Raffinator Posted June 11, 2023 Posted June 11, 2023 Hi all, I already have a great 2 channel amp that has HT bypass. I’m looking for an AVR that has all the latest processing formats and preferably Dirac as an option, but is a lower spec amp as I don’t need the power. Essentially I’m after the cheapest AVR that can give me the best AV pre experience, and enough channels to do a 5.1 setup. Was looking at the new Sony, But it doesn’t have pre outs Marantz Cinema 70 is one option. It doesn’t have Dirac - I’d have to go to Cinema 50 for this, which adds to the cost. Open to suggestions.
hopefullguy Posted June 11, 2023 Posted June 11, 2023 only one choice with dirac thats cheap https://www.spacehifi.com.au/audio/av-receivers/onkyo-tx-rz50-av-receiver but can be hit and miss from many readings.
Raffinator Posted June 12, 2023 Author Posted June 12, 2023 16 hours ago, hopefullguy said: only one choice with dirac thats cheap https://www.spacehifi.com.au/audio/av-receivers/onkyo-tx-rz50-av-receiver but can be hit and miss from many readings. Yes - this is one on my list. Starting to get discounted. 2
betty boop Posted June 12, 2023 Posted June 12, 2023 20 hours ago, John Raffin said: I’m looking for an AVR that has all the latest processing formats and preferably Dirac as an option, but is a lower spec amp as I don’t need the power. Essentially I’m after the cheapest AVR that can give me the best AV pre experience, and enough channels to do a 5.1 setup. unfortunately going down in denon / marantz range will not only go for lower quality power implementations but also on the pre side, things like processing, dacs, power supplies all drop off as less you spend... given you have something decent on the 2ch side no doubt sound quality is of importance then id suggest indeed as per your post below go something like the cinema 50.. you do still need to drive all the rest of the channels and the 2ch amp you have will take some load off so the rest can do a pretty good job 20 hours ago, John Raffin said: Marantz Cinema 70 is one option. It doesn’t have Dirac - I’d have to go to Cinema 50 for this, which adds to the cost. Open to suggestions.
twwen2 Posted June 14, 2023 Posted June 14, 2023 There really is a gap in the AVR market for well featured but affordable AV preamp/processors. My requirements are similar - I just want HDMI 2.1, Dirac Live and at least 5.1 RCA pre-outs. Unfortunately this doesn't seem to exist - the only dedicated AV pre/pros are top of the range units that retail for ~$10K, and that's way too much to spend on gear that will be obsolete in 3-5 years as HDMI and room correction technologies move on. At the lower end of the AVR market you don't get any pre-outs or Dirac Live, then as those features come into play at about the $2K price point you're starting to pay for better power output stages which I don't want or need. 2
betty boop Posted June 14, 2023 Posted June 14, 2023 2 minutes ago, twwen2 said: At the lower end of the AVR market you don't get any pre-outs or Dirac Live, then as those features come into play at about the $2K price point you're starting to pay for better power output stages which I don't want or need. when see how much Dirac subscription costs .. is it any wonder. Folks with the $10k processors will see bailing at the cost … it’s a money tree too.. buy one, then another … and another
twwen2 Posted June 14, 2023 Posted June 14, 2023 3 minutes ago, betty boop said: when see how much Dirac subscription costs .. is it any wonder. Folks with the $10k processors will see bailing at the cost … it’s a money tree too.. buy one, then another … and another Honestly I'd probably settle for any decent room correction if the other boxes were ticked and the price was reasonable.
