bob_m_54 Posted June 17, 2023 Posted June 17, 2023 28 minutes ago, March Audio said: Indeed. Psycoacoustics science is actually very well advanced. See lossy codecs. I think the argument above is only a hair widths away from the straw man of "we don't know everything yet" Yes, but only in the way we perceive audio. Not how it is produced.. Like I said we have the knowledge and equipment to measure every physical aspect, and how changes to the physical properties can affect the output. But we can't measure fully how or why someone may perceive a sound differently to someone else, even though it is the same sound. ie. If it's not measurable, it's not a change/difference in the audio produced, it all in the perception, which can be highly influenced.
MLXXX Posted June 17, 2023 Posted June 17, 2023 (edited) 8 hours ago, The Mad Scientist said: I If you want to shortcut to the really confronting audio perception demonstration, skip to Poppy Crum's presentation at 5:27. I note that in the second part of her demonstration the "s" referred to is not the "s" at the end of legislatures, but the "s" in the middle of that word. As for the pop song played backwards, we certainly can be persuaded to hear particular words if we are prompted as to what they might be! It's a feature of some modern movies that portions of the dialogue are near unintelligible. However once you have subtitles to refer to or have been told by someone else or have been able to work out for yourself what the unclear words were, then suddenly the otherwise near unintelligible words can sound very, very clear! It certainly is risky to rely on our perceptions of changes in sound with respect to changes in cables, without seeking corroborating evidence. (E.g. blind testing live or from recordings; or using measurements.) Edited June 17, 2023 by MLXXX
Satanica Posted June 17, 2023 Posted June 17, 2023 (edited) 9 hours ago, rocky500 said: This is where you get it all wrong. No one says science is wrong, far from it but the interpretation presented by a lot of people on the net that I think does not lead this hobby in a forward direction. Just my opinion. I think I have linked somewhere to one of the head designers of some of the leading test equipment mentioning that we do not have the equipment good enough yet today to relate measurements to what people perceive and enjoy. It was the company that makes the AP Audio analyzers. This is where you (and others) get it all wrong. This is a discussion about cables and you've just (tried) to expand it into everything related to audio production. This is a common debate tactic and that is to try to swamp your opposition with a seemingly impossible task. Here you bunch of smarty pants guys, try and solve this complex issue (which probably requires a complex explanantion). Oh, you can't do it? Right, so every other piece of information you put forward has little value. Edited June 17, 2023 by Satanica
muon* Posted June 17, 2023 Posted June 17, 2023 Yeah, like others have stated I also don't see the anti science movement here that some are postulating. 3
rocky500 Posted June 17, 2023 Posted June 17, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Satanica said: This is where you (and others) get it all wrong. This is a discussion about cables and you've just (tried) to expand it into everything related to audio production. This is a common debate tactic and that is to try to swamp your opposition with a seemingly impossible task. Here you bunch of smarty pants guys, try and solve this complex issue (which probably requires a complex explanantion). Oh, you can't do it? Right, so every other piece of information you put forward has little value. Hi Paul, Yes I take it as just a discussion with most of what I want to do on SNA. There are no tactics, just trying to express some of my own views and what I have found and how I may approach this hobby. I would like to think we are all able to put our views across without to much angst and have a discussion. I really do just treat this as a fun hobby and do not want to try and prove anything to anyone, just want to find what works best for me and may mention it on here for others to see if others might find similar findings and offer some other insights. The last thing I am looking for is conflict and having to try and prove anything, as that is not what its about for me. I seem to think (personal opinion again) that its all audio and the measurements are applicable to all what is involved, including cables. Personally again I think measurements are great for designing products but have yet to progress to being to able to predict what people may prefer, myself included. Personally I have not heard huge differences in cables, but enough times I have heard slight improvements in some cables in my listening, that I will try certain brands out that may be mentioned by others having a positive impact from time to time. It's all part of the fun. Edited June 17, 2023 by rocky500 1
March Audio Posted June 17, 2023 Posted June 17, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, bob_m_54 said: Yes, but only in the way we perceive audio. Not how it is produced.. Like I said we have the knowledge and equipment to measure every physical aspect, and how changes to the physical properties can affect the output. But we can't measure fully how or why someone may perceive a sound differently to someone else, even though it is the same sound. ie. If it's not measurable, it's not a change/difference in the audio produced, it all in the perception, which can be highly influenced. If it were the case that we all percieve sound very differently, then you couldn't devise psychoacoustic codecs such as mp3. If we all perceive sou ds very differently the Floyde Toole subjective speaker research wouldn't have been able to conclude a set rules for speaker design. The subjects preferred the same traits. However, yes I 100% agree with you that perception can be influenced and biased by many factors. Take those biasing influences out of the equation and things start to normalise. Edited June 17, 2023 by March Audio
March Audio Posted June 17, 2023 Posted June 17, 2023 (edited) 11 minutes ago, rocky500 said: Personally again I think measurements are great for designing products but have yet to progress to being to able to predict what people may prefer Floyd Toole with speakers has demonstrated that's not the case. Edited June 17, 2023 by March Audio
March Audio Posted June 17, 2023 Posted June 17, 2023 14 minutes ago, rocky500 said: Personally I have not heard huge differences in cables, but enough times I have heard slight improvements in some cables in my listening And that tallies with the science; that it's possible for cables to be different enough in their electrical characteristics that some could have a very small influence on sound.
