A Conversation About Seller's Fees

[Analogueage]

I too have noticed an increase in the "sold elsewhere" syndrome. However, are there any actual statistics in the stereoNet database that show whether or not this is actually true i.e. before and after the enforced 4%. For what it's worth I support any model that stereoNet choose to implement.

Rob

[Cloth Ears]

19 hours ago, Analogueage said:

I too have noticed an increase in the "sold elsewhere" syndrome. However, are there any actual statistics in the stereoNet database that show whether or not this is actually true i.e. before and after the enforced 4%. For what it's worth I support any model that stereoNet choose to implement.

Rob

Well, I (and a seller) got bitten by this recently. We agreed on a price, only to realise that someone had bid (and the auction had closed) on Ebay. The specific "sold elsewhere" syndrome that Marc was interested in stopping, I believe, was the practice of using StereoNet to simply redirect purchasers to an ad for the same item on Gumtree (or other 'free listing' site). I don't believe that people should be required to not advertise on multiple sites - or that they should be required to may fees on multiple sites for the same item.

I also will support any model. But depending on the model I might not use it.

[Guest]

First change has been implemented (based on feedback here in this thread), and the 2% fee of the sliding scale has now been reduced to $20,000 (from $50,000). 

[Guest]

As a further result of the feedback here, the fees have been reduced - the sliding scale now starts at 4.75% and down to 3.3%, with a capped maximum fee of $250.

[Guest]

I've hidden a couple of posts relating to Classifieds categories, which has nothing to do with Seller's Fees.
Those comments would be better placed in the discussion thread for that exact topic please:

 

 

[Ehrmantraut]

SNA classifieds is (IME), the best forum to buy and sell quality HiFi. The scaled seller’s fees are manageable, especially with recent changes and the vast majority of buyers/sellers are very decent folk. The sheer range of HiFi for sale is a boon for those of us that find it very difficult to demo the good gear (BNE) and oftentimes the best way to try something that is only available OS. I feel that the current admin policing of non payers will coerce those people to go elsewhere or comply. You won’t weed it out completely. 

As highlighted previously, the challenge with fees is the value proposition. As a buyer, you get a smorgasbord of quality HiFi at palatable price points. As a seller, you get a knowledgeable audience without the usual tyre kickers and knobs. However, there’s some risk attached. That’s why I won’t sell to  or buy from someone with less than 10 +ve feedback comments. It’s a private sale with little recourse if something goes wrong. I’ve been lucky, others haven’t, especially with the forum getting on the radar of scammers.

A subscription fee or service that provides buyer/seller verification would be attractive to me as someone who turns over a lot of gear.

And a note to you sellers who put in “+4% PayPal and 4% SNA seller fees” in their ads plus “shipping at agreed cost” - you’re dreaming! Unless you’re selling a unicorn, it’s a buyer’s market baby.

[Bass13]

I'm happy to pay my fee's & do so when selling on Stereonet, not a issue..

 

Imo.... the cost of low value items say under $800 or $500 percentage of 2% seems more reasonable.

I've always paid my fee's here, but it seems that some people have taken advantage of this and have sold heaps of items, and advised that it was sold elsewhere, or have paid hardly anything to stereonet once sold, at the cost of the rest of us.

 

I have a few other hobbies, and I sell items on other site's just like recently I sold something for $2370 I paid a $10 sellers fee, being a member or $20 if your not a member, regardless of what price you sold it for.

 

Car sales is another example: Private sales previously cost $68 for all vehicles over $5000, with premium ads costing $135. Now cars priced over $15,000 will cost $75 to advertise, cars over $20,000 will cost $85, and cars over $30,000 will cost $95.

 

Most of us here are not commercial reseller's dealers or are selling gear to make money, or on behalf of someone else, etc, just trying to get some of our money back, to go onto my/our next adventures, and I'm happy to pay a fair sellers fee to stereonet, to do so.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 25, 2023 by Bass13

[twwen2]

Thought I'd chip in here with a perspective I don't think I've seen mentioned yet.

