New Territory for me - miniDSP Flex, Dirac Live & Vinyl!

[Rustee]

 

This thread carries on from this where I was initially on the path of building some subs to improve my bass.

The short story is I tried some EQ and had a taste of the improvement possible with my current speakers, which may just be enough to suit my needs.

 

My system is 2 channel running mainly vintage gear with most of my focus over the last few years targeted at improving my vinyl playback ( I also stream and play CDs occasionally). 

So, depending on where I get to, this thread may help those who love vinyl and are on the fence about trying DSP (or any EQ for that matter).

 

 

 

Here we go!

 

Had a few hours with the house to myself and got the miniDSP Flex with Dirac Live 3 all up and running after a bit of fluffing about.

 

Measurement arrangement selected was 'Focussed imaging' which sit in between 'tightly focussed' and 'wide imaging'

With REW I normally take measurements at 80dbA, but as this was all new, I set the master volume to ~75bdA at the LP.

 

So after my first set of measurements, this is what the first response and default target curve looks like.

 

 

After playing with the curve a bit I've ended up with something like the one below. Definitely more work/playing required but it sounds better than the default target.

 

One thing I found was that there is no low freq cutoff option. The curtains (yellow vertical bars at left and right extremities) limit only the corrected frequency. So this is why I have the freq dropping off quite steeply below ~40Hz. Without doing this my bass driver was going a bit bonkers as the volume went up (vinyl playback only). Might be able to lower this 'cut off' to about 20-30hz. Either way, its a bit of a messy way of addressing this.

 

It also appears you only get one target curve in the standard DL software. Would be interested to know if this is the one I should be tweaking, or are there others I should download and experiment with? Is so, which ones and where can I download them?

 

Finally this:

'The are level monitors inside the DSP config software that you can watch live... so you can set it up controlling the level using your preamp, and then SEE what is happening.' @davewantsmoore, is the screen below where you were referring to?

 

 

 

Super happy to have got it up and sort of running. I see a lot of potential even though most of the time today was spent navigating the software and getting it all to work, and then taking all the measurements. So not a great deal of time was spent improving SQ, but in a few very rough and ready tweaks I got it sounding pretty ok, I currently have 3 presets saved in the Flex; the default target curve, the target with a bit more bass and then another with a bit more bass again (second screen shot above). I think I also tapered the upper frequencies down from the default of about -2db to about 3.2db.

Very quick playing around more just to hear what effect it all had.

 

 

 

Cheers,

Russ

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 27, 2023 by Rustee

[davewantsmoore]

11 hours ago, Rustee said:

After playing with the curve a bit I've ended up with something like the one below. Definitely more work/playing required but it sounds better than the default target.

Cool.

 

You'll probably want to pay attention to the area between your curve and my (very rough) red line.    This (yours) is a large correction, and so small changes will make a fair difference.

 

 

11 hours ago, Rustee said:

Might be able to lower this 'cut off' to about 20-30hz. Either way, its a bit of a messy way of addressing this.

Yes, I reckon.  It's likely very! low frequencies causing this.

This is the way you address it (or with the curtain).   I would do what you're doing.

 

 

11 hours ago, Rustee said:

It also appears you only get one target curve in the standard DL software.

I wasn't sure about this - I haven't used the new miniDSP software.

The one you are starting with is a very good place to start... I wouldn't fall into the trap of "downloading other curves".... just gently tweak the base one.

You've added about as much bass as I would ever say is sensible ever.... but just watch the 3, 4, 500Hz region.

 

11 hours ago, Rustee said:

is the screen below where you were referring to?

Yes.

Have you adjusted the preamp volume dial from where you would normally have it?

Was the music playing very loud?

If you watch it while listening how high does it peak?

Edited August 27, 2023 by davewantsmoore

[Satanica]

 

I would start with the above curve but set it to +3dB in stead of +5dB in the bass area.
I would also move the low end curtain to about 30Hz and the high end curtain to about 270Hz.