betty boop Posted June 14, 2023 Posted June 14, 2023 (edited) 53 minutes ago, twwen2 said: Honestly I'd probably settle for any decent room correction if the other boxes were ticked and the price was reasonable. Any of marantz av7702mk2, av8802a have audyssey av8805/a gets the app that’s pretty good it’s what I use and does the job, will explore Dirac but yeah not cheap and have to buy mic etc all adds up as will be 3 modules I buy Edited June 14, 2023 by betty boop
twwen2 Posted June 14, 2023 Posted June 14, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, betty boop said: Any of marantz av7702mk2, av8802a have audyssey av8805/a gets the app that’s pretty good it’s what I use and does the job, will explore Dirac but yeah not cheap and have to buy mic etc all adds up as will be 3 modules I buy Both of those models are very expensive ($4K and $7K respectively), and neither supports HDMI 2.1 with 4K @ 120Hz. And no Dirac as you say. Kinda proves my point right there - these were nearly flagship devices only a couple of years ago and are now obsolete by today's standards. The product strategy of the AV market makes no sense for us consumers - we should be able to buy cheap pre-pros with the latest specs every 3-5 years while retaining separate multi-channel power amps that will last 20+ years. @John Raffin I think at the moment our best option would be the Onkyo TX-RZ50 which is discounted to $2K at most/all retailers until the end of June. Has Dirac Live out of the box and sufficient pre-outs. Edited June 14, 2023 by twwen2 3
betty boop Posted June 14, 2023 Posted June 14, 2023 (edited) 42 minutes ago, twwen2 said: Both of those models are very expensive ($4K and $7K respectively), and neither supports HDMI 2.1 with 4K @ 120Hz. I wasn’t talking new … if want hdmi2.1 4k120 the av8805a 100% supports that 8k even my 2nd hand av8805a sold well below $7k . Av7702mk2 and av8802a will do 4kuhd etc just not 4k 120 only because it wasn’t out then when it was released their latest 7&8 series processors and yeah they do come with that as expected 42 minutes ago, twwen2 said: And no Dirac as you say. Kinda proves my point right there - these were nearly flagship devices only a couple of years ago and are now obsolete by today's standards. The product strategy of the AV market makes no sense for us consumers - we should be able to buy cheap pre-pros with the latest specs every 3-5 years while retaining separate multi-channel power amps that will last 20+ years. Dirac suit and mic etc is lots of money. would folks spend that on latest 7 and 8 series marantz processors when comes with the audyssey app which is pretty good? Some folks won’t even buy the $30 app in many cases even though best thing they could do. cheap and pre pros is a contradiction because folks compare them to cheap avrs that them selves get more expensive as go up the range ….denon marantz make avrs with pre amp mode on flagships because some might use as pre amps …the pre pros are meant to be next level. Just because you take a cheap avr and whack lowest level Dirac doesn’t change its still a cheap avr and has cheapest Dacs, analog stages power supplies etc all what costs more as go up the range. You won’t find likes of denon / marantz also just taking amp stage out of avr to make a pre pro… it’s done ground up to be a step up from the avrs the idea with pre pros you don’t actually have to buy every few years … why marantz have A models…the av8805 recover there A upgrade did all from hdmi2.1 and 4kuhd I just wanted the flagship that goes further and costs more as expected. Just like denon flagship pre I bought could keep 8-9 years and received hardware and software updates … but yeah not all makers do this and even marantz only do on flagship avr and pre pro…. Edited June 14, 2023 by betty boop
Hi-Fi Whipped Posted June 14, 2023 Posted June 14, 2023 2 hours ago, twwen2 said: There really is a gap in the AVR market for well featured but affordable AV preamp/processors. My requirements are similar - I just want HDMI 2.1, Dirac Live and at least 5.1 RCA pre-outs. Unfortunately this doesn't seem to exist - the only dedicated AV pre/pros are top of the range units that retail for ~$10K, and that's way too much to spend on gear that will be obsolete in 3-5 years as HDMI and room correction technologies move on. At the lower end of the AVR market you don't get any pre-outs or Dirac Live, then as those features come into play at about the $2K price point you're starting to pay for better power output stages which I don't want or need. Agree that a sub $5k pre/pro with Dirac Live and Bass Control would be nice, it’s essentially where my requirements and budget is atm. The Nad 758v3i I’m currently using does a decent job of making my viewing enjoyable feeding into my Elektra Amp for the money with Dirac, but I like most people here are on the upgrade trail. Agree the onkyo is tempting for the money but I’d probably choose the Pioneer variant but it’s purely an aesthetic decision. ex demo sub $2k Pioneer here: https://www.spacehifi.com.au/clearance/ex-display-pioneer-vsx-lx505-av-receiver?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIn4fO5eXB_wIVCbSWCh2F-A00EAQYASABEgLTt_D_BwE 1
twwen2 Posted June 14, 2023 Posted June 14, 2023 30 minutes ago, Hi-Fi Whipped said: ex demo sub $2k Pioneer here: https://www.spacehifi.com.au/clearance/ex-display-pioneer-vsx-lx505-av-receiver?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIn4fO5eXB_wIVCbSWCh2F-A00EAQYASABEgLTt_D_BwE I believe the LX505 is the same platform as the Onkyo RZ50, and is also discounted currently to around $2K: https://www.rio.com.au/product/pioneer-vsx-lx505-elite-9-2-channel-av-receiver-pioneer/ I just wish they'd take something like the LX505/RZ50, remove the power output stage and sell it for $500 less. That'd be an excellent value proposition - HDMI 2.1, Dirac Live and full pre-outs for around $1500. One can dream. 2
Guest Posted June 14, 2023 Posted June 14, 2023 8 hours ago, twwen2 said: There really is a gap in the AVR market for well featured but affordable AV preamp/processors. People looking for AV pre processors tend to be looking at the high and very high end. Emotive still produces an affordable processor, but no local presence https://emotiva.com/collections/processors/products/basx-mc1-13-2-channel-dolby-atmos-dts-x-cinema-processor
twwen2 Posted June 14, 2023 Posted June 14, 2023 25 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said: Emotive still produces an affordable processor, but no local presence https://emotiva.com/collections/processors/products/basx-mc1-13-2-channel-dolby-atmos-dts-x-cinema-processor As soon as they update it to HDMI 2.1 it'll go to the top of my shortlist.
