Speaker cable

[Mendes]

7 hours ago, Misternavi said:

(the Canare 4S11 is very good.)

100% 

[stereo coffee]

15 minutes ago, Mendes said:

100% 

Context missing though, to ascertain why. 

 

 

[GIEGAR]

 

On 14/05/2023 at 4:13 PM, rantan said:

No offence, but I really could live without you being patronising.

You should’ve thought about that before having a couple of sarcastic swipes at what I posted.  I responded in kind.

 

On 14/05/2023 at 4:13 PM, rantan said:

Let's just agree to differ ( strongly ) yeah?

That (differing) could've been done by simply giving the OP your own recommendation.

 

On 14/05/2023 at 6:51 PM, stereo coffee said:

This thread similarly discussing cables arrives at some nice results, and does not have so much leaning toward brand names and endless comparison., Rather gets into the real business of cables, and allows any of us to build  a pair.

Thanks Chris, interesting read.  Must admit though, that I struggle to understand the relevance to the bit of my post you quoted.

 

On 14/05/2023 at 10:24 PM, andyr said:

Absoloootely true, GG!  

 

But the signal does react to whether the wire is stranded or solid-core ... and to what the dielectric is.

At frequencies below the GHz range, the only differences between stranded and solid core are mechanical, primarily stranded being more flexible.  In other words, they behave the same at audio frequencies.

 

Dielectrics?  My understanding is relative permittivity - the material constant that along with a capacitor’s shape gives the capacitance of an insulator - changes with voltage across it in some dielectric materials. The change is very small though, and since the capacitance of the cable plays a negligible role anyway (DC resistance dominates), any minuscule change is insignificant.

 

On 14/05/2023 at 10:24 PM, andyr said:

Mine look merely ... neat.    I take consolation from how they sound. 

Excellent! 

[andyr]

2 hours ago, GIEGAR said:

 

At frequencies below the GHz range, the only differences between stranded and solid core are mechanical, primarily stranded being more flexible.  In other words, they behave the same at audio frequencies.

 

 

I presume you really mean by that ... they measure the same, at audio frequencies?

 

Because they certainly don't sound the same.  

 

[rantan]

1 minute ago, andyr said:

Because they certainly don't sound the same. 

 

Amen.

[Grizaudio]

3 hours ago, andyr said:

 

I presume you really mean by that ... they measure the same, at audio frequencies?

 

Because they certainly don't sound the same.  

 

@andyr What is your recommendation for solid core speaker cable at circa 2.5-3m long? 

 

[andyr]

1 hour ago, Grizaudio said:

@andyr What is your recommendation for solid core speaker cable at circa 2.5-3m long? 

 

I will PM you, tomorrow, Griz.

 

[HdB]

Have a look on the Belden site about the very many different types of cables plus the explanations about why they're different - it's a real 'eye-opener' about cables and their applications  in various situations. 

 

It's why some very good quality cables sound fantastic in some systems but 'not-so-good' in others - no real news here, sorry

[MattyW]

FoilFlex…. By far and away the best I’ve tried

[Grizaudio]

I've always wondered if foil speaker cable is made from hearing loop tape. 

Would be interesting to DIY some and try. 

Picture from Ampertronic website....

 

 

For those inclined to read on the topic..... Here is a interesting opinion/test from Nelson Pass. 

https://www.passlabs.com/technical_article/speaker-cables-science-or-snake-oil/

https://diyaudioprojects.com/Technical/Papers/Speaker-Cables-Science-or-Snake-Oil-Nelson-Pass.pdf

 

 

Edited May 20, 2023 by Grizaudio

[SonicArt]

Haven't enjoyed the sound of flat ribbon conductors myself, yes they are detailed and good quality ones have a nice staging of instruments etc, but they seem to lack natural timing, the music is off to my body clock. Others have experienced this in the same demo rooms as I have including the editor of Audiophile magazine in Asia, in fact I was asked what I thought was the problem that was niggling at the editor, I looked over the system, listened to it, then suggested swapping speaker cables out, the result was natural rhythm, timing was back, it was noticed straight away by those in the room.

