Tulsi Patel Posted June 27, 2023 Posted June 27, 2023 Why don't Aussie speaker manufacturers publish any measurements. Krix, Richter, Adelaide , Osborne speakers none of them publish measurements. As an example, Kef R3 metas are widely measured and objectively considered good on ASR and over at Erin's Audio Corner. Surely, it makes marketing sense (if nothing else) for Aussie manufacturers to measure or provide speakers to Amir or Erin to get them objectively measured. Thoughts 4 1
Jehuty Posted June 27, 2023 Posted June 27, 2023 (edited) AFAIK, Lenehan Audio does and they are fantastic. Edit: Didn't see about ASR. Their opinion means nothing for me and not sure if their crowd are truly interested in high end stuff. Edited June 27, 2023 by Jehuty 3
Satanica Posted June 27, 2023 Posted June 27, 2023 On 27/06/2023 at 12:29 PM, Tulsi Patel said: Surely, it makes marketing sense (if nothing else) for Aussie manufacturers to measure or provide speakers to Amir or Erin to get them objectively measured. Expand Only if the news is good. Anyway here is an Aussie manufacturer on Erin's Audio Corner: https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/march_audio_sointuva/ 2
RoHo Posted June 29, 2023 Posted June 29, 2023 The large majority of speaker manufacturers worldwide don't publish comprehensive measurements. It's not just an Australian thing. Ever seen polar measurements from B&W, Tannoy, Wilson etc etc? KEF seem to be an exception. 2
Tulsi Patel Posted June 30, 2023 Author Posted June 30, 2023 On 29/06/2023 at 12:46 AM, RoHo said: The large majority of speaker manufacturers worldwide don't publish comprehensive measurements. It's not just an Australian thing. Ever seen polar measurements from B&W, Tannoy, Wilson etc etc? KEF seem to be an exception. Expand harman - revel, jbl do. Toole from Harman essentially came up with measurements. also, newer manufacturers like Ascend, Perlisten publish measurements. the larger point im trying to make is, if Krix or Richter were to publish measurements, they could have better sales ? make a good case for Aussies to spend on their speakers instead of foreign brands. id rather buy a Richter than a wharfdale Linton but Lintons got great measurements and i dont know about Richters 1 1
rantan Posted June 30, 2023 Posted June 30, 2023 On 30/06/2023 at 5:36 AM, Tulsi Patel said: id rather buy a Richter than a wharfdale Linton but Lintons got great measurements and i dont know about Richters Expand I would buy the Richters because they sound far better than the vastly over hyped Lintons. As far as measurements go there are plenty on the website. Have a look here: https://richter.com.au/shop/loudspeaker/legend-series-6/wizard-s6-floor-standing-speakers/
Satanica Posted June 30, 2023 Posted June 30, 2023 (edited) On 30/06/2023 at 5:58 AM, rantan said: I would buy the Richters because they sound far better than the vastly over hyped Lintons. As far as measurements go there are plenty on the website. Have a look here: https://richter.com.au/shop/loudspeaker/legend-series-6/wizard-s6-floor-standing-speakers/ Expand These measurements tell next to nothing. What the OP was suggesting is the kind of measurements found on "ASR and over at Erin's Audio Corner". Here's the same link as I posted before as an example: https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/march_audio_sointuva/ Edited June 30, 2023 by Satanica 3
rantan Posted June 30, 2023 Posted June 30, 2023 On 30/06/2023 at 6:16 AM, Satanica said: These measurements tell next to nothing. Expand Fair enough. However it is probably what most people use (in conjunction with listening ), as flawed as that may be. I would venture to say that your average LInton/Wizard buyer would not understand the above measurements anyway, despite their importance. 1
Keith_W Posted June 30, 2023 Posted June 30, 2023 SGR, Duntech, and Kyron Audio have done extensive measurements. I know, because I have spoken to the designers. I know that SGR and Kyron have hired anechoic chambers to help tune their speakers. As to why they don't publish their measurements, I honestly don't know. You are right, they should. I also know that Paul from Red Spade has extensively measured his speakers (he does them quasi-anechoically by elevating the speakers on a stand outdoors), but the problem is that they are all over his website in a haphazard way. As previously mentioned, March Audio has been favourably reviewed by Erin. I don't know how Alan does his measurements, since I have never met him, nor spoken to him (nor even heard his speakers), but I would be surprised if he managed to get them looking so perfect if he didn't do any. As usual, be wary of anybody who says that x sounds better than y. Statements like these need to be qualified by: what type of music, what is your taste in sound, where did you hear them, were they set up properly, and so on. I have heard well regarded speakers sound both amazing and terrible in different setups. A good example is a certain speaker from the Harman group in an SNA show a few years ago. I know they are amazing, but they were driven so loud that both amps and speakers were distorting. I had to run out of that room to protect my ears. 5