 

I'm an enthusiast across multiple hobbies (hifi, cameras, computers, etc), and have participated in numerous online forums over the past decade. I've bought and sold hundreds of items through those forums' classifieds, and never once had to pay seller's fees... until now. I work in technology and understand the costs behind operating a large & growing website like SNA, but what doesn't sit well with me is the obvious and intentional commercialisation of the platform. @Marc you've been up front in calling it what it is - a business - and that's absolutely your prerogative. Just be aware that sets SNA apart from how most online enthusiast communities have traditionally operated, or at least the ones I've been a part of.

 

Don't get me wrong; I've donated to other community forums because I've wanted to give back, and have also chosen to be a "paid member" on a few sites which restrict classifieds access to such members - a model I'd much prefer because it's fairer and doesn't shift more of the burden onto the people who buy and sell in higher volumes, or those who sell more expensive items. 

 

Now that I've got that more philosophical bit out of the way, I'd like to point out a more practical implication of the current seller's fees model. For those of us whose primary enjoyment of the hobby is through the frequent buying and selling of equipment (because we love trying out different stuff in our quest to find perfection), seller's fees creates a real dilemma - I'm now faced with a choice of losing money on each transaction, or having to increase the price of each item so as to not lose money on it. I've always viewed the buying and selling of gear to be a cost-neutral exercise; I've not sought to make a profit, but I'm definitely not setting out to lose money either. I'd like to be able to buy a piece of gear, try it out for a few months and move it on to the next buyer without losing money to fees or having to jack the price up to cover those costs. If I (and others) choose the latter approach, then in theory that item will have to continually creep up in value over each subsequent transaction, and that doesn't feel like a good outcome for the community either. 

 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, twwen2 said:

Thought I'd chip in here with a perspective I don't think I've seen mentioned yet.

 

I'm an enthusiast across multiple hobbies (hifi, cameras, computers, etc), and have participated in numerous online forums over the past decade. I've bought and sold hundreds of items through those forums' classifieds, and never once had to pay seller's fees... until now. I work in technology and understand the costs behind operating a large & growing website like SNA, but what doesn't sit well with me is the obvious and intentional commercialisation of the platform. @Marc you've been up front in calling it what it is - a business - and that's absolutely your prerogative. Just be aware that sets SNA apart from how most online enthusiast communities have traditionally operated, or at least the ones I've been a part of.

 

Don't get me wrong; I've donated to other community forums because I've wanted to give back, and have also chosen to be a "paid member" on a few sites which restrict classifieds access to such members - a model I'd much prefer because it's fairer and doesn't shift more of the burden onto the people who buy and sell in higher volumes, or those who sell more expensive items. 

 

Now that I've got that more philosophical bit out of the way, I'd like to point out a more practical implication of the current seller's fees model. For those of us whose primary enjoyment of the hobby is through the frequent buying and selling of equipment (because we love trying out different stuff in our quest to find perfection), seller's fees creates a real dilemma - I'm now faced with a choice of losing money on each transaction, or having to increase the price of each item so as to not lose money on it. I've always viewed the buying and selling of gear to be a cost-neutral exercise; I've not sought to make a profit, but I'm definitely not setting out to lose money either. I'd like to be able to buy a piece of gear, try it out for a few months and move it on to the next buyer without losing money to fees or having to jack the price up to cover those costs. If I (and others) choose the latter approach, then in theory that item will have to continually creep up in value over each subsequent transaction, and that doesn't feel like a good outcome for the community either. 

 

 

Thanks for your input. I think I explained why the need for this in detail in one of my first posts.

 

I've also participated in and/or owned many forums or "enthusiast communties" over the past two decades. Sadly, many of those early ones are no longer around. In my experience, the biggest reason for it is that they were not commercially successful, as this is one of the few ways to keep a site thriving. Love, can only take you so far, particularly as you go through life's stages and your responsibilities and pressures change. I'm not really interested in what others do - as every site/community or business, is different. I've had to make many decisions along the way and I'm comfortable with them, for the most part.