dlaloum Posted June 15, 2023 Posted June 15, 2023 Starting from a 5.1 system, and needing a new AVR, about 18 months ago, my shortlist was Anthem, Denon and Onkyo(/integra/pioneer) Having had some negative experiences with Audyssey, I wanted to try Dirac, which made the Onkyo family the best bet. My speakers are a somewhat difficult load (dropping down to 1.6 ohm) - so I looked at all the models then available with some doubt... the power amps tend to have undersized power supplies for those who need high current... But I do have external power amps, so really I only needed the AVR to run surround and height... I looked at the Onkyo RZ50, Integra DRX 3.4 and 5.4, Pioneer LX505, took the NR7100 and LX305 off my shortlist due to a lack of pre-outs. In the end I got a great deal on the Integra DRX 3.4 - which I now use as the center of a 5.1.4 setup. 2 x Power amps drive the front L/C/R and the rest is driven by the AVR - my system is sounding better than it ever has. At the time, the 3.4 was about $400 cheaper than the RZ50... current situation may be different - I think the Integra is not seeing much discounting whereas there are bargains out there on the Pioneer and Onkyo versions .... so it definitely pays to shop around. 1
dlaloum Posted June 20, 2023 Posted June 20, 2023 On 14/06/2023 at 1:20 PM, Hi-Fi Whipped said: Agree that a sub $5k pre/pro with Dirac Live and Bass Control would be nice, it’s essentially where my requirements and budget is atm. The current Onkyo flagship (RZ70 / 8.4 / LX805) - is $5000, has Dirac Live, and the option to purchase a DLBC licence... If you can negotiate a 10% discount from your retailer, that should bring it to $5000 including DLBC... They make very good prepro's... And from the look of it (reviews and measurements are still not out there!) - the amps on that AVR should be pretty good too. House of Onkyo has been sitting on the RZ90 prepro for over a year now.... hopefully they will release it soon. For the last couple of generations their prepro's were cheaper than the equivalent AVR... but pricing on the flagship models is anyones guess, as they have never been announced let alone released. 1
Hi-Fi Whipped Posted June 20, 2023 Posted June 20, 2023 2 hours ago, dlaloum said: The current Onkyo flagship (RZ70 / 8.4 / LX805) - is $5000, has Dirac Live, and the option to purchase a DLBC licence... If you can negotiate a 10% discount from your retailer, that should bring it to $5000 including DLBC... They make very good prepro's... And from the look of it (reviews and measurements are still not out there!) - the amps on that AVR should be pretty good too. House of Onkyo has been sitting on the RZ90 prepro for over a year now.... hopefully they will release it soon. For the last couple of generations their prepro's were cheaper than the equivalent AVR... but pricing on the flagship models is anyones guess, as they have never been announced let alone released. If the pricing of the Onkyo RZ50 and Pio sibling is anything to go by we could possibly assume that the higher end models could see some decent discounting if they don't move as quick as they would like. 1
dlaloum Posted June 26, 2023 Posted June 26, 2023 On 20/06/2023 at 4:30 PM, Hi-Fi Whipped said: If the pricing of the Onkyo RZ50 and Pio sibling is anything to go by we could possibly assume that the higher end models could see some decent discounting if they don't move as quick as they would like. I am hoping... and waiting for any ART announcements! - a discounted RZ70 or 8.4 with ART would very happily find a spot in my setup! 1
roh008 Posted July 10, 2023 Posted July 10, 2023 Interesting commentary - I'm in a position where I'm needing to upgrade my AV side to 4K handling (yes I know - behind the times). I'm also wanting room correction for all sources too, and have been reading the good things about Dirac Live/ART/DLBC If I look at my 2Ch set up with amps/dacs/streamers and I reflect on my wish to have the ability for all my sources to have room processing for all sources before amplification, and if one is open minded about their 2Ch audio and not leaning on the 'purist' within them, but the pragmatist This opens up the high-end pre-pro ($12K+ roughly) and what it actually can offer us: - very good DAC plus the implementation of it (equalling $3-4k+) standalone according to those who have both and reflecting on their findings. - DIRAC Live ART/DLBC etc. (value/price point entry level mini-DSP) let's say $1k value - Network streamer capability and implementation (ie how it sounds) comparable to Aires G1 etc. something similar ($3-4k) - very capable pre-amp ($2k?) - 4K handling etc. ($1-2k?) So - $10k+ of value in one-box What are peoples thoughts on that type of break-down? Personally scares me $12k on a one box of electronics - but it's compelling too for a tidy solution. Yes, I understand for those that want to swap things out etc, this is not an option, but what about for those that don't - what am I missing, or more importantly, can I do it cheaper with the same/better sound?