Satanica Posted June 30, 2023 Posted June 30, 2023 (edited) On 30/06/2023 at 6:26 AM, rantan said: Fair enough. However it is probably what most people use (in conjunction with listening ), as flawed as that may be. I would venture to say that your average LInton/Wizard buyer would not understand the above measurements anyway, despite their importance. Expand Sure, and that leaves the average buyer at a great disadvantage. Also, I think the vast majority of HiFi salesman wouldn't understand them either, to somehow relay that information to potential buyers. The OP asked a specific question. I can only guess most (Australian) manufacturers don't have the facilities to do these extensive measurements because they require an anachoic chamber and/or Klippel near-field-scanner, the latter is probably better unless I'm mistaken. And if (Australian) manufacturers did obtain extensive measurements such as these, they may not want to publish them for commercial reasons. Edited June 30, 2023 by Satanica 1
Satanica Posted June 30, 2023 Posted June 30, 2023 On 30/06/2023 at 6:28 AM, Keith_W said: SGR, Duntech, and Kyron Audio have done extensive measurements. I know, because I have spoken to the designers. I know that SGR and Kyron have hired anechoic chambers to help tune their speakers. As to why they don't publish their measurements, I honestly don't know. You are right, they should. I also know that Paul from Red Spade has extensively measured his speakers (he does them quasi-anechoically by elevating the speakers on a stand outdoors), but the problem is that they are all over his website in a haphazard way. As previously mentioned, March Audio has been favourably reviewed by Erin. I don't know how Alan does his measurements, since I have never met him, nor spoken to him (nor even heard his speakers), but I would be surprised if he managed to get them looking so perfect if he didn't do any. As usual, be wary of anybody who says that x sounds better than y. Statements like these need to be qualified by: what type of music, what is your taste in sound, where did you hear them, were they set up properly, and so on. I have heard well regarded speakers sound both amazing and terrible in different setups. A good example is a certain speaker from the Harman group in an SNA show a few years ago. I know they are amazing, but they were driven so loud that both amps and speakers were distorting. I had to run out of that room to protect my ears. Expand Unless I'm mistaken Alan from @March Audio worked with Erin from Erin's Audio corner on these March Audio Sointuva Bookshelf Speakers utilising Erin's Klippel near field scanner.
Keith_W Posted June 30, 2023 Posted June 30, 2023 On 30/06/2023 at 6:42 AM, Satanica said: Unless I'm mistaken Alan from @March Audio worked with Erin from Erin's Audio corner on these March Audio Sointuva Bookshelf Speakers utilising Erin's Klippel near field scanner. Expand I wasn't aware of that. That might be a bit difficult sending speakers to the USA, reiterating, sending them back, and so on. Hmm, maybe he would like to comment. @March Audio?
March Audio Posted June 30, 2023 Posted June 30, 2023 (edited) On 30/06/2023 at 9:06 AM, Keith_W said: I wasn't aware of that. That might be a bit difficult sending speakers to the USA, reiterating, sending them back, and so on. Hmm, maybe he would like to comment. @March Audio? Expand We perform extensive measurements on our speakers. You can't design without doing so. Our measurements are initially free field - literally . 8m off the ground and away from reflective structures. We use a turntable to get full 360 degree spinorama measurements. The Sointuva speaker was sent to Erin for measurement on his Klippel, but we didn't work together on the design. His Klippel wasn't used for development. His measurements concurred very closely with ours. An update for the Soin⁷tuva is currently on test in the US at another Klippel facility. Our new Ukkonen floorstander will be on its way there soon. The data from our measurements is excellent quality, but the Klippel is slightly better resolution, so is used for confirmation and if necessary final minor tweaks to the design. We get the data back here for analysis the next day and tweaks to XOs can be made over in the US if necessary, so there is no need to keep sending speakers back and forth. Sointuva on Klippel test. Edited June 30, 2023 by March Audio 13
Stereotech Posted July 3, 2023 Posted July 3, 2023 On 30/06/2023 at 5:36 AM, Tulsi Patel said: harman - revel, jbl do. Toole from Harman essentially came up with measurements. also, newer manufacturers like Ascend, Perlisten publish measurements. the larger point im trying to make is, if Krix or Richter were to publish measurements, they could have better sales ? make a good case for Aussies to spend on their speakers instead of foreign brands. id rather buy a Richter than a wharfdale Linton but Lintons got great measurements and i dont know about Richters Expand Mmm. I doubt either measure poorly. Both are designed by seasoned loudspeaker design professionals with many many years experience. I can think of a couple of stores that have both on the floor. Drop in, listen and decide which you prefer based on what actually matters - what you hear, what you enjoy. As a part time loudspeaker designer over many years I can assure you that 2 speakers that measure similarly can offer very different listening experiences in the flesh. 1