One thing I have gone on record many times saying, is that StereoNET will remain free. That's still my intention. As there are alternative platforms to sell products, and choice, that still remains true today. It costs nothing to participate in the discussion forums, seek advice, or make friendship, to this day.

 

We have considered all models over the years. All have their pros and cons. You do infer a little that our model is perhaps "wrong" and the others are "right". I don't accept that. At the end of the day I have to make the decisions that ensure the longevity of StereoNET, and to date, that is working, at least until the numbers tell me otherwise (by that I mean active members and monthly readership). But we always evolve, and this model won't be the only one we will adopt or develop further into the future.

 

Our little industry and hobby that is hi-fi is niche. It's certainly not as large as computers or cameras. It requires a suitably unique approach and model that works.

[Jakeyb77_Redux]

I have noticed on my most recent of sales that the sellers have basically neglected to mark the items as sold. 
I assume to let them expire to avoid fees. 
For one of the sales I wasn’t sure if the seller was selling the item multiple times as messaging ceased after the sale. (The item arrived thankfully)

I have also noticed that even though I have left positive feedback for the sellers they have not reciprocated. I assume to avoid any detection of the sale. 
 

Avoiding seller’s fees has always been an issue I suppose but the obvious use of these tactics and sold elsewhere or withdrawn just seem to be the norm now. 
 

Times are tough but the fees SNA ask for are minimal and the experience of transactions is a lot better than some other places.

 

Anyway just wanted to express my observations 

[Guest]

Yep most of my working day is now doing admin on approving ads, fixing ads, moving ads, chasing up seller's fees, resolving disputes and so on. While most do the right thing, the vast amount that are not is alarming. The Seller's Fees do not even go part way to paying someone's wage to manage it all even if we wanted to, or cover all the other associated costs, and it would be nice if there was anything left over to actually give the Volunteers something back for what they do (not that they have ever asked). 

 

Then when I do remind someone about Seller's Fees I'm always one "View Message" away from being on the receiving end of abuse.

 

None of it is fun any more.

 

 

Every ad now has a "Purchased" button which is intended for the Purchaser to let us know they have bought an item here. This has been working well to pickup a lot of ads that the seller has 'forgotten' to mark their item as sold.

 

One purchaser contacted me last week. They let me know that once they got to the other member's house to pay and pickup the item, the seller encouraged them not to leave feedback so they wouldn't have to pay fees. 

 

Ultimately two things will eventually happen. Classifieds will move to pay up front a listing fee (have always been opposed to this), or, we drop the Classifieds altogether. My time is becoming more important to me as I get older, and I can't and don't want to do 14-15 hour days any more. Not taking anything away from the Volunteers either who do much of it when I am pulled away from here, for which we should be appreciative of.

[Jakeyb77_Redux]

2 minutes ago, Marc said:

Yep most of my working day is now doing admin on approving ads, fixing ads, moving ads, chasing up seller's fees, resolving disputes and so on. While most do the right thing, the vast amount that are not is alarming. The Seller's Fees do not even go part way to paying someone's wage to manage it all, or cover all the associated costs, and it would be nice if there was anything left over to actually give the Volunteers something back for what they do (not that they have ever asked). 

 

Then when I do remind someone about Seller's Fees I'm always one "View Message" away from being on the receiving end of abuse.

 

None of it is fun any more.

 

 

Every ad now has a "Purchased" button which is intended for the Purchaser to let us know they have bought an item here. This has been working well to pickup a lot of ads that the seller has 'forgotten' to mark their item as sold.

 

One purchaser contacted me last week. They let me know that once they got to the other member's house to pay and pickup the item, the seller encouraged them not to leave feedback so they wouldn't have to pay fees. 

 

Ultimately two things will eventually happen. Classifieds will move to pay up front a listing fee (have always been opposed to this), or, we drop the Classifieds altogether. My time is becoming more important to me as I get older, and I can't and don't want to do 14-15 hour days any more. Not taking anything away from the Volunteers either who do much of it when I am pulled away from here. 