Listen to this for a while and think about it.

[Rustee]

18 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

You'll probably want to pay attention to the area between your curve and my (very rough) red line.    This (yours) is a large correction, and so small changes will make a fair difference.

Thanks Dave, will do. Working from home today so may be able to do some quick adjustments during my break.

 

19 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

Yes, I reckon.  It's likely very! low frequencies causing this.

This is the way you address it (or with the curtain).   I would do what you're doing.

Still getting woofer movement, so will try and tidy this up.

The worry I have is that I am limited to how far to the left I can slide that curtain, as you say it is likely very low frequencies causing this and it may be outside the correctable range.

 

21 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

The one you are starting with is a very good place to start... I wouldn't fall into the trap of "downloading other curves".... just gently tweak the base one.

, cool

 

 

22 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

You've added about as much bass as I would ever say is sensible ever.... but just watch the 3, 4, 500Hz region.

Thats interesting, feels like I had more bass when I EQ'd via the old EQ. Hard to tell at the moment as I can't get the volume too loud due to the woofer movement issue.

 

25 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

Yes.

Ok, so just keep an eye on the Dirac 1 and 2 meters and as long as they don't venture into the red zone, all is good?

 

27 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

Have you adjusted the preamp volume dial from where you would normally have it?

Was the music playing very loud?

I've now set the pre amp to a touch more than where the max was before (about 2 1/4 on the dia as opposed to 2 before) and I no longer touch it. 

Its pretty close to as loud as I used to play before, haven't measured yet, but will soon. Woofer issue what I need to sort before I am comfortable playing at my normal max.

 

[Rustee]

4 minutes ago, Satanica said:

 

I would start with the above curve but set it to +3dB in stead of +5dB in the bass area.
I would also move the low end curtain to about 30Hz and the high end curtain to about 270Hz.

Listen to this for a while and think about it.

Thanks Paul, I will give that a go.

Cheers.

 

 

[Satanica]

2 minutes ago, Rustee said:

Thanks Paul, I will give that a go.

Cheers.

 

 

 

Cool, no worries.

 

It depends on the speaker to a certain degree, but this is the kind of I correction I use and I've tried a lot of different curves and correction ranges.

 

My recommendation is also based on:

1) This frequency area is influenced by the room the most.

2) This frequency area has a good correlation of what is measured (in room) compared to what our ears detect and our brain interprets (hear).

3) Above about 300-500Hz (depending on the speakers and room) there is significantly less correlation between what we in room measure and hear.

I.E. what is measured and represented on a graph like this is not a particularly good indicator of what we hear, especially compared to the lower frequencies.

[davewantsmoore]

37 minutes ago, Rustee said:

Still getting woofer movement, so will try and tidy this up.

The worry I have is that I am limited to how far to the left I can slide that curtain, as you say it is likely very low frequencies causing this and it may be outside the correctable range.

The furthest left yellow dot... pull that lower, and hard left.

As you said I reckon you can move the main cut off lower than where you have it now (experiment)... as long as you keep the excursion moderate, there's no danger to anything, as it is not using a lot of (amplifier) power to make these excursions.

 

 

37 minutes ago, Rustee said:

Ok, so just keep an eye on the Dirac 1 and 2 meters and as long as they don't venture into the red zone, all is good?

You actually want them as high as they can go.   Full level is good, as you are making full use of the converters (ADC, DAC) dynamic range.

 

37 minutes ago, Rustee said:

I've now set the pre amp to a touch more than where the max was before (about 2 1/4 on the dia as opposed to 2 before) and I no longer touch it. 

Its pretty close to as loud as I used to play before, haven't measured yet, but will soon. Woofer issue what I need to sort before I am comfortable playing at my normal max.

OK.   Yep sort out the woofer first.

 

Then.... assuming that there was loudish music playing before, I would try to get the input levels higher.

 

Turn the preamp up, and turn the output channel gain down.   If you can get the input levels peaking at over -20dB this is good.