 

I am not telling this story to start arguments,  simply my experience and that of those around me at the time who noticed the same changes.

[MattyW]

I’d say foil cables are the same as anything else. There are good and bad examples. 

Edited May 20, 2023 by MattyW

[muon*]

5 hours ago, Grizaudio said:

I've always wondered if foil speaker cable is made from hearing loop tape. 

Would be interesting to DIY some and try. 

Picture from Ampertronic website....

 

 

For those inclined to read on the topic..... Here is a interesting opinion/test from Nelson Pass. 

https://www.passlabs.com/technical_article/speaker-cables-science-or-snake-oil/

https://diyaudioprojects.com/Technical/Papers/Speaker-Cables-Science-or-Snake-Oil-Nelson-Pass.pdf

 

 

Only hearing loop tape I can find is only 18mm wide x .1mm thick

[Grizaudio]

17 minutes ago, muon* said:

Only hearing loop tape I can find is only 18mm wide x .1mm thick

this one comes in three widths 

https://www.freewaysecurity.com.au/100m-roll-of-flat-copper-hearing-loop-tape

 

Are you going to give it a try?

12.5mm worth is the smallest. The 25mm width provides 2.5mm2 cable area.

Edited May 20, 2023 by Grizaudio

[muon*]

9 minutes ago, Grizaudio said:

this one comes in three widths 

https://www.freewaysecurity.com.au/100m-roll-of-flat-copper-hearing-loop-tape

 

Are you going to give it a try?

12.5mm worth is the smallest. The 25mm width provides 2.5mm2 cable area.

Probably not, as I have Mike's original RibbonTek cables and like them a lot.

 

Was just curious.

[andyr]

54 minutes ago, Grizaudio said:

12.5mm worth is the smallest. The 25mm width provides 2.5mm2 cable area.

 

That's just shy of 13g - so very appropriate.

 

I'm interested in Mark's post here:

 

5 hours ago, SonicArt said:

Haven't enjoyed the sound of flat ribbon conductors myself, yes they are detailed and good quality ones have a nice staging of instruments etc, but they seem to lack natural timing, the music is off to my body clock. Others have experienced this in the same demo rooms as I have including the editor of Audiophile magazine in Asia, in fact I was asked what I thought was the problem that was niggling at the editor, I looked over the system, listened to it, then suggested swapping speaker cables out, the result was natural rhythm, timing was back, it was noticed straight away by those in the room.

 

The late great Allen Wright, in his "Super Cable Cook Book" had a recipe for flat ribbon cables (can't remember whether they were ICs or spkrs cable) - which he regarded as great-sounding.

 

So - after reading his book, 25 years ago - I had a hankering to try some ... but never got around to it.  

 

Edited May 20, 2023 by andyr

[GIEGAR]

On 17/05/2023 at 5:14 PM, andyr said:

 

I presume you really mean by that ... they measure the same, at audio frequencies?

 

No, I meant what I said.  That’s fairly evident if you read the paragraph in context.

 

Primarily, fundamental physics shows us that the electrical phenomena [skin effect, eddy currents, quantum tunnelling (FFS!) etc] that warrant consideration of solid-core construction are irrelevant to the audible band.  They are relevant to the RF band, so are well understood.  None of these phenomena are happening inside wires carrying audio signals!

 

Recent suites of measurements of solid-core cables (speaker and interconnect) carried out with high resolution test equipment back up the physics.  I can provide links if you wish.

 

Extrapolating effects only evident in the RF band to the audible band is ridiculous and sellers of overpriced solid-core cables doing it (examples are Audioquest and Anticables) are simply dishonest.

 

On 17/05/2023 at 5:14 PM, andyr said:

 

Because they certainly don't sound the same.  

 

How you reconcile that apparent contradiction is up to you, but I suggest you haven’t effectively isolated other variables. 

[GIEGAR]

@Troyboyhifi  Have you decided on anything yet?