POV Posted June 17, 2023 Posted June 17, 2023 22 hours ago, tripitaka said: A man after my own heart: "if you can't hear the difference between a 5k system and a 50k system then buy the cheaper and spend the difference on wine" Mind you, most of us can certainly hear the difference at his quoted $ values. Still, wherever our cut-off threshold happens to be, we should definitely switch to buying wine at that exact point My experience on this is that the outcome is entirely dependent on the room and acoustic environment. I have heard $5-10k systems in well suited, well treated rooms sound absolutely amazing and $100k + systems sound absolutely putrid in terrible rooms. It continues to blow my mind the minutiae that some audiophiles worry about whilst ignoring their rooms, which along with speaker choice has by far the most significant impact on ultimate sound quality. It's a very odd phenomenon that is part of this hobby! 6
tripitaka Posted June 17, 2023 Posted June 17, 2023 51 minutes ago, POV said: My experience on this is that the outcome is entirely dependent on the room and acoustic environment. I have heard $5-10k systems in well suited, well treated rooms sound absolutely amazing and $100k + systems sound absolutely putrid in terrible rooms. It continues to blow my mind the minutiae that some audiophiles worry about whilst ignoring their rooms, which along with speaker choice has by far the most significant impact on ultimate sound quality. It's a very odd phenomenon that is part of this hobby! Tru dat. But the unspoken assumption in my comment was 'all else being equal'. I suspect that dealing with room acoustics is likely a much cheaper pathway to improvement and, as you say, is often under-represented in many hifi discussions
Niktech Posted June 17, 2023 Author Posted June 17, 2023 (edited) 11 hours ago, The Mad Scientist said: I think we're talking at slightly crossed purposes here. I'm not disputing that there are sensory related experiences and preferences we can't measure. You can't measure the taste difference between a Montepulciano and a Shiraz for example. What I'm saying is that people often perceive differences in audio due to changing a component, cable etc. where science and engineering say there can be no perceptible difference. Then we have to look at the psychoacoustic aspects, confirmation bias, expectation bias etc. which is where many refuse to go. Human senses are not reliable in absolute terms. Take the below image, for example. Tiles A and B are different colours, yes? No, their surface colours are exactly the same! How about this one? One dog is blue, the other yellow? Nope, both are exactly the same colour. Back to audio. Some may have seen this video already, but it's a fascinating insight into audio perception and myths. If you want to shortcut to the really confronting audio perception demonstration, skip to Poppy Crum's presentation at 5:27. I firmly believe that in this hobby, a healthy dose of skepticism, and a fundamental distrust of our senses is somewhat essential. I've listened to two different components/cables/tweaks many, many times over the years and convinced myself I could hear differences. Then, when faced with the acid test of level-matched comparisons, when I didn't know which was in use, I couldn't detect any difference. I've wasted a sh!t load of cash on stuff over the years. Interconnects, speaker cables, component upgrades, mains cables, mains conditioners etc. Now, I am guided by science, engineering and measurements. A good acoustic environment provides improvements orders of magnitude greater than any cable ever could. I watched the Poppy Crum segment of the video and I can see how a person could be persuaded/suggested to believe they heard some sort of satanic worship when Stair Way to Heaven was played backwards. I didn’t really hear anything myself- although with the power of suggestion now planted in the mind with the purported backward lyrics put up on the blue screen, and playing it again, I can see how one could possibly be persuaded to make out those words. A quick Google also showed that similar auditory tests in relation to the song had quite mixed results with what participants heard. Rather than an emphasis of the “S” in legislature(s) it sounded to me more like there was more emphasis on “ure” than any S due to the American accent, but I do use that would quite frequently with regard to matters in state and federal legal jurisdiction. The human brain is also conditioned to autocorrect words in sentences that are incorrectly spelt. The brain only requires the first and last letter of a word are in the right place. https://www.livescience.com/18392-reading-jumbled-words.html Edited June 17, 2023 by Niktech 2