Then (later, when done) leaving the master set on max.... turn the output channel gains up until you get to "this is loudest I will ever want" ... then use the master control to go backwards from there.

 

Quote

I would start with the above curve but set it to +3dB in stead of +5dB in the bass area.

5 is totally fine (if that is what you like), 10 in the next curve is lots! but also ok (PaulS said most people like 10).

 

There's a big dependancy here on your preferences, and what sort of music you listen to... for a whole host of reasons the amount of bass music is mixed with can vary quite a lot, and so "what is right" can have a pretty wide range.

 

Quote

I would also move the low end curtain to about 30Hz and the high end curtain to about 270Hz.

Using 30 will mean you can't pull the response down (if that's what you find you need to do) ... using the curve instead of the curtain is the way to go here if you need to do that.

 

Using 270 will mean there is a 6dB rise in the octave above.   This will be audible.

It is true that there are differences between "what time windowed measurements look like vs what we hear, across the frequency spectrum" .... but this also doesn't mean there may not be an issue to correct.  Instead of saying "just don't correct frequencies above the bass", I would instead say beware the a small change can make quite a substantial difference in sound quality.  (which is why I was picking out the 300 to 500 ish area, where you made quite a large change).

 

[Satanica]

9 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

5 is totally fine (if that is what you like), 10 in the next curve is lots! but also ok (PaulS said most people like 10).

 

There's a big dependancy here on your preferences, and what sort of music you listen to... for a whole host of reasons the amount of bass music is mixed with can vary quite a lot, and so "what is right" can have a pretty wide range.

 

Yeah , fair enough. With the four profiles on the miniDSP, I'm all up for loading them all up with different bass levels. But +5dB might be stressing the woofer(s) a bit.

 

11 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

Using 30 will mean you can't pull the response down (if that's what you find you need to do) ... using the curve instead of the curtain is the way to go here if you need to do that.

 

Yes, but we are not sure at this stage that this needs to happen, especially if a conservative Harman like curve is used instead of the one below which could be a bit of a woofer cooker.

 

18 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

Using 270 will mean there is a 6dB rise in the octave above.   This will be audible.

It is true that there are differences between "what time windowed measurements look like vs what we hear, across the frequency spectrum" .... but this also doesn't mean there may not be an issue to correct.  Instead of saying "just don't correct frequencies above the bass", I would instead say beware the a small change can make quite a substantial difference in sound quality.  (which is why I was picking out the 300 to 500 ish area, where you made quite a large change).

 

Yeah, I'm not ruling out going higher than that, but I think it's a good place to start to leave stuff alone that might not need any attention. So, I think it's a good idea to just start with just bass correction (all systems need that) and then take note of what can be improved on. Go higher if need be. Thinking some more, overall I think it's good to compare. So have different profiles of upper correction e.g. 270, 500, 3K, 18.6K and compare.

[Keith_W]

14 hours ago, Rustee said:

It also appears you only get one target curve in the standard DL software. Would be interested to know if this is the one I should be tweaking, or are there others I should download and experiment with? Is so, which ones and where can I download them?

 

Congratulations on dipping your toes into DSP! 

 

This comment strikes me as odd, because I definitely remember @andyr loading a different target curve into his MiniDSP. From memory, he is using a MiniDSP Flex. Do different versions of MiniDSP come with different versions of Dirac? 

[Satanica]

1 minute ago, Keith_W said:

This comment strikes me as odd, because I definitely remember @andyr loading a different target curve into his MiniDSP. From memory, he is using a MiniDSP Flex. Do different versions of MiniDSP come with different versions of Dirac? 

 

I think it was meant there is one default curve which is basically a straight line from 20Hz +2.5dB to 20KHz -2.5dB or thereabouts.

 

But there is also a Harman like curve creator as shown below.

 

All miniDSP units come with the same version of Dirac Live, the one and only. None seem to have Bass Control or Active Room Treatment as of yet.

