Damping Factor

[georgehifi]

10 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

It isn't about low dam,ping factors being superior.

 

It is about high damping factors not offering any inherent benefit. 

sorta what I was saying back here 

https://www.stereonet.com/forums/topic/574895-damping-factor/?do=findComment&comment=6160053

 

Edited March 16, 2023 by georgehifi

[Addicted to music]

8 hours ago, The Mad Scientist said:

There are quite a few good articles on Benchmark's website. Mostly no-nonsense and based on solid science and engineering.

Off topic but worth a look,  on that site they also market cables.    Not Audiophile expensive either but with some sound features.   It’s the 1st time I’ve encountered an IEC plug that has a Locking mechanism.   While many manufacturers are introducing a bracket to secure the IEC plug, this one that’s  only $22 has a lock so it doesn’t fall out,  an absolute bonus and reduces fire hazards on high current drawing products.

 

[The Mad Scientist]

32 minutes ago, Addicted to music said:

Off topic but worth a look,  on that site they also market cables.    Not Audiophile expensive either but with some sound features.   It’s the 1st time I’ve encountered an IEC plug that has a Locking mechanism.   While many manufacturers are introducing a bracket to secure the IEC plug, this one that’s  only $22 has a lock so it doesn’t fall out,  an absolute bonus and reduces fire hazards on high current drawing products.

 

Benchmark are no-nonsense when it comes to cables as well. Sound engineering, performance based and no snake-oil.

 

Their locking IECs are great, but US rated so the IEC plugs only have certification for 120V. That said, the construction and cable is no different to that used anywhere else in the world. Most of my gear came without the locking cables, though one came with both the locking (120V) US plugged version and non-locking (240V) UK plugged version. I cut off the US plug, fitted a UK plug and subjected it to a 1000V insulation resistance test, which it (naturally) passed with flying colours. It's now in use on my DAC3 HGC.

 

For anyone who's really worried about it, there are other locking IEC cables available from some of the major professional electrical distributors, e.g. this 10 Amp rated one:

 

https://www.canford.co.uk/Products/22588/42-3201_IEC-LOCK-AC-MAINS-POWER-CORDSET-IEC-Lock-C13-female-IEC-C14-male-0.5-metre-black

 

 

 

[Hydrology]

16 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

An audiophiles inherent understaning of damping factor boils down "it should be high (or higher) to provide control for the cone".   It's as much nonsense today (on todays speakers) as it was 70 years ago.

 

You speak on behalf of all audiophiles now, wow.

I don't think anyone in this thread is saying that a high damping factor is better than a low one. The point of the thread was to get an understanding of what/why/if damping factor played a critical part of the lack of synergy heard with Amp A and Speaker B.

I think we can all agree that there is plenty of marketing bullcrap in the audio industry and time after time after time it needs to be spelled out to end users to use the best tools for the job - their ears. It wasn't that long ago that PSAudio's Paul MacGowan was extolling the virtues of how an expensive (his) amplifier can make every speaker sound the same and perform to a high level - I wonder does he spout that now he has $50,000 speakers in his portfolio?

 

Edited March 17, 2023 by Hydrology

[davewantsmoore]

1 hour ago, Hydrology said:

You speak on behalf of all audiophiles now, wow.

No, come on, you know what I mean. 

Many audio people (and even quite a number of manufacturers) often say what I said they say about damping factor.   There's an endless trove of forum posts, "what is damping factor" articles, and marketing department blurbs.... to confirm this.

 

1 hour ago, Hydrology said:

I don't think anyone in this thread is saying that a high damping factor is better than a low one.

 

Post 3 (or whaetver) said that.... and that is the post I responded to.

 

Quote

 

A high damping factor means that the amplifier has more control over the speaker cones, especially with woofers or subs because those are high mass drivers which require a bit of power to overcome its inertia and momentum. A

 

 

1 hour ago, Hydrology said:

The point of the thread was to get an understanding of what/why/if damping factor played a critical part of the lack of synergy heard with Amp A and Speaker B.

Sure.