POV Posted June 17, 2023 Posted June 17, 2023 5 minutes ago, tripitaka said: Tru dat. But the unspoken assumption in my comment was 'all else being equal'. I suspect that dealing with room acoustics is likely a much cheaper pathway to improvement and, as you say, is often under-represented in many hifi discussions I can think off a particular room I have been in (actually at sterenet members house) and honestly it was so hostile that I seriously, seriously doubt anyone would be able to pick a $5k system from a $100k system. It made me want to put earmuffs on. That same member used to be very, very vocal about fringe tweaks (cables, vibration etc) whilst his actual system sounded absolutely awful...unlistenable to me. 1 3
gemini07 Posted June 17, 2023 Posted June 17, 2023 For what it's worth I recently did a review of the websites of five Australian manufacturers of audio cables regarding what they might have had to say about cable burn in and cable directionality. I thought that if their cables required burn in, they surely would say so, and likewise if their cables needed to be run in a particular direction they would also have stated as much. I am not going to identify the companies because I haven't sought their permission to draw conclusions. However, I have bought from three of them and their cables were all very good (some were also very expensive). Of those three above, only one states that their cables require burn in (of approx 3 months) and must be run in a specified direction. The other two are silent on these issues. Of the other two companies, one is silent on burn in and directionality. The other clearly refutes any improvement in burn in and is silent on directionality. Of course, it may be that some cables are manufactured in such a way that burn in is significant, and also that directionality is built in. However, the single company supporting the directionality / burn in factor makes no mention of why their cables are so mandated. Having owned some of these myself, I found no discernable differences over a period of time, or when I reversed their direction. They were just very good cables. 1
muon* Posted June 17, 2023 Posted June 17, 2023 1 hour ago, rocky500 said: Hi Paul, Yes I take it as just a discussion with most of what I want to do on SNA. There are no tactics, just trying to express some of my own views and what I have found and how I may approach this hobby. I would like to think we are all able to put our views across without to much angst and have a discussion. I really do just treat this as a fun hobby and do not want to try and prove anything to anyone, just want to find what works best for me and may mention it on here for others to see if others might find similar findings and offer some other insights. The last thing I am looking for is conflict and having to try and prove anything, as that is not what its about for me. I seem to think (personal opinion again) that its all audio and the measurements are applicable to all what is involved, including cables. Personally again I think measurements are great for designing products but have yet to progress to being to able to predict what people may prefer, myself included. Personally I have not heard huge differences in cables, but enough times I have heard slight improvements in some cables in my listening, that I will try certain brands out that may be mentioned by others having a positive impact from time to time. It's all part of the fun. I always thought that track being played backwards was pretty lame, as far as sounding like what they suggested.
MLXXX Posted June 17, 2023 Posted June 17, 2023 28 minutes ago, Niktech said: Rather than an emphasis of the “S” in legislature(s) it sounded to me more like there was more emphasis on “ure” than any S due to the American accent, but I do use that would quite frequently with regard to matters in state and federal legal jurisdiction. As I mentioned earlier today, the "s' in question was actually the "s" in the middle of the word (which was competing with a cough), not the "s" at the end (which you have put in brackets). The presenter did not make it particularly clear which "s" she was referring to. 1
Niktech Posted June 17, 2023 Author Posted June 17, 2023 4 minutes ago, MLXXX said: As I mentioned earlier today, the "s' in question was actually the "s" in the middle of the word (which was competing with a cough), not the "s" at the end (which you have put in brackets). The presenter did not make it particularly clear which "s" she was referring to. Thanks, I couldn’t quite make out what they were getting at with that replay with the seemingly forced stop in the middle of the word.