[andyr]

8 minutes ago, Keith_W said:

This comment strikes me as odd, because I definitely remember @andyr loading a different target curve into his MiniDSP. From memory, he is using a MiniDSP Flex. Do different versions of MiniDSP come with different versions of Dirac? 

 

Keith, I use a miniDSP "nanoDIGI" - an all digital unit (so I need external DACs to feed my amplifiers).

 

AFAIK, the nanoDIGI doesn't run DL; yes, I have 4 stored Configs in the nanoDIGI but my only "target curve" is in the Roon Convolution which Con set up.

 

[Rustee]

2 hours ago, Satanica said:

I would start with the above curve but set it to +3dB in stead of +5dB in the bass area.
I would also move the low end curtain to about 30Hz and the high end curtain to about 270Hz.

Tried this during my lunch break but neglected to bring the low end curtain up to 30hz. I'll revisit, but initial listen on the below curve was not overly favourable. Light in the bass and top end was not as clean as when corrected. Will give this another go and maybe even up the bass a little to 5db again and see how it goes.

[Rustee]

2 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

The furthest left yellow dot... pull that lower, and hard left.

As you said I reckon you can move the main cut off lower than where you have it now (experiment)... as long as you keep the excursion moderate, there's no danger to anything, as it is not using a lot of (amplifier) power to make these excursions.

Did that, dragged the curtain all the way to the left (cool, didn't think it would go) and dropped the target right down, much better.

 

2 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

You actually want them as high as they can go.   Full level is good, as you are making full use of the converters (ADC, DAC) dynamic range.

Oh right, didn't know that. I bumped the volume on the preamp another notch and they still aren't getting close to the top. I feels weird/scary cranking the pre so high, It rarely went past 2!

 

2 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

OK.   Yep sort out the woofer first.

It was up around 80-85db mark, now that pre am is up a notch again, I don't even get to 0db on the Flex and it is plenty loud enough.

 

2 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

Then.... assuming that there was loudish music playing before, I would try to get the input levels higher.

 

Turn the preamp up, and turn the output channel gain down.   If you can get the input levels peaking at over -20dB this is good.

Then (later, when done) leaving the master set on max.... turn the output channel gains up until you get to "this is loudest I will ever want" ... then use the master control to go backwards from there.

Ill have to step through these instructions. See how I go.

 

I created a new filter and didn't play around too much with it this time. I increased the low shelf a bit ( to about +7db), bumped up about 150hz slightly and and left everything above 200hz,  (had -3db HF tilt before). Hmmm its starting to sound really good... The detail is nice, and the bass is good. 

 

1 hour ago, Satanica said:

which could be a bit of a woofer cooker

is the below bass target still a concern?

 

 

 

 

Edited August 28, 2023 by Rustee

[Rustee]

1 hour ago, Keith_W said:

Congratulations on dipping your toes into DSP! 

Thank you!

 

1 hour ago, Keith_W said:

I definitely remember @andyr loading a different target curve into his MiniDSP

I'm pretty sure i can load more in. There was actually 2 available, one was a tilted flat line/curve, and the other was the one I posted above with the low and high shelf.

[Rustee]

1 hour ago, Satanica said:

I think it was meant there is one default curve which is basically a straight line from 20Hz +2.5dB to 20KHz -2.5dB or thereabouts.

 

But there is also a Harman like curve creator as shown below.

Yes this ^

[davewantsmoore]

3 minutes ago, Rustee said:

Oh right, didn't know that. I bumped the volume on the preamp another notch and they still aren't getting close to the top. I feels weird/scary cranking the pre so high, It rarely went past 2!

2 out of ?

 

3 minutes ago, Rustee said:

It was up around 80-85db mark, now that pre am is up a notch again, I don't even get to 0db on the Flex and it is plenty loud enough.

Turn the output channel gains down.

 

3 minutes ago, Rustee said:

is the below bass target still a concern?