My point was it (high DF) offers no inherent benefit.... only (if anything) a change in frequency response, and a change in settling time in the (rare-ish) event that a signal stops (very very) quickly.

 

1 hour ago, Hydrology said:

I think we can all agree that there is plenty of marketing bullcrap in the audio industry and time after time after time it needs to be spelled out to end users to use the best tools for the job - their ears.

Yes.   Your ears will tell you what you like most, for sure.

 

... but they won't tell you how damping factor works or what to expect.    Lowering (or raising) the damping factor might make the speaker have a response which is not as designed, and might sound worse.....  but that expereince should not be used to confer a "thesis" on damping factor, for example "high damping factor is necessary for good sound" .... or "raising the damping factor provides more 'control' to the woofer" .... or many such other things which are unfortunately common consensus.

 

1 hour ago, Hydrology said:

Paul MacGowan

heh

Edited March 17, 2023 by davewantsmoore

[davewantsmoore]

16 hours ago, March Audio said:

You objected to the terms used implying that damping doesn't control driver motion.  It does, and your paper supports that.

No, I didn't.... and I'd really hope that if you read my posts, you would understand precicely what I'm trying to say.

 

I objected to:  "higher damping factors provide higher amounts of control" ..... as it leads right into the axiom that more damping factor => more control => higher performance.... and this is a bad takeaway.

 

16 hours ago, March Audio said:

Actually, in the case of traditional amps and speakers a low output impedance will provide a flatter frequency response.

Sure... in the end, while speaker designers can play around with "damping factor" .....  it is important (for most people) to use the "right" amount of damping factor to get the response that was intended.

 

16 hours ago, March Audio said:

Just see what high output impedance tube amps do to frequency response. (Black trace)

Sure.... that's right.... but we are lurching away from what I specifically objected to.    Posting what you've posted here doesn't in any way diminish (or counter) the point I was making.

 

16 hours ago, March Audio said:

And you are worried about sub optimal damping factor?

Again, this isn't what I said.... which is just the myth that  "more damping factor -> more control", is very common and corrupts peoples understanding of what is really happning.    Obviously at the end of the day, a flat frequency response resulting from a sane electromechanical system is what is important, and you can get that in a number of ways.

 

16 hours ago, March Audio said:

Your arguments are valid, but only in the context of active (dsp) speakers with current drive amps, which by definition have to be an integrated design.

Then you've probably misunderstood what I'm saying.

 

I'm simply saying that if a speaker (for example) was happy (flat frequency response, etc.) being driven by an amplfiier that results in DF=20 ..... then moving to an amplifier that resulting in DF=100, or DF=1000, etc..... is of no use.   There will be no "oohhh, the bass is better", or anything else.     That is, assuming the frequency response is the same with those other amps.

 

16 hours ago, March Audio said:

With the passive speakers most people have

You said "ohhh dave you're trying to take this to current drive" .... and I said, "no I'm not".   Why are you even saying all of this?!   

[March Audio]

1 hour ago, Hydrology said:

there is plenty of marketing bullcrap in the audio industry and time after time after time it needs to be spelled out to end users to use the best tools for the job - their ears.

 

Ears which are often misleading.  but lets not turn this thread into that debate.

 

1 hour ago, Hydrology said:

You speak on behalf of all audiophiles now, wow.

 

I dont think Dave was doing that.  He has a valid point, and audiophiles dont understand the wider picture behind damping factor - isnt that the point of this thread?

 

23 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

My point was it (high DF) offers no inherent benefit.... only (if anything) a change in frequency response, and a change in settling time in the (rare-ish) event that a signal stops (very very) quickly.

 

DF is essentially the inverse of amp output impedance. One is the other and cant be separated.  As discussed, low output impedances do offer benefit.  "Only" a change in frequency response?  Well as seen above, this change in frequency response can be significant. So a low output impedance, and therefore high damping factor is a beneficial thing.