March Audio Posted July 3, 2023 Posted July 3, 2023 (edited) On 03/07/2023 at 12:06 AM, Stereotech said: As a part time loudspeaker designer over many years I can assure you that 2 speakers that measure similarly can offer very different listening experiences in the flesh Expand It depends what you mean by "measure similarly". If you are referring to a very limited set of measurements, ie on axis frequency response, then yes. However when you are talking about a full set of spinorama measurements, then no. The more similar these are, the more the sound starts to converge. However it is highly unlikely that two speakers with different drivers and dimensions will actually measure similar. Edited July 3, 2023 by March Audio 4
Stereotech Posted July 3, 2023 Posted July 3, 2023 On 03/07/2023 at 12:19 AM, March Audio said: It depends what you mean by "measure similarly". If you are referring to a very limited set of measuremements, ie on axis frequency response, then yes. However when you are talking about a full set of spinorama measurements, then no. The more similR these are, the more the sound starts to converge. However it is highly unlikely that two speakers with different drivers and dimensions will actually measure similar. Expand Similarly I suppose in the sense of what Stereophile offer in their reviews. The kind of measurements most buyers of equipment get to see. And by similar I mean similar, not exactly the same (not that two speakers will ever measure exactly the same including most 'pairs' from most manufacturers). Like many things in life, loudspeakers and the way they sound is a very personal choice/preference. Seeing them in the flesh, appreciating they way they look and sound is (for me at least) the best way to decide which one is for me or whether either of them are what I am looking for. Measurements are a guide to those experienced in reading and then listening but I suspect for most casual buyers of equipment mean less than plonking yourself down in front of them with a familiar piece of music and listening. Ultimately that's what they are for after all. Just my opinion, for me and for some others, I realise many, particularly some readers of ASR adjudicate on audio gear based purely on lines on a page. For me measurement is a tool to get to the result I want to hear, not a decider on whether to buy speaker A or speaker B 1
March Audio Posted July 3, 2023 Posted July 3, 2023 (edited) On 03/07/2023 at 1:38 AM, Stereotech said: Similarly I suppose in the sense of what Stereophile offer in their reviews. The kind of measurements most buyers of equipment get to see. And by similar I mean similar, not exactly the same (not that two speakers will ever measure exactly the same including most 'pairs' from most manufacturers). Expand Unfortunately Stereophile measurements are also pretty limited. On 03/07/2023 at 1:38 AM, Stereotech said: Like many things in life, loudspeakers and the way they sound is a very personal choice/preference. Seeing them in the flesh, appreciating they way they look and sound is (for me at least) the best way to decide which one is for me or whether either of them are what I am looking for. Expand Well yes, there are many things that impact decisions beyond sound, and appearance is a perfectly reasonable factor to consider. On 03/07/2023 at 1:38 AM, Stereotech said: Measurements are a guide to those experienced in reading and then listening but I suspect for most casual buyers of equipment mean less than plonking yourself down in front of them with a familiar piece of music and listening. Ultimately that's what they are for after all. Expand I wouldnt expect most consumers to understand the subtleties of data like shown below, or its relationship to perceived sound. However, there is a great website that puts the data into digestible terms. Erins Audio Corner https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/ Its the only measurement site providing genuinely useful speaker measurements and interpretation. There are others, but........... The Floyd Toole work clearly demonstrated the relationship between subjective preference and measurements. On 03/07/2023 at 1:38 AM, Stereotech said: For me measurement is a tool to get to the result I want to hear, not a decider on whether to buy speaker A or speaker B Expand So why not a tool to help decide on what to buy? Edited July 3, 2023 by March Audio 3
Keith_W Posted July 3, 2023 Posted July 3, 2023 Why do you send your speakers to the USA for measurement on a Klippel, @March Audio? Are there no Klippels in Australia? I ask, because I am interested in getting my speakers measured on a Klippel.
