Audio]

19 hours ago, Zed Zed said:

There's no point in debating this endlessly, I agree, because it is purely a preference issue

Indeed.  There is a misconception that "objective types" are anti tube or only  seek accuracy or aren't interested in the same end goals as others.

 

There are simple technical reasons why tube amps sound different to SS, but which best suits your speakers or tastes is another question.

Edited March 9, 2023 by March Audio

[Assisi]

13 hours ago, Zed Zed said:

But really, what I am after these days is a good, engaging sound that, to me, sounds like real music played live

You have a conundrum or face a dilemma.  In a post a couple of days ago you pose an interesting question?

 

 

“John, why do you so strongly resist the possibility that the people 'coming down on you like a ton of bricks' may actually know more than you do and are simply trying to help you save your money while at the same time helping you improve SQ?”

I have drafted a response but have not posted it yet as I am still considering the matter.  Much to consider

 

 

In the post about engaging sound post above you seem to have an important expectation to aspire to something better or different to the SQ that you currently achieve with your system.  I am not sure which.

 

 

You have several decisions to make.  It is up to you to find a source(s) of the best reliable advice as to the why and the what that could be done to achieve the outcome that you aspire to.  Then you need to decide how to implement your decisions.  Finally, and absolutely what you can afford?  It is not at all about saving money.  Quality and excellence have a definite cost factor. 

 

John

Edited March 9, 2023 by Assisi

[rocky500]

On 07/03/2023 at 8:38 PM, Zed Zed said:

 

John, why do you so strongly resist the possibility that the people 'coming down on you like a ton of bricks' may actually know more than you do and are simply trying to help you save your money while at the same time helping you improve SQ?

 

 

That is a bit of a loaded question right there.

I know on ASR there are tons of people that know a lot more than me about the electronics.

But would I listen to them when it comes to preferences, no I don't think most have it right for what I am after. Not in my testing here at my place.

I would think sometimes the home audiophile can clock up an enormous amount of hours listening that can sometimes put him ahead of the pack in what he/she likes.

 

Just like Bruno Putzeys knows a lot about the electronics (dose not seem to be disputed) and noticed the so called "experts" bagged him totally when he deviated to preferences.

Designing products great!! But when it comes to preferences, they are just like everyone else. Have their opinions, bias's etc that come with it.

 

Am example is Amplifiers, Dacs, Cables, Regenerators, power filtering (you name it), there are a lot of "experts" who will swear black and blue there is no benefit to any of them. NIL.

 

 

Edited March 9, 2023 by rocky500

[buddyev]

This thread has run its course. Thank you and goodnight.