 

23 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

.. but they won't tell you how damping factor works or what to expect.    Lowering (or raising) the damping factor might make the speaker have a reason which is not as designed, and might sound worse.....  but that expereince should be used to confer a "thesis" on damping factor, for example "high damping factor is necessary for good sound" .... or "raising the damping factor provides more 'control' to the woofer" .... or many such other things which are unfortunately common consensus.

 

Speaking generally, without understanding of the mechanisms people are just poking around in the dark.   Indeed, more doesnt necessarily equal better.

 

Edited March 17, 2023 by March Audio

[March Audio]

1 hour ago, davewantsmoore said:

"more damping factor -> more control", is very common and corrupts peoples understanding of what is really happning. 

OK

 

1 hour ago, davewantsmoore said:

I'm simply saying that if a speaker (for example) was happy (flat frequency response, etc.) being driven by an amplfiier that results in DF=20 ..... then moving to an amplifier that resulting in DF=100, or DF=1000, etc..... is of no use. 

 

In essence yes, and we agree on that (without being specific about the numbers)

 

1 hour ago, davewantsmoore said:

You said "ohhh dave you're trying to take this to current drive" .... and I said, "no I'm not".   Why are you even saying all of this?!   

 

Because its the logical conclusion of the train of thought and discussed before.

 

However, optimising DF is not an option for passive speakers without integrated amplification.  So, with the real-world situation it is better to have a lower output impedance and therefore higher damping factor, notwithstanding the diminishing returns.  However, yes, the reason isnt necessarily to do with damping.

Edited March 17, 2023 by March Audio

[Hydrology]

1 hour ago, March Audio said:

 

Ears which are often misleading.  but lets not turn this thread into that debate.

 

You're right, lets not, but I cant ignore this comment, as it is one of the most absurd things I've ever read on an audio forum.

 

Audio enthusiasts "should" be buying products based on auditioning, not specs, or at least, not specs alone. Everybody hears differently and everybody has different hearing capability based on their age, background etc. And then there are musical genres. I don't care if a product measures 100% and can be proven to me, unequivocally, that it is best in class and that anything I don't like about it is a flaw with me, not the product, if I don't like what I'm hearing, I move on quickly. But there was a time when I would've seeked out and bought products purely based on specs (that's my electronics engineering background at play). I am so glad I moved away from that thought process making decisions for me - I would never have enjoyed my hi-fi journey if I didn't.

 

Let me ask you a question Alan - if somebody listens to your March Audio speakers and doesn't like them, do you just accept it or do you consider them (the listener) to be clueless, flawed and unworthy to own them because of their "misleading ears"?

 

I really wonder if some of the more outspoken members in this thread actually even enjoy music. My sense of being, my mood, my emotions, my life are guided by music. Whether music was gifted to us by a higher being or an incredible part of our evolution, I never understand the constant bickering amongst you lot to outsmart, outspeak and just downright argue. I'm genuinely asking, where is your sense of enjoyment of this beautiful gift???

Edited March 17, 2023 by Hydrology

[Cloth Ears]

4 minutes ago, Hydrology said:

You're right, lets not, but I cant ignore this comment, as it is one of the most absurd things I've ever read on an audio forum.

 

Audio enthusiasts "should" be buying products based on auditioning, not specs, or at least, not specs alone. Everybody hears differently and everybody has different hearing capability based on their age, background etc. And then there are musical genres. I don't care if a product measures 100% and can be proven to me, unequivocally, that it is best in class and that anything I don't like about it is a flaw with me, not the product, if I don't like what I'm hearing, I move on quickly. But there was a time when I would've seeked out and bought products purely based on specs (that's my electronics engineering background at play). I am so glad I moved away from that thought process making decisions for me - I would never have enjoyed my hi-fi journey if I didn't.

 

Let me ask you a question Alan - if somebody listens to your March Audio speakers and doesn't like them, do you just accept it or do you consider them (the listener) to be clueless, flawed and unworthy to own them because of their "misleading ears"?