Hi-Fi Whipped Posted July 10, 2023 Posted July 10, 2023 34 minutes ago, roh008 said: Interesting commentary - I'm in a position where I'm needing to upgrade my AV side to 4K handling (yes I know - behind the times). I'm also wanting room correction for all sources too, and have been reading the good things about Dirac Live/ART/DLBC If I look at my 2Ch set up with amps/dacs/streamers and I reflect on my wish to have the ability for all my sources to have room processing for all sources before amplification, and if one is open minded about their 2Ch audio and not leaning on the 'purist' within them, but the pragmatist This opens up the high-end pre-pro ($12K+ roughly) and what it actually can offer us: - very good DAC plus the implementation of it (equalling $3-4k+) standalone according to those who have both and reflecting on their findings. - DIRAC Live ART/DLBC etc. (value/price point entry level mini-DSP) let's say $1k value - Network streamer capability and implementation (ie how it sounds) comparable to Aires G1 etc. something similar ($3-4k) - very capable pre-amp ($2k?) - 4K handling etc. ($1-2k?) So - $10k+ of value in one-box What are peoples thoughts on that type of break-down? Personally scares me $12k on a one box of electronics - but it's compelling too for a tidy solution. Yes, I understand for those that want to swap things out etc, this is not an option, but what about for those that don't - what am I missing, or more importantly, can I do it cheaper with the same/better sound? This would be worth a read for you re AV processors replacing 2ch preamps to access Dirac live/bass control.
roh008 Posted July 10, 2023 Posted July 10, 2023 On 14/06/2023 at 10:55 AM, twwen2 said: that's way too much to spend on gear that will be obsolete in 3-5 years as HDMI and room correction technologies This depends on where you place value - I've stopped placing value on 8K 'proof' for example technology (for my next AV purchase), I would place higher bitrate 4K content higher up. Only because of my distance between TV/Projector is outside the benefit of 8K, but my ability to appreciate high bitrate content is greater (think netflix 4k vs Bluray 4k). Is it worth investing in 120fps for tv/movies - well 99% of content is not 60FPS yet so again for me, not that worth it. If you game then 4k/120fps might be of importance.
betty boop Posted July 10, 2023 Posted July 10, 2023 7 minutes ago, roh008 said: This depends on where you place value - I've stopped placing value on 8K 'proof' for example technology (for my next AV purchase), I would place higher bitrate 4K content higher up. Only because of my distance between TV/Projector is outside the benefit of 8K, but my ability to appreciate high bitrate content is greater (think netflix 4k vs Bluray 4k). Is it worth investing in 120fps for tv/movies - well 99% of content is not 60FPS yet so again for me, not that worth it. If you game then 4k/120fps might be of importance. good brands keep supporting you at least for 1 - 2 cycles... my original denon flagship pre took me through 8-9 years ...whereas with AVRS they were getting updated almost every year. my flagship unit kept going as kept getting manufacturer updates in hardware and software. my last two marantz units also got updates with hdmi, processing and such. good brands keep supporting their products.. there does come a point where you need to move on from base platform.. but that doesnt have to be year upon year...
dlaloum Posted July 10, 2023 Posted July 10, 2023 I would take a look at the Denon and Marantz flagships (AVR & AVP respectively) - but also the Onkyo RZ70 / Integra DRX 8.4 / Pioneer LX805 The Onkyo "family" are more channel constrained, but otherwise provide everything required at a lower price point, with Dirac Live, and optional DLBC... and possibly DL-ART at some point in the future... 2
Raffinator Posted July 15, 2023 Author Posted July 15, 2023 Can something like this MiniDSP product come into consideration? https://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/flex-ht The main issue is only having one eARC HDMI input. I still run an Oppo, so maybe would have to go Oppo —> TV —> MiniDSP —> amps and sub.
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