Speaker Power Vs Amplifier Power

[Mick64]

Hi.

 

I have a pair of yamaha NS-F777, which are rated at 250w at 6 ohms.

 

I am going to get a power amp that is roughly 600w at 6 ohms.

 

Is it worth the gamble?

 

Currently giving them 400 W of power and had no issues, already sound quite good and clear.

 

I am a big  believer of no risk no reward.

 

I do have tribularites cables for the speakers and xlr cables for the amp to my yamaha RX-A3000.

 

Let me know what you think

 

 

[Al.M]

It will be ok so long as you don’t turn volume up too much like past 60-70% but gauge the stress of speaker drivers as you go up.

[andyr]

5 minutes ago, Vanilla-Ice said:

Hi.

 

I have a pair of yamaha NS-F777, which are rated at 250w at 6 ohms.

 

Not quite!

 

See the specs which you provided:

 

5 minutes ago, Vanilla-Ice said:

 

 

They suggest the max power required would be 250w.  They also state their nominal impedance is 6 ohms - without specifying their minimum impedance.

 

It's the minimum impedance which might be an issue, for an amplifier.  Some amps are only rated into 8 ohms ... they can probably handle 6 - but may have a problem if the spkr impedance drops any lower.

 

You said this:

 

10 minutes ago, Vanilla-Ice said:

Currently giving them 400 W of power and had no issues, already sound quite good and clear.

 

What is your current amp - and do you know its performance into 4 ohms?  (I presume it's rated as 400w into 8 ohms?)

 

If it's rated as, say, 700+ watts into 4 ohms ... you may find that it drives your Yammies as well as they can be driven!

 

10 minutes ago, Vanilla-Ice said:

I do have tribularites cables for the speakers 

 

Not quite sure what these are???  

 

[TheBlackDisc]

Your 600 watt amp is very capable of delivering 250 watts - just don’t wind the volume too far.

[GregWormald]

600 isn't too much (unless you turn it WAY up) but 400 should be enough. It really depends on which amp you like better for the way it sounds at your common listening level.

 

400 'good' watts would beat 600 'poor' watts anytime.

[Mick64]

Thank you all for the great help that you have provided .

 

 

I am currently using a crown xli 1500 power amp. It provides 450 w at 4 Ohms, and at 6 its about 370w to be exact.

 

My RX-A3000 is at the 6 ohm impedence setting, sending that signal to the power amp - and the power amp is sending 6 ohms ( i have used an ohm meter for my findings)

 

A is the current amp, and B is the one up.  For amp B,  6 Ohms will be rated at 625 watts. Now i have mentioned 600 watts, because i have the gains on the amplifier always half way ( this would help with the sensitivity and reduce any risks of over driving speakers)

 

 

 

I have just purchased the crown xli 2500 amp on the information all above. Like as @GregWormald points out, it's all about being mindful of the volume. The beauty is more power is going to produce more volume at lower volumes - so for example if i previously was listening to Katy Perys song hot at cold at lets say 32db on the amp i currently have, i will surely achieve the same feel of volume and big sound at perhaps even 35db.

 

@TheBlackDisc I will be very careful of this, especially when i listen to music like vanilla ice, mc hammer and co.

 

@andyr That does make a lot of sense, being the impedance is the key focal point. The amp will deliver a signal at 6 ohms, and my speakers are 6 ohms, so its a perfect match. The question is power. The cable is the brand called Tributaries , they are underrated.  I find cables are heading into snake oil territory , but this cable has been a game changer - the series 4 ones. They are on sale at Selby at the moment,  if i was you, i would get them. 

 

@Al.M WilL be careful, but at the same time enjoy the music.  The jump in power will improve the sound, and that's what i value most and first mostly.

[Mendes]

42 minutes ago, GregWormald said:

400 'good' watts would beat 600 'poor' watts anytime.

Not all watts are created equal 

[andyr]

As @GregWormald and @Mendes have written: 

 

1 hour ago, GregWormald said:

400 'good' watts would beat 600 'poor' watts anytime.

 

I'm afraid I don't follow your logic, in your post above - but I guess as you've already gone ahead and bought the Crown xli 2500 ... that's academic!  

 

But just one thing re. what you said here:

 

47 minutes ago, Vanilla-Ice said:

That does make a lot of sense, being the impedance is the key focal point. The amp will deliver a signal at 6 ohms, and my speakers are 6 ohms, so it's a perfect match. The question is power. 

 

The fact that your amp will deliver a signal into a 6 ohm load - and your spkrs are 6 ohms ... is not necessarily a match made in heaven.

 

For instance, the figures you showed for the xli 2500:

• 500w into 8 ohms (both channels driven)
• 750w into 4 ohms (both channels driven)

... are not as good as an amp - like the Sanders Magtech - which is specced as follows:

• 500w into 8 ohms
• 900w into 4 ohms
• and stable into 2 ohms.