It’s a shame it has come to this.

I wasn’t aware of the “purchased” option and will be sure to use it going forward.

 

Sometimes we don’t know what we’ve got till it’s gone. 

Thanks again to yourself and the volunteers. 

 

[Gee Emm]

9 minutes ago, Marc said:

One purchaser contacted me last week. They let me know that once they got to the other member's house to pay and pickup the item, the seller encouraged them not to leave feedback so they wouldn't have to pay fees. 

 

Everyone has to get paid!

Even the invisible people.

[rantan]

12 minutes ago, Marc said:

My time is becoming more important to me as I get older, and I can't and don't want to do 14-15 hour days any more. Not taking anything away from the Volunteers either who do much of it when I am pulled away from here, for which we should be appreciative of.

 

If there is one big thing I have learned as I age is that there really isn't much time in people's lives and dealing with non paying scum and being verbally abused are right up there with things that are not needed in life.

My advice?

Take this time to spend with your family, time is so short and there are some things that you never get a chance to do again so don't put this off for another month/year. Enjoy watching your kids grow and interacting with them, these are precious moments never to be re gained.

Impose a listing fee and ban  those who don't pay without a life or death excuse. Yo really,truly don't need this crap in your life when there are so many real priorities, which are the people in your life and not some audio fool

[5L15]

@Marc

If it’s only a minority of members who you believe are taking an advantage of the current system on SNA? 
Are you able to create a traffic light system for you and the volunteers?

*Green for business as usual for the majority of members.

*Orange is pay up front before approval of listing.

*Red is Band from selling.

 

They say it works in schools for behavioural purposes?

 

Obviously you would have a fair idea of who should be on the Orange and Red list already

 

I do like the implementation of the buyer being able to mark the listing as purchased

Edited February 21, 2024 by 5L15

[Andythiing]

Yep @Marc don’t put up with it - just charge listing fee 

[franky995]

Time to introduce a small upfront listing fee with free re-list option if unsold which will reduce admin to zero. Given the size of the forum whilst it would of course be desirable that everyone always pays their fees it is simply not realistic to expect that there are no issues with fee collection. The current system struggles to cope the bigger the classified section gets. Personally I don’t think getting buyers and admins to police this is a good approach but of course up to the owners to make a call on this.

[audiofeline]

I like the introduction of the "purchased" button. 

I hope it creates enough of a change to prevent prepaid ads. 

[Dystoria]

1 hour ago, 5L15 said:

Green for business as usual for the majority of members.

*Orange is pay up front before approval of listing.

*Red is Band from selling.

Hmmm, I kinda like this idea. It could work if it can be implemented during an "off boarding" stage of the user experience (where there is a simple mechanism to flag unusual / poor (??) behavior during the buyers 'Purchased' stage) allowing admin to follow up. Multiple flags by buyers = sellers pay upfront. Repeated  / continued = banned. There would need to be flexibility in policy but doable. Happy to discuss Marc.

 

I'd have used this type of mechanism after I was contacted by a buyer, via SMS, to make payment outside of the SNA ecosystem so seller fees were avoided. Politely declined and paid half the seller fees. I'm positive this was a repeat offense as the seller was temporarily banned 2 weeks before I purchased the gear (but the ban had been lifted!). I'd love to have flagged the request but there was no clear and easy mechanism to provide feedback to admin (this negative feedback may not accord to the positive feedback given for a sellers 'quick shipping' or the condition of xxxxxx  'exceeding expectations').