No

'sept to say that small changes, eg/. in the 100 to 300Hz region will make a lot of difference to things like warmth, tone, etc. etc. etc. (inset audiophile adjectives)

 

[Rustee]

2 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

2 out of ?

 

10

[Rustee]

2 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

Turn the output channel gains down.

 

I should add that even though I didnt get to 0db, it was pretty close ~ -3 to -5db and it was good loud volume. 

[davewantsmoore]

Just now, Rustee said:

I should add that even though I didnt get to 0db, it was pretty close ~ -3 to -5db and it was good loud volume. 

Turn the output gains down (a lot) and the preamp up.

[Satanica]

13 minutes ago, Rustee said:

Is the below bass target still a concern?

 

 

 

 

 

I can't say at this stage. The right channel looks OK but are you running stereo subwoofers? The reason I ask is the left channel of just bass below about 80Hz is significantly less than the right.

[davewantsmoore]

38 minutes ago, Satanica said:

reason

Hmm... I only looked at the target quickly.

 

I would want to figure that out... could be one speaker in a corner, and other just against wall (I can't remember room layout, I did see a pic at one stage.... but)

[Rustee]

1 hour ago, Satanica said:

The right channel looks OK but are you running stereo subwoofers? The reason I ask is the left channel of just bass below about 80Hz is significantly less than the right.

No subs

37 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

ould be one speaker in a corner,

Yes right speaker is in a corner. Pics FYI

 

 

[Rustee]

8 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

Turn the output gains down (a lot) and the preamp up.

I nearly posted about 3 times about to ask how I do this, but I finally worked out where it is! Love these small wins.

So my question now is, if I turn up the preamp and turn down the output gain, how will this affect say my bluetooth volume level? As my output gain is reduced I am worried I may run out of volume. One way to find out I guess.

 

 

In my fluffing about trying to work out the above, i stumbled across the PEQ filters, I might be able to use this to be control/eliminate low really low frequencies.

Not sure at all how this effects my 'preset' curve if I was to apply this.

 

 

 

Also played around with my curve and tried minimising some of the large corrections by somewhat following the frequency response of the speaker and limiting the boost to a max of 7db ( i have another which is identical at 8db to compare). Improved the low freq cut off by tidying it up a bit and also brought in the top end curtain down to about 15khz. 
Yet to have a listen.

 

Having lots of fun I gotta say.

 

Edited August 28, 2023 by Rustee

[davewantsmoore]

2 hours ago, Rustee said:

So my question now is, if I turn up the preamp and turn down the output gain, how will this affect say my bluetooth volume level?

The gain settings (and all the other output settings, I believe... but you will have to check) should follow the input.   ie. if you set the output gain lower for analogue, you can set it to something else for another input.

 

2 hours ago, Rustee said:

Not sure at all how this effects my 'preset' curve if I was to apply this.

It applies after (on top of) the Dirac Live correction.

 

I'd recommend you correct the speaker with Dirac Live to be what you would otherwise have as a target curve ... then find the problematic frequencies for your woofer, and create a sharp notch filter to reduce them.   (But there are a few ways to skin this cat)

 

2 hours ago, Rustee said:

Also played around with my curve and tried minimising some of the large corrections by somewhat following the frequency response of the speaker

If you were going to do this (which I don't recommend).   I would recommend you only do it in regions where your speaker is not being dominated by the room, eg. >> 300Hz.

Maybe something like 

 

 

Quote

One way to find out I guess

Yep.

 

Master volume right down

Gain down substantially (say 30, whatever)

Preamp up

Now raise master volume slowly from zero ... and see where you get to before loud!

 

If you can get the input levels to peak at ~2/3rds full, with the output gain above, say -40dB.... and then max on the master vol = max speaker pain.   Then call that good.

[Rustee]

18 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

I believe... but you will have to check) should follow the input.   ie. if you set the output gain lower for analogue, you can set it to something else for another input.

Doesn't appear to be the case. I dropped the gain to 30 and swapped