"Doubling into half the load" is the mark of a good amp - not just 50% more.  So - as you don't seem to know the impedance curve of your NS777s - if they actually do have an impedance down at 4 ohms for much of their range ... you may find the xli 2500 doesn't deliver much more than your xli 1500 did?

 

And if they don't dip below 6 ohms ... you may not notice much difference (from the extra power), either.

 

I also can't understand what you are saying here:

 

47 minutes ago, Vanilla-Ice said:

My RX-A3000 is at the 6 ohm impedence setting, sending that signal to the power amp - and the power amp is sending 6 ohms ( i have used an ohm meter for my findings)

 

Your RX-A3000 is a 7-channel AVR - you are presumably feeding your Crown Power amp from the "pre-out" sockets on the RX-A3000?

 

If so - the impedance setting on the RX-A3000 is irrelevant, when using pre-outs; it only comes into play when the RX-A3000 is driving spkrs.

 

Finally re. your recommendation for "Tributaries Series 4" spkr cables - I am very happy with the ones I make myself - as they:

• use solid-core wires, instead of stranded
• and use banana plugs like these:

 

Edited April 8, 2023 by andyr

[muon*]

1 hour ago, Vanilla-Ice said:

The beauty is more power is going to produce more volume at lower volumes

It takes a doubling of power to get an extra 3db in volume.

 

So in an apples to apples situation it would take a move from a 400 watt amp to an 800 watt amp to get an increase in volume at max power by 3db.

 

Edit: to me it seems like the only real benefit you are going to get is if the new amp is plain and simple a better sounding design/implementation.

 

Edited April 8, 2023 by muon*

[GregWormald]

Sometimes extra headroom in an amp can make a difference, especially if the lower powered amp is distorting on peaks.

 

Since Crown says that the two amps are identical except for power output, I'll be interested to see what the audible difference between them is for you.

 

[Addicted to music]

Id go for 500W @8ohms.  the more power the better!   

 

When you have this capability,  its a master/slave situation,  the speakers are asking how far it wants to move, the amps output saids this much and the more power, the better controlled the speakers are!   Anyone that's gone through this journey will agree regardless of speakers driven. 

[LogicprObe]

 

Yeah..........I use  a 300W per channel power amp on my Yamaha garage set.

 

Like these..............they are only rated @ 100W - 8 ohms.

 

 

You just got to know the limitations and recognise the speaker overload symptoms.

[Mick64]

@Addicted to music you have motivated me to get the more powerful amp that i am after, and i got it at an abosolute baragain - ebay coupon and display model  - price was much lower.

 

@LogicprObe love the speakers ! Yammy is the best way to go. Hopefully you have a super big garage, as the sound acoustics in the garage are amazing ( i used to have a man cave area ) . Too many spiders in the garage for me :D.

 

@GregWormald  Yes 100%. Same amp - just that next step of extra power. I hope it makes the difference i hope it can make -  just like giving a Ferrari an engine upgrade - so hopefully we see an improvement in bass, vocals, details and sound stage.

 

@andyr I did get the amp as you predicted  . It is a complex one, and i feel you have very good knowledge of power, the peaks, and how it can impact the speakers. More focusing on the impedance, and the power - because as you said we don't really know the curve of the peaks etc - so really we are rolling the dice and seeing if there are any improvements. I'll admit, i've never been so excited to find out the differences  - fingers crossed its a good difference. It could be a game breaker - but like as you say perhaps an alternative amp with more specific power output might of been a better match - like mixing bananas with peanut butter. I watched a video on PS audio on Youtube that did explain about amp power vs power amp power - it really does get complex. 

 

I want to thank everyone for your help, insights and advice. It's been super interesting. I will let you know how it all goes and if the improvements are noticeable. I wouldn't say i am an audio specialist, but my nickname at work is "golden ears" - and i've even done tests with blindfolds to notice differences between certain amps, speakers etc - it's a gift i feel. At the end of the day - everyone has an ability to notice improvement in sound and for me its about the perfect way and getting everything to sound as if i dreamed of it.

[ray4410]

your ears are the measuring tool which tell you if your amp or speakers are stressing,if it starts to sound distorted or you notice the bass drivers flying out of control back off the volume,you can play any amp with any speaker as long as you know both their limitations,treat them with respect and they will respect you.  

[andyr]

6 minutes ago, ray4410 said:

your ears are the measuring tool which tell you if your amp or speakers are stressing,if it starts to sound distorted or you notice the bass drivers flying out of control back off the volume

 

Agreed.  

 

6 minutes ago, ray4410 said:

,you can play any amp with any speaker as long as you know both their limitations, treat them with respect and they will respect you.  