RoHo Posted July 3, 2023 Posted July 3, 2023 On 30/06/2023 at 5:36 AM, Tulsi Patel said: harman - revel, jbl do. Toole from Harman essentially came up with measurements. also, newer manufacturers like Ascend, Perlisten publish measurements. the larger point im trying to make is, if Krix or Richter were to publish measurements, they could have better sales ? make a good case for Aussies to spend on their speakers instead of foreign brands. id rather buy a Richter than a wharfdale Linton but Lintons got great measurements and i dont know about Richters Expand If speaker manufacturers thought they could improve sales by publishing extensive measurements then they would do just that. They all want to increase sales, obviously. A small proportion of consumers appreciate the measurements, the majority don't. The manufacturers run the risk of confusing the great unwashed and also exposing themselves to potential negative publicity. It is a business decision, just from a different perspective to yours 1
March Audio Posted July 3, 2023 Posted July 3, 2023 On 03/07/2023 at 2:48 AM, Keith_W said: Why do you send your speakers to the USA for measurement on a Klippel, @March Audio? Are there no Klippels in Australia? I ask, because I am interested in getting my speakers measured on a Klippel. Expand None for hire that I'm aware of.
March Audio Posted July 3, 2023 Posted July 3, 2023 (edited) On 03/07/2023 at 2:48 AM, RoHo said: If speaker manufacturers thought they could improve sales by publishing extensive measurements then they would do just that. They all want to increase sales, obviously. A small proportion of consumers appreciate the measurements, the majority don't. The manufacturers run the risk of confusing the great unwashed and also exposing themselves to potential negative publicity. It is a business decision, just from a different perspective to yours Expand There are many reasons that manufacturers may not want to publish measurements. A major one being the results may not be what they want to see or advertise Edited July 3, 2023 by March Audio 2
Hydrology Posted July 3, 2023 Posted July 3, 2023 On 30/06/2023 at 5:36 AM, Tulsi Patel said: if Krix or Richter were to publish measurements, they could have better sales ? make a good case for Aussies to spend on their speakers instead of foreign brands. Expand If you're buying a speaker solely on measurements, you're doing it wrong. What makes you think these brands aren't exceeding sales expectations? What makes you think those that do publish measurements aren't embellishing? There was a time when smoking was considered good for your health... While not my cup of tea sonically, Krix are killing it on a global scale, particularly in theatre. Some of the most enjoyable speakers I've ever heard were almost a non-starter because of reading too much into specifications. 2
March Audio Posted July 3, 2023 Posted July 3, 2023 (edited) On 03/07/2023 at 4:00 AM, Hydrology said: If you're buying a speaker solely on measurements, you're doing it wrong. Expand I dont think that is what he is suggesting, nor that is what anyone is doing. However good measurements and good sound are most certainly not mutually exclusive. Quite the opposite in fact. The Floyd Toole research clearly demonstrates the link between measurements and preferred subjective sound. On 03/07/2023 at 4:00 AM, Hydrology said: Some of the most enjoyable speakers I've ever heard were almost a non-starter because of reading too much into specifications. Expand The basic specs you see published are indeed useless for interpreting what a speaker will sound like. You require significant data from spinorama measurements. Dont throw the baby out with the bath water. Edited July 3, 2023 by March Audio 5
Satanica Posted July 3, 2023 Posted July 3, 2023 (edited) On 03/07/2023 at 4:00 AM, Hydrology said: If you're buying a speaker solely on measurements, you're doing it wrong. What makes you think these brands aren't exceeding sales expectations? What makes you think those that do publish measurements aren't embellishing? Expand Well that's where ASR and/or Erin's Audio Corner come in. As far as manufacturers doing some embellishment, well that seems easy to do when one does't have elaborate measurements to back up one's marketing blurbs. On 03/07/2023 at 4:00 AM, Hydrology said: Some of the most enjoyable speakers I've ever heard were almost a non-starter because of reading too much into specifications. Expand Once again, the OP is seemingly not interested in the typical and typically near useless specifications of manufacturers but rather elaborate measurements. Especially spinorama and I presume preferably from third parties (ASR and/or Erin's Audio and/or anyone or anything with a Klippel near-field scanner). Edited July 3, 2023 by Satanica 2
Addicted to music Posted July 3, 2023 Posted July 3, 2023 On 03/07/2023 at 4:00 AM, Hydrology said: If you're buying a speaker solely on measurements, you're doing it wrong. What makes you think these brands aren't exceeding sales expectations? What makes you think those that do publish measurements aren't embellishing? There was a time when smoking was considered good for your health... While not my cup of tea sonically, Krix are killing it on a global scale, particularly in theatre. Some of the most enjoyable speakers I've ever heard were almost a non-starter because of reading too much into specifications. Expand not according to Erin: https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/march_audio_sointuva/ this is just one review with measurements
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