 

I'm sure most sellers would be "green" but there's likely no data on this and it might be Wishful Thinking

 

 

 

 

[Ehrmantraut]

I see this as a classic example of a “community” forum taking on a commercial arm. The two can’t exist in the same space. The “community” side exists on harmony and a shared commonality, the commercial side is what it is. What starts as a “garage sale” or Gumtree type of deal becomes eBay. Now, I’m sure that the commercialisation of SNA supports the finances of the sharing side of the forum for the education and edification of its members. The “classified” section is there to support that. Therefore, move that arm to be more commercial, in line with other platforms like eBay. Make no excuses for what it is. It’s there to support the forum and its content. There is nothing like this in AUS to sell second hand quality audio gear to an educated audience with lower fees than any other platform. 

[ray4410]

14 hours ago, Marc said:

Yep most of my working day is now doing admin on approving ads, fixing ads, moving ads, chasing up seller's fees, resolving disputes and so on. While most do the right thing, the vast amount that are not is alarming. The Seller's Fees do not even go part way to paying someone's wage to manage it all even if we wanted to, or cover all the other associated costs, and it would be nice if there was anything left over to actually give the Volunteers something back for what they do (not that they have ever asked). 

 

Then when I do remind someone about Seller's Fees I'm always one "View Message" away from being on the receiving end of abuse.

 

None of it is fun any more.

 

 

Every ad now has a "Purchased" button which is intended for the Purchaser to let us know they have bought an item here. This has been working well to pickup a lot of ads that the seller has 'forgotten' to mark their item as sold.

 

One purchaser contacted me last week. They let me know that once they got to the other member's house to pay and pickup the item, the seller encouraged them not to leave feedback so they wouldn't have to pay fees. 

 

Ultimately two things will eventually happen. Classifieds will move to pay up front a listing fee (have always been opposed to this), or, we drop the Classifieds altogether. My time is becoming more important to me as I get older, and I can't and don't want to do 14-15 hour days any more. Not taking anything away from the Volunteers either who do much of it when I am pulled away from here, for which we should be appreciative of.

time to slow down and smell the Rose's,stress is a killer.

[Analogueage]

I have advocated before and completely support the upfront fee. The fee could be modest perhaps subject to advertised price and deducted from any ultimate fee that Stereo Net choose to implement. 

[April Snow]

15 hours ago, audiofeline said:

I like the introduction of the "purchased" button. 

I hope it creates enough of a change to prevent prepaid ads. 

 

I like it too, it calls out those sellers that do not mark items as sold! 

 

It is up to those of us that buy from the classifieds to mark "as purchased" if the seller fails to after giving them a reasonable amount of time to do so.

 

I guess time will tell if it helps and works...........a good idea to try it first then review the results 

 

[NonPlayableCharacter]

20 hours ago, franky995 said:

which will reduce admin to zero

 

Not the case I'm afraid. There is extensive activity that goes along with reviewing and approving ads. This is all in the interests of protecting members from scams and in ensuring that ads are concise, accurate and unambiguous. None of this changes regardless of what happens with dishonest sellers and the fees that are due.

 

As a volunteer, I would estimate I spend 2-3hrs per day on classifieds reviewing/approving and the weeding done with new member introductions that do not pass scrutiny (these are often a prelude to fraudulent activities with classifieds).

 

Unfortunately, the forensics that uncover sellers, and the chasing down thereof, are the sole purview of @Marc and his tools. This is something the rest of the volunteers are unable to help with and it falls on him alone. It's a waste of time for him and prevents attention being spent on matters that would improve the site and experience for everyone. It is a narrow-minded, selfish and pathetic act on those that game the system - it is robbing from the rest of the community.

[Jakeyb77_Redux]

I think some sort of recognition of history might help. 
I’ve got only one eBay account since 2009 with 100% positive feedback.

My SNA history was the same back to 2014 on my old profile and this one has 100% positive feedback also. 
 

We used certain quality checking tools in Fed Govt departments.

When you start you’re on 100% checking.

As you prove yourself eventually 2% of your work is checked.

 

This would at least save checking ads that should be within the guidelines with a trusted seller.

Unless you’re a dumba$$ like me and put it in the wrong section  

 

It would also tell other members that a transaction with that person may be easy.

 

Unless of course a profile gets hijacked but that’s not going to be the majority