 

I'm afraid I don't quite agree with you there, Ray ("any amp with any spkr")!

 

Try driving a pair of 3-way Maggies with a SET and I suggest you will blow the true-ribbon - even at a low volume level ... because the SET will be clipping.  

 

[ray4410]

2 minutes ago, andyr said:

 

Agreed.  

 

 

I'm afraid I don't quite agree with you there, Ray ("any amp with any spkr")!

 

Try driving a pair of 3-way Maggies with a SET and I suggest you will blow the true-ribbon - even at a low volume level ... because the SET will be clipping.  

 

yes andyr i was generalising on that point i guess having been there myself with electrostatics and under powered amp but to go into the perfect speaker amp combinations would need it's own section 

[colinm1]

i would rather a  hi powered  amp than a low powered amp to drive any speaker no matter the efficiency 

 

[andyr]

3 minutes ago, ray4410 said:

yes andyr i was generalising on that point i guess having been there myself with electrostatics and under powered amp but to go into the perfect speaker amp combinations would need it's own section 

 

All I was trying to suggest, Ray, was that you should've probably said "most amps with most spkrs" - rather than "any"!

 

[andyr]

1 minute ago, colinm1 said:

i would rather a  hi powered  amp than a low powered amp to drive any speaker no matter the efficiency 

 

Absoloootely!  

 

[davewantsmoore]

On 08/04/2023 at 1:18 PM, Vanilla-Ice said:

I have a pair of yamaha NS-F777, which are rated at 250w at 6 ohms.

I am going to get a power amp that is roughly 600w at 6 ohms.

Is it worth the gamble?

 

600w is not much more than 250w ... so it would be likely fine, even if you dumped all that power into the speaker.   In practise your ears would give up long before your speaker (unless you were a long long way from the speaker).

[stereo coffee]

On 08/04/2023 at 4:57 PM, Mendes said:

Not all watts are created equal 

Particularly when the input sensitivity does not match consumer line level. 

[Addicted to music]

12 hours ago, ray4410 said:

your ears are the measuring tool which tell you if your amp or speakers are stressing,if it starts to sound distorted or you notice the bass drivers flying out of control back off the volume,you can play any amp with any speaker as long as you know both their limitations,treat them with respect and they will respect you.  

 

I had 500W on a pair of Linn Kans original version.    recommendation on these would be 50W max.   At 500W they didn’t sound like bookshelf speakers,   the sound stage and the bass that was pushing out made you look twice.   Some transducers just come alive, its almost a Doctor jeckle and Mr Hyde situation  
Transducers like Magnaplanar just demand current and power.   For speakers that dip to below 1 ohms, also shows how stressed low powered is limited when you use something that’s a spot Welder.   Those who have done these experiments would know,   When you look under the hood of any high powered amp usually involve high voltage rails for large voltage swings,  huge transformers and reserves capacitors, multiple pairs not 2 pairs we are talking around 10pairs of output devices,   When you have this capability, any transducers will sing without stress 

[almikel]

On 11/04/2023 at 4:42 PM, ray4410 said:

your ears are the measuring tool which tell you if your amp or speakers are stressing,

ears, eyes and nose!

• ears hear stress as components near their limits, including thumps from drivers poling  
• eyes see drivers nearing/hitting limits and clip lights come on
• the nose detects smells when amps and drivers are working hard...maybe too hard!

I run my stereo very loud often - but when running it hard I always keep ears/eyes/nose aware of stress.

Too many times I've had drivers blown at parties when the wick gets turned up without a sympathetic ear/eye/nose noticing the stress  

 

Mike

[stereo coffee]

15 minutes ago, almikel said:

ears, eyes and nose!

• ears hear stress as components near their limits, including thumps from drivers poling  
• eyes see drivers nearing/hitting limits and clip lights come on
• the nose detects smells when amps and drivers are working hard...maybe too hard!

I run my stereo very loud often - but when running it hard I always keep ears/eyes/nose aware of stress.

Too many times I've had drivers blown at parties when the wick gets turned up without a sympathetic ear/eye/nose noticing the stress  

 

Mike

Hi Mike

Interesting !!  , My experience is quite the opposite,  in that I run mine very low,  often.

 

[almikel]

On 12/04/2023 at 10:49 PM, stereo coffee said:

Hi Mike

Interesting !!  , My experience is quite the opposite,  in that I run mine very low,  often.

fair call - you would run a very low risk of damaging any component ever...including your ears 

 

I do tend to run my stereo too loud too often from my ears' perspective

 

I'm much more conscious these days to limit the SPL and the time listening at high SPL - but sometimes when the mood fits, it's awesome to crank it!

 

Look after your ears. I take Etymotic ear plugs to live gigs these days.

 

Mike