 

Lots of blokes turning up their noses at the $4.55/m “Bunnings cable” linked above.  I wonder how many actually clicked the link and looked at it before passing judgement?  The cable is Nexans Olex.  Nexans is a long established industrial cable manufacturer with a huge range of conductors in their portfolio, many of which are made in Lilydale.

 

Here’s the data sheet for the Olex JSF2.0CL1.  This is a solid product; ~15AWG OFC, DCR 0.0109 Ω/m.  Nobody will be able to provide a solid technical reason (anecdotes don’t count!) why more expensive cables will “sound better”.  Under $50 all up and spend the rest on good music &/or good beer. 

 

 

Edited May 21, 2023 by GIEGAR
Corrected DCR

[Grizaudio]

4 minutes ago, GIEGAR said:

@Troyboyhifi  Have you decided on anything yet?

 

Lots of blokes turning up their noses at the $4.55/m “Bunnings cable” linked above.  I wonder how many actually clicked the link and looked at it before passing judgement?  The cable is Nexans Olex.  Nexans is a long established industrial cable manufacturer with a huge range of conductors in their portfolio, many of which are made in Lilydale.

 

Here’s the data sheet for the Olex JSF2.0CL1.  This is a solid product; ~15AWG OFC, DCR 0.00109 Ω/m.  Nobody will be able to provide a solid technical reason (anecdotes don’t count!) why more expensive cables will “sound better”.  Under $50 all up and spend the rest on good music &/or good beer. 

 

 

 

I've run 1.5mm2 solid core (Twin active) lighting cable from bunnings, and my compression drivers didn't know the difference. Sounded fine IMHO.  

 

[muon*]

I began this audio journey using various stranded and solid core wire from bunnings, at the time I preferred .7mm diameter solid core copper.

 

Have gone through a few different cables now and considering what I get from my current ribbon cables performance wise, I could not go back to those original ones.

[bob_m_54]

9 hours ago, muon* said:

I began this audio journey using various stranded and solid core wire from bunnings, at the time I preferred .7mm diameter solid core copper.

 

Have gone through a few different cables now and considering what I get from my current ribbon cables performance wise, I could not go back to those original ones.

0.7mm dia is pretty light guage (21 AWG) for speaker cables. Not good for high power amps or long runs.

[muon*]

22 minutes ago, bob_m_54 said:

0.7mm dia is pretty light guage (21 AWG) for speaker cables. Not good for high power amps or long runs.

I don't have high powered amps or long runs.

 

Edit: If I had of, being solid core I'd of used twisted pairs of 20awg for individual runs.

Edited May 21, 2023 by muon*

[Grizaudio]

Mogami nominate W3082 as a better sounding cable to traditional helix solutions. 
 

Maybe something to consider if you are looking at similar Canare/Koltz helix solutions. 
 

I haven’t heard this cable myself. 
 

https://mogamicable.com/category/bulk/speaker_cable/pure_sound/

 

Has anyone used this cable? 

 

 

[andyr]

11 hours ago, Grizaudio said:

Mogami nominate W3082 as a better sounding cable to traditional helix solutions. 
 

Maybe something to consider if you are looking at similar Canare/Koltz helix solutions. 
 

I haven’t heard this cable myself. 
 

https://mogamicable.com/category/bulk/speaker_cable/pure_sound/

 

Has anyone used this cable? 

 

Again - stranded and PVC insulated.  

 

However, it being coax means that the two conductors are close together - so the cable's inductance will be low (which is a good thing) ... but not the lowest possible.

 

Edited May 21, 2023 by andyr

[gemini07]

I had this cable in my system a few years ago and thought it performed very well. The sound at that time had good balance and very good upper level emphasis. 

 

There are better cables around but none at that price range. Also, you can pay (a lot) more and get less. I recall another SNA member came over to offer me his very expensive Scandinavian cables (approx $2,000). After we compared both he went home and immediately ordered a pair of the Mogami.

 

Don't ask me how the cables themselves sound as I've found most are quite system dependent.