bob_m_54 Posted June 17, 2023 Posted June 17, 2023 5 hours ago, March Audio said: If it were the case that we all percieve sound very differently, then you couldn't devise psychoacoustic codecs such as mp3. If we all perceive sou ds very differently the Floyde Toole subjective speaker research wouldn't have been able to conclude a set rules for speaker design. The subjects preferred the same traits. However, yes I 100% agree with you that perception can be influenced and biased by many factors. Take those biasing influences out of the equation and things start to normalise. I don't believe we do all perceive sounds very differently. But some people believe they hear things that the general populace don't, and that there is no scientific basis for, that's what I'm talking about. I'm probably using the wrong terminology when I say "perceive" though. I was just trying to avoid saying "what people think they hear", because that is generally viewed in a very negative way... Now I've gone an dun it... 1
March Audio Posted June 17, 2023 Posted June 17, 2023 1 minute ago, bob_m_54 said: I don't believe we do all perceive sounds very differently. But some people believe they hear things that the general populace don't, and that there is no scientific basis for, that's what I'm talking about. I'm probably using the wrong terminology when I say "perceive" though. I was just trying to avoid saying "what people think they hear", because that is generally viewed in a very negative way... Now I've gone an dun it... Yeah I think we were talking at cross purposes and I agree with you. They hear differences but it may be due to non acoustic reasons. 1
MLXXX Posted June 17, 2023 Posted June 17, 2023 3 hours ago, Niktech said: Thanks, I couldn’t quite make out what they were getting at with that replay with the seemingly forced stop in the middle of the word. In this case the presenter was apparently so focused on what she knew and was wanting to demonstrate, that she apparently presumed everyone else could only possibly have been been listening for the "s" she wished to demonstrate and not the other "s". (It took me a while to work out what she had been trying to demonstrate. It would have helped if she'd explained how the two versions differed.) 1
klm Posted June 17, 2023 Posted June 17, 2023 1 hour ago, bob_m_54 said: I don't believe we do all perceive sounds very differently. But some people believe they hear things that the general populace don't, and that there is no scientific basis for, that's what I'm talking about. I'm probably using the wrong terminology when I say "perceive" though. I was just trying to avoid saying "what people think they hear", because that is generally viewed in a very negative way... Now I've gone an dun it... Inadvertently, you have absolutely made the differentiations as to what some of us hear, you hear sounds along with others and some of us hear music. Your honour, I rest my case. 1
aussievintage Posted June 17, 2023 Posted June 17, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, klm said: Inadvertently, you have absolutely made the differentiations as to what some of us hear, you hear sounds along with others and some of us hear music. Your honour, I rest my case. If you are hearing music with no sound, then you might have a problem... Edited June 17, 2023 by aussievintage 1 2
Steffen Posted June 17, 2023 Posted June 17, 2023 38 minutes ago, aussievintage said: If you are hearing music with no sound, then you might have a problem... Or have the chops to become a great musician.
bob_m_54 Posted June 17, 2023 Posted June 17, 2023 13 hours ago, klm said: Inadvertently, you have absolutely made the differentiations as to what some of us hear, you hear sounds along with others and some of us hear music. Your honour, I rest my case. You missed the point by a mile.. And no need to call me "your Honor" 2 1
POV Posted June 17, 2023 Posted June 17, 2023 (edited) 13 hours ago, klm said: Inadvertently, you have absolutely made the differentiations as to what some of us hear, you hear sounds along with others and some of us hear music. Your honour, I rest my case. I suspect this is a bit of a throwaway comment here…but to me this type of comment comes across as the audiophile version of the quintessential teenage ‘whatever’ when presented with a logical argument. Personally I find the implication that because I (and others) take an interest in the science of audio reproduction that we are somehow lesser audiophiles a bit offensive and it simply feeds the binary, partisan flavour these threads take on. Roon tells me that I spend 40-50 hours a week listening to music…and I’m pretty certain that I hear music for all of that time. That I listen differently, or for different things than you and others doesn’t make me any less entitled to enjoy this hobby or discuss the experience from my point of view. Edited June 17, 2023 by POV 3 1
Satanica Posted June 18, 2023 Posted June 18, 2023 (edited) 21 hours ago, rocky500 said: Hi Paul, Yes I take it as just a discussion with most of what I want to do on SNA. There are no tactics, just trying to express some of my own views and what I have found and how I may approach this hobby. I would like to think we are all able to put our views across without to much angst and have a discussion. I really do just treat this as a fun hobby and do not want to try and prove anything to anyone, just want to find what works best for me and may mention it on here for others to see if others might find similar findings and offer some other insights. The last thing I am looking for is conflict and having to try and prove anything, as that is not what its about for me. I seem to think (personal opinion again) that its all audio and the measurements are applicable to all what is involved, including cables. Personally again I think measurements are great for designing products but have yet to progress to being to able to predict what people may prefer, myself included. Personally I have not heard huge differences in cables, but enough times I have heard slight improvements in some cables in my listening, that I will try certain brands out that may be mentioned by others having a positive impact from time to time. It's all part of the fun. Hi, if you treat this as just a fun hobby, then why do you seem to spend such a considerable about of time here in the Great Debate Section? You seem to be a regular contributor and I really don't understand how this could be fun for you. Are you consciously or do you think subconsciously you're trying to convince others to give up spending time here and contributing because that would help them to have more fun? If so, perhaps review this practice. So no, I'm not convinced this is just a fun hobby for you, I think you're far more invested than that. There are audiophiles who have a strong scientific approach to audio reproduction and that's not going to change. And, I think that (slowly) this is increasing and will continue to (slowly) increase in the future. But times are a changin. Edited June 18, 2023 by Satanica 1
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