Thoughts on direction from here?

[Sounding]

I have been doing a lot of thinking.

I don’t think I am unhappy with what I am hearing - indeed what I have now is the best system I have ever had the chance to hear. Closest to this was a pair of B&W 801D4 on Classe Delta at a demo room a year or so ago.

If I did nothing I can happily live with this.

The thing is, 18 months ago I had B&W CM9 speakers on a 200 watt Musical Fidelity M6i amp and it was the best I had heard - I was happy with that and Spotify and CD and MP3 for a decade. How little did I know.

And that’s part of the problem now - how little I know.

I recognise I’ve sort of gone all-in with these speakers. And I read plenty that tells me the electronics is not at the same level.

All of the current electronics came after I replaced the CM9 with the B&W 702 S2 Signature speakers - then the speakers were the weakest link - then, oops I skipped a few levels.

 

So I really think I need to come across from Tassie and have a look & listen to some great hardware, and learn a bit.

And see if I can find some people with experienced ears that can identify what’s good and what’s not about this setup.

And work out a budget.

 

My biggest doubt at the moment is the DAC. Some suggest that as I have the Auralic Aries+Sirius G2.1 combo I should look at the Vega G2.1 DAC. I am not certain because I am not sure whether I will stick with Auralic long term.

 

No hurry.

I appreciate all the advice. Very much on my own down here in northwest Tassie.

[NonPlayableCharacter]

27 minutes ago, Sounding said:

I have been doing a lot of thinking.

I don’t think I am unhappy with what I am hearing - indeed what I have now is the best system I have ever had the chance to hear. Closest to this was a pair of B&W 801D4 on Classe Delta at a demo room a year or so ago.

If I did nothing I can happily live with this.

The thing is, 18 months ago I had B&W CM9 speakers on a 200 watt Musical Fidelity M6i amp and it was the best I had heard - I was happy with that and Spotify and CD and MP3 for a decade. How little did I know.

And that’s part of the problem now - how little I know.

I recognise I’ve sort of gone all-in with these speakers. And I read plenty that tells me the electronics is not at the same level.

All of the current electronics came after I replaced the CM9 with the B&W 702 S2 Signature speakers - then the speakers were the weakest link - then, oops I skipped a few levels.

 

So I really think I need to come across from Tassie and have a look & listen to some great hardware, and learn a bit.

And see if I can find some people with experienced ears that can identify what’s good and what’s not about this setup.

And work out a budget.

 

My biggest doubt at the moment is the DAC. Some suggest that as I have the Auralic Aries+Sirius G2.1 combo I should look at the Vega G2.1 DAC. I am not certain because I am not sure whether I will stick with Auralic long term.

 

No hurry.

I appreciate all the advice. Very much on my own down here in northwest Tassie.

 

I hate to reiterate what has been said by others already, but respectfully, I don't think the penny has fully dropped for you on the importance of your room. I am not sure what your budget is for your next component, but if you just spent that much on some expertise and some absorption, diffusion and bass traps, you will release so much pent-up performance from your existing setup.

 

You have some wonderful kit that is not showing you its full capabilities. Better kit will likely not reveal much improvement either as it will be throttled by your room's response.

 

I refused to look at anything unsexy like panels for a long time, but there is no denying the up-tick you will get from just doing this little side-quest first.

 

@BugPowderDust put me on to Christian Corsini too. I have had Christian do an initial dual sub assessment and aid in speaker placement. Introducing dual REL S510 subs was a revelation and was done off that first engagement. I realised that this was only a step on the way to wringing every last cent of performance from my system. So, deep breath.... I had the helicopter-heads at Artnovion work with Christian to design the ideal suite of panels for my space using the REW sweeps taken during the first visit. My stuff is on a container on the seas somewhere and should be installed by August. I know, from other spaces, what treatments can do and I am more excited by this part of my project than I was obtaining my Arcam AV41 or my dual MC830 monoblocks. No, it isn't cheap to do it properly (I am north of $30k for my treatments), but you will end up with a better base upon which you can subsequently build on should the itch still not be fully scratched.

 

Good luck.

[Sounding]

9 minutes ago, El Tel said:

the importance of your room…. -> throttled by your room's response.

I’ve been working in another space on trying to figure out what the room is doing, end conclusion to where I am now at is I do not have faith in the second-hand Dayton UMM-6 calibration mic that I bought when I had the B&W speakers.

While not as deep, even the speakers built into the laptop screen are more receptive to higher frequencies. Laptop was in a slightly different position to the Dayton mic for this reading as the cat was asleep on the couch where I needed to be.

I know I cannot rely on laptop mics for such readings, I’m just trying to confirm the rolloff from about 7KHz is due to the mic.

For the Dayton, the cal file makes at most about 1dB change in a few places, hardly noticeable.

I did manually edit a cal file and do a test with that to check the cal file was being applied properly.

Once I have faith in the measuring equipment I will be doing lots of playing and learning, so I can indeed work on the room and check outcomes.

[Sounding]

The cat finally moved.

Here’s a reading of one speaker, red is the Dayton mic with cal file, highlight is the laptop built in mic from the same spot.

Dubious mic.

Putting it all away now. 
 

[BugPowderDust]

2 hours ago, Sounding said:

I’ve been working in another space on trying to figure out what the room is doing, end conclusion to where I am now at is I do not have faith in the second-hand Dayton UMM-6 calibration mic that I bought when I had the B&W speakers.

I saw your REW results in the other thread and immediately thought "sumthing ain't right".  You have confirmed it.

[Sounding]

I am going to be conflicted when I get a good mic.

Jubilation in being able to see things for what they are, and perhaps a bit of frustration working with this mic and achieving nothing, though it has given me a better understanding of the REW software.

[BugPowderDust]

When you get a clean measurement don’t be afraid to put a Dropbox link to the measurements up so we can take a look.

[joz]

9 hours ago, El Tel said:

 

I hate to reiterate what has been said by others already, but respectfully, I don't think the penny has fully dropped for you on the importance of your room. I am not sure what your budget is for your next component, but if you just spent that much on some expertise and some absorption, diffusion and bass traps, you will release so much pent-up performance from your existing setup.

 

You have some wonderful kit that is not showing you its full capabilities. Better kit will likely not reveal much improvement either as it will be throttled by your room's response.

 

I refused to look at anything unsexy like panels for a long time, but there is no denying the up-tick you will get from just doing this little side-quest first.

 

@BugPowderDust put me on to Christian Corsini too. I have had Christian do an initial dual sub assessment and aid in speaker placement. Introducing dual REL S510 subs was a revelation and was done off that first engagement. I realised that this was only a step on the way to wringing every last cent of performance from my system. So, deep breath.... I had the helicopter-heads at Artnovion work with Christian to design the ideal suite of panels for my space using the REW sweeps taken during the first visit. My stuff is on a container on the seas somewhere and should be installed by August. I know, from other spaces, what treatments can do and I am more excited by this part of my project than I was obtaining my Arcam AV41 or my dual MC830 monoblocks. No, it isn't cheap to do it properly (I am north of $30k for my treatments), but you will end up with a better base upon which you can subsequently build on should the itch still not be fully scratched.

 

Good luck.

as suggested above.

and what I have suggested already.

fix your bass.

Room treatments, they have never been as sexy and as exciting as a new component, but they make any existing component sexier to listen to.

Bass and room interaction is key.

 

Edited June 7, 2023 by joz

[Piddi]

The room has a massive impact - agreed. But also amplification and source incl cables play such a huge part in synergy. You just can’t connect some amps to a pair of $100k speakers. These sort of speakers deserve a decent room and amplification in the same magnitude / cost. And then there’s ancillaries such as cables, grounding… You’ll never hear what these speakers can do if using a $500 USB cable… you need transparent, high end separates to be able to appreciate Tidal. People forget this when buying high end speakers - there’s a massive investment involved if you take this serious. You got the speakers for a good price though… 

[Sounding]

On 7/6/2023 at 11:33 PM, joz said:

fix your bass

Done. Well, good for now. Only the REL S/510 on high level connection from the left amp, crossover is about 4 clicks above minimum, level is from memory about 9 o’clock. It integrates very seamlessly and the experience is such that I feel like I have a pair of Fyne F702 in front of me, massive drivers… One day I will replace the B&W sub with another REL for the right channel, but one is fine for now.

Also, a very recent addition to the lounge, the leather from the sofa suite and the faux leather from the sofa bed is all gone, replaced by a soft fabric 3 piece lounge suite. A 3 seater 2.5 metres wide that would sit 5 at a push, a 2 seater that would seat 3 and a single that acts as a nice 2 seater lovers chair. With all this soft furniture in the room things are more enjoyable.

 

6 minutes ago, Piddi said:

These sort of speakers deserve a decent room and amplification in the same magnitude / cost.

Agreed, though they perform admirably with what I have now.

I have discovered the Tidal Contros. Will cost about $90K which I can’t afford yet, but something to aspire to in years to come. Streamer, DAC, preamp all in 1 box at the level of quality that would do any system justice.

From my original thought of reducing everything to one box, to staying with separates, to thinking one box again.

With a few years to wait to afford that expense, I have plenty of time to enjoy and refine what I have now.

What I hope to one day find is an audio person who I can get to come here (northwest Tasmania) and have a good listen to what I have, and advise where it’s at and where it could be.

The room is always going to be difficult, though I have been working at it and I think it is not as bad as I thought it was.

I also hope to one day loan / hire a high end DAC so I can see how much it changes things. No hurry though. A good listen session yesterday and again today and it’s really impressing me.

 

[akjono]

Great thread. I read this a week ago and just getting back to it. As mentioned, I agree with Room/Spatial dynamics affecting what your ear 'hears'. Therefore room treatments, bass traps. And another biggie, power amps affect sound. Not only tubes vs Solid State, but design. And as mentioned power cables, and other connectors. Not always profound but can be in my experience. 

 

BTW, I am in North Motton for another month or so. Not far. Happy to come over, and lend an ear. Upgraditis isn't fatal, but it can be a like a 'condition'. But chances are you aren't getting what you most want from your system. And as mentioned many times, it is a journey, so enjoying the music is one of my most important metrics. 

 

PM me if you like. 

 

Cheers, Jonathan

 

[Sounding]

52 minutes ago, akjono said:

PM me if you like. 

Done.

Yes it’s been an interesting journey and I am learning about room treatment, I will need to identify what I need, then how to achieve it which will also suitable for a WAF that thinks it sounds good now…

Well, it does sound good  - best I have heard - though I am also interested in how good, and how much better it can be.

[tripitaka]

On 23/06/2023 at 10:25 PM, Sounding said:

Done. Well, good for now. Only the REL S/510 on high level connection from the left amp, crossover is about 4 clicks above minimum, level is from memory about 9 o’clock. It integrates very seamlessly and the experience is such that I feel like I have a pair of Fyne F702 in front of me, massive drivers… One day I will replace the B&W sub with another REL for the right channel, but one is fine for now.

Also, a very recent addition to the lounge, the leather from the sofa suite and the faux leather from the sofa bed is all gone, replaced by a soft fabric 3 piece lounge suite. A 3 seater 2.5 metres wide that would sit 5 at a push, a 2 seater that would seat 3 and a single that acts as a nice 2 seater lovers chair. With all this soft furniture in the room things are more enjoyable.

 

Agreed, though they perform admirably with what I have now.

I have discovered the Tidal Contros. Will cost about $90K which I can’t afford yet, but something to aspire to in years to come. Streamer, DAC, preamp all in 1 box at the level of quality that would do any system justice.

From my original thought of reducing everything to one box, to staying with separates, to thinking one box again.

With a few years to wait to afford that expense, I have plenty of time to enjoy and refine what I have now.

What I hope to one day find is an audio person who I can get to come here (northwest Tasmania) and have a good listen to what I have, and advise where it’s at and where it could be.

The room is always going to be difficult, though I have been working at it and I think it is not as bad as I thought it was.

I also hope to one day loan / hire a high end DAC so I can see how much it changes things. No hurry though. A good listen session yesterday and again today and it’s really impressing me.

 

Very good to hear this is fixed, you are among the lucky few that can successfully integrate bass with 'just a  turn of the subby dial'

 

What sort of level do get flat down to now, I'm guessing maybe 40 or so?

 

Your original roll-off started at 90 so even that would make a huge difference!

 

 

 

 

[Sounding]

@tripitaka I am not using any sub for 2 channel now.

I have been doing a lot of discovery.

I have a little bit of EQ and I have just installed a cheap fix for bass transfer into the suspended timber floor - a piece of MDF and a piece of a $10 Kmart yoga foam mat.

Not perfect, but certainly better. When I can afford, I will be getting proper isolation feet.

And I need to find a way to add absorption to the room which is wife compatible / matches the aesthetics of our place.

I will keep chipping away…

 

 

[tripitaka]

5 minutes ago, Sounding said:

@tripitaka I am not using any sub for 2 channel now.

I have been doing a lot of discovery.

I have a little bit of EQ and I have just installed a cheap fix for bass transfer into the suspended timber floor - a piece of MDF and a piece of a $10 Kmart yoga foam mat.

Not perfect, but certainly better. When I can afford, I will be getting proper isolation feet.

And I need to find a way to add absorption to the room which is wife compatible / matches the aesthetics of our place.

I will keep chipping away…

 

 

Congrats, my word that's an amazing curve for no subbies involved !!

[akjono]

1 hour ago, Sounding said:

@tripitaka I am not using any sub for 2 channel now.

I have been doing a lot of discovery.

I have a little bit of EQ and I have just installed a cheap fix for bass transfer into the suspended timber floor - a piece of MDF and a piece of a $10 Kmart yoga foam mat.

Not perfect, but certainly better. When I can afford, I will be getting proper isolation feet.

And I need to find a way to add absorption to the room which is wife compatible / matches the aesthetics of our place.

I will keep chipping away…

 

 

Cool cheap treatment for the speakers. Stops that floor from resonating, and 'clean up' unwanted vibes. Good job mate.

 

[tripitaka]

2 minutes ago, akjono said:

Cool cheap treatment for the speakers. Stops that floor from resonating, and 'clean up' unwanted vibes. Good job mate.

 

That's what I would have expected since it is bascially an isolation platform, but I think @Sounding is actually going for floor coupling. 

Seems pretty counterintuitive, but his flat curve down to 20hz speaks for itself, I guess!?

[Sounding]

53 minutes ago, tripitaka said:

but his flat curve down to 20hz speaks for itself, I guess!?

That curve is actually a graph of the EQ settings.

There is no way my bass curve is flat. I need a lot of room treatment, but I have a WAF to overcome.

The speaker was straight on the floor, it’s a suspended timber floor and the room was doing some pretty funky and spectacular things with the bass, as it did with the previous speakers.

With little money and significant curiosity I have been trying things.

The yoga mat is made of an interesting rubber, it is sort of soft and pliable yet doesn’t compress much.

Initially I was going to use 2 layers as the speakers are heavy (around 100kg each), but it would have been quite wobbly with two.

With one, it floats there pretty well, the rubber hadn’t compressed much, and now the bass doesn’t sound so muffled.

I know that when I had B&W 702 S2 Signature speakers they made the floor vibrate significantly enough that sitting there with my feet on the floor, the vibrations were distracting to the point that I preferred to listen with my legs crossed on the couch.

Then I bought Isoacoustics Gaia III feet for those speakers and it was a world of change.

These new Tidal speakers are, quite simply, amazing! Of course the room is as it was, so I have every intention of getting some proper feet for them, when my budget allows.

Meanwhile, it’s just tinkering and trying stuff - particularly since I have learnt more about REW, waterfall graphs, RT60 Decay, and slowly getting there with learning about the spectrograph.

With the soft rubber underneath the board, they are doing a similar job to what the Gaia III feet did with the old speakers. So it’s a cheap workaround for now, the intention is to isolate the speakers from the floor - not couple them.

There are lots of feet available, one I am curious about is the Auva 100 from Stack Audio. No way can I afford $1250 x 8 for the Stillpoint Ultra 5, nor will my room ever be at the audio-phonic level to warrant such a purchase - it’s an odd space.

Before I applied the platforms and foam rubber mat under the speakers, I had a waterfall graph like this - certainly showing a lot of bloom in the bass frequencies.

I am keen to do some more measurements tomorrow, to see whether the difference with the mat is measurable.

[akjono]

Next level is stone to replace wood! @tripitaka I did understand that curve is what @Sounding set the EQ levels at. 

 

Spikes/Planks/Rubber or carpet patches, all will alter the speaker vibrations, and from there entering the wooden floor. The hope is to make the vibrations change to something that clears up dat Bass. It is a work in progress with a difficult room. Have fun!

 

 

[Sounding]

51 minutes ago, akjono said:

It is a work in progress with a difficult room.

Indeed. The original house is 98 years old, though it has been changed a bit. We’ve been in it 26 years with no plans to leave.

The suspended timber floor does move a bit. 
When I bought the two monoblocks, PrimaLuna pre & DAC, and these speakers, I am adding around 300kg to the floor, so getting under the house is something I need to do, to check on all the posts.

It’s worse in the dining room, the floor bounces a bit when walked on such that the hutch rattles a bit. I recall one of the posts for that room is an old kerosene tin filled with concrete, so I will probably have work to do.

Better add so e floor insulation while I’m in there, might keep things a bit warmer.

I’ll be getting access to under the house in a bit over a month - only access is through a wardrobe which will soon be emptied.

Meanwhile, certainly replacing the MDF with stone is something I can do.

I want to take some room sweep measurements with no speaker isolation, one rubbery layer as is currently, and two layers, just to see what happens.

But one thing I do know is the music is more clear now than it was when the speakers just sat on the floor.

[playdough]

On 07/06/2023 at 1:02 PM, Sounding said:

the best system

You should get out more

[essem]

98 yo house? Are your walls solid plaster (or lathe and plaster), or modern gyprock? Ceiling height? Huge difference in frequencies reflected by different materials. Solid plaster will reflect full range (hence bass will be bouncing around the room - your new sofa sounds like it helped there a bit) whereas with gyprock/stud walls a heap of bass will escape (leaving the room sounding bright). Even more low end will escape out through glass.

 

Everyone has given you good advice that with the wonderful high end gear you've assembled, to focus on room/speaker interaction especially with the bass. Getting a good sounding room is hard but so worthwhile. In an acoustically good room, even modest gear can sound fantastic when well matched (synergy) and appropriately placed.

 

Those old timber floors are going to be very resonant.  So the more you can decouple your lovely speakers the better, will tighten up the bass.  A granite or concrete "sandwich" with sorbothane or the kind of rubber mats they use to decouple industrial equipment from the floor (vibration minimisation) in the middle could be a cheap tweak (if height allows).

 

Do keep posting about your journey, and best of luck.

[Sounding]

So the concept of the MDF with a cutout from the Kmart yoga mat proved beneficial.

I’ve not found any stone the right size so I hit my timber shed and found my special plank, 285mm wide hardwood, 28mm thick and over 5 metres long.

Dug down to it and hacked iff a metre, dressed it up, cut to size and sanded, bow I have two solid hardwood bases, 280 x 480mm and still a good inch thick.

And under then I have doubled up the yoga mat so that’s 20mm uncompressed of foam mat.

Touching the board the speaker sits on and the floor beside the speaker at the same time and there is a huge difference, can hardly feel the floor vibrate.

It’s still an interim workaround, but will do for now.

 

Next discovery, never use Bluetooth for connecting to your hardware for REW sweeps.

These 2 sweeps, without EQ, one being Bluetooth and the other is USB straight to the DAC.

 

 

Where I am at now, a lot happier with things.

I mean, I have been happy for a while but it’s getting better.

Apart from bass issues the decay at 400 to 450ms and pretty flat, without treatment, seems better than a lot of graphs I have seen, though I’m still green at it.

 

I’ve had a small win re room treatment and the WAF, I am going to build some panels out of some coffee bags I have here, wife’s response was “not as bad as I thought it was going to be”.

I found this photo as something I could show her, though I imagine mine will need too be thicker.

 

So now I am shopping for a suitable substance to place inside the bags. I believe I need something in the 45 - 60 kg/M3 and ideally at least 10cm thick, will be interesting.

 

[playdough]

On 24/07/2023 at 11:56 PM, Sounding said:

need too be thicker.

No, not really, 50mm would be enough. Polymax medium density. 

 

[Piddi]

I used 2400x1200 sheets if CSR Martini for absorption. Two 50mm layers cut into a wooden frame , covered with breathable linen and finished off with Merbeau wooden slats.
Diffusers behind speakers (Artnovion) and managing first and second reflection points (Artnovion) made all a massive difference whilst meeting the WAV. The sonic improvements are mind blowing to say the least. 

 

https://www.csrmartini.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/Martini-DataSheet-Absorb_0421.pdf