 

I really wonder if some of the more outspoken members in this thread actually even enjoy music. My sense of being, my mood, my emotions, my life are guided by music. Whether music was gifted to us by a higher being or an incredible part of our evolution, I never understand the constant bickering amongst you lot to outsmart, outspeak and just downright argue. I'm genuinely asking, where is your sense of enjoyment???

The OP was asking a technical question, which cannot be answered with your ears, misleading or otherwise.

You can determine what you prefer to listen to with your ears, of course, however misled they may be.

[Hydrology]

9 minutes ago, Cloth Ears said:

The OP was asking a technical question, which cannot be answered with your ears, misleading or otherwise.

 

You are correct, but my comment was not about damping factor, it was a broader comment about marketing hyperbole.

[georgehifi]

20 minutes ago, Hydrology said:

Audio enthusiasts "should" be buying products based on auditioning, not specs

 

Should really be both, first good specs then listened to, and make a decision on which of the good spec ones you listen to you prefer. As if you buy one with bad spec/s eventually it will bite you in the **** later on when the system need that bad spec/s to be good ones. 

  

Bad spec/s can never make for a good uncolored/distortion less sound 

 

Cheers George 

 

 

 

Edited March 17, 2023 by georgehifi

[March Audio]

Hey everyone, it was not my intention to send the thread down this route.  Lets just keep it on damping factor.

[Hydrology]

10 minutes ago, georgehifi said:

 

Should really be both, first good specs then listened to, and make a decision on which of the good spec ones you listen to you prefer. As if you buy one with bad spec/s eventually it will bite you in the **** later on when the system need that bad spec/s to be good ones. 

  

Bad spec/s can never make for a good uncolored/distortion less sound 

 

Cheers George 

 

 

 

If Audio Science Review was to be believed, anything over $100 measures terribly and therefore has bad specs.

I'll all for educating a potential client in the nature of system synergy and the importance of all the pieces of the puzzle fitting 1000%, but if a client or a newbie listened to half the people in this thread alone they would never buy audio and consider it probably easier to learn how to do open heart surgery.

Edited March 17, 2023 by Hydrology

[muon*]

There was a guy that posted here a while back that stated he bought a DAC based on the recommendation from ASR, measured extraordinarily well.

 

He hated it.

[rantan]

49 minutes ago, March Audio said:

Hey everyone, it was not my intention to send the thread down this route.  Lets just keep it on damping factor.

 

Thanks @March Audio.

While I am here, may I ask why different amplifier manufacturers design an amplifier with a high or low DF?

 To aid my understanding, what is the designer of amplifier "A", with a DF of 1000 trying to achieve over the designer of another amplifier "B" which has a DF of 200?

 

I really like how this thread has progressed and has clarified much ( but not all ) of which was previously unclear, so any and all responses are really appreciated still.

[March Audio]

29 minutes ago, rantan said:

 

Thanks @March Audio.

While I am here, may I ask why different amplifier manufacturers design an amplifier with a high or low DF?

 To aid my understanding, what is the designer of amplifier "A", with a DF of 1000 trying to achieve over the designer of another amplifier "B" which has a DF of 200?

 

I really like how this thread has progressed and has clarified much ( but not all ) of which was previously unclear, so any and all responses are really appreciated still.

 

A DF value may not be a specific design parameter, or a particular number aimed for.  Often the value is just a consequence of other design priorities, or simply a consequence of the topology.

 

For example, class d generally has extremely high damping factor.  However this is simply a consequence of the topology which provides vanishingly low output impedance.  In the other direction tube amps tend to have high output impedance which leads to a much lower DF.  Again, a result of the topology.

 

I would say that designers generally don't consider DF too much.  They will (should) consider the effects of output impedance, which as explained above can considerably affect the real world frequency response.

 

DF will never be optimised with traditional voltage source amps and random passive speakers, so due to the benefits of low output impedance, it will be the deciding factor.   Low output impedance equals high damping factor.

Edited March 17, 2023 by March Audio

[The Mad Scientist]

18 hours ago, Hydrology said:

If Audio Science Review was to be believed, anything over $100 measures terribly and therefore has bad specs.

I think that's a little unfair. The best measuring DAC to date is the Mola Mola Tambaqui, AUD 18,450. Best measuring power amp is still the Benchmark AHB2, AUD 6,699.

 

ASR's take on things is that you can achieve excellent measured performance without spending a lot of money and also that you can spend a lot of money and achieve really bad performance. There's a happy medium somewhere between the two.

 

Measured performance isn't everything, but at least it indicates that a component is competently designed and that it won't artificially colour the sound.

 

What ASR is very good at IMO, is calling out snake-oil and debunking some of the myths in our hobby.

Edited March 17, 2023 by The Mad Scientist

[georgehifi]

7 minutes ago, The Mad Scientist said:

I think that's a little unfair.

Hydrology said that not me, can you edit it so it doesn't look like I said it.

Thanks George

[Hydrology]

17 minutes ago, The Mad Scientist said:

What ASR is very good at IMO, is calling out snake-oil and debunking some of the myths in our hobby.

 

 

Yes there are times when this is true.

[davewantsmoore]

On 17/03/2023 at 2:28 PM, March Audio said:

However, optimising DF is not an option for passive speakers without integrated amplification.

If what you are saying is that significantly adjusting the damping factor on most passive speakers (which have significant swings in the electrical impedance) would be bad for them .... then sure.

 

But also, this is a passive speaker

 

 

.... and you can vary the "damping factor" to essentially anything.

 

On 17/03/2023 at 2:28 PM, March Audio said:

  So, with the real-world situation it is better to have a lower output impedance and therefore higher damping factor, notwithstanding the diminishing returns.  However, yes, the reason isnt necessarily to do with damping.

Sure.

It is better to not vary the damping factor away from ones which the speaker designer expected.....   but that says absolutely nothing about what damping factor might be optimal if beginning from a blank slate.

 

.... but certainly there is no "higher is better" rule ('cos "more control"), like many many people believe their is.    Many speakers expect a damping factor which is "not small" (ie. 5 is as good as 50, or 500) ... but that is all.

 

[davewantsmoore]

On 17/03/2023 at 4:56 PM, March Audio said:

I would say that designers generally don't consider DF too much.

Yes.   I think it is more to do with the marketing department.    <cue movie trailer voice-over voice>   "this amplifier has rock solid control over the speaker"

 

 

[MLXXX]

2 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

... but certainly there is no "higher is better" rule ('cos "more control"), like many many people believe their is.

There would be people still following that philosophy, that was to the forefront in the early 1960s.

 

In the 1960s and 70s, the emergence of semiconductor based audio power amps using complementary output pairs (PNP and NPN)  rather than an audio output transformer provided a neat solution to the issue of variable bass performance. The new solid-state amps usually had damping factor to spare, so you no longer needed to worry about your speakers sounding materially different at the low end just because they were hooked up to a different amplifier.

 

And valve audio power amplifiers with appropriate design (including -ve feedback) and appropriate output transformers, could attain pretty high damping factors too, also side-stepping the variable bass response issue.

 

So what we have an example of here is outdated audiophile lore. It used to be desirable to chase higher damping factors, but technological advances have allowed manufacturers to achieve high enough damping factors routinely. Damping factor is no longer an issue of concern.

[March Audio]

1 hour ago, davewantsmoore said:

Sure.

It is better to not vary the damping factor away from ones which the speaker designer expected.....

 

The vast majority of amplifiers are SS, so damping factor will be high (low output impedance).

 

Any typical speaker designer therefore would design for that case.

 

As discussed, every amps DF/output impedandance is different.  As such a speaker designer would have no basis to design for a specific DF, unless they were going to say "you should only use it with amplifier X".

Edited March 19, 2023 by March Audio

[March Audio]

40 minutes ago, MLXXX said:

So what we have an example of here is outdated audiophile lore. It used to be desirable to chase higher damping factors, but technological advances have allowed manufacturers to achieve high enough damping factors routinely. Damping factor is no longer an issue of concern.

 

Absolutely.

Edited March 19, 2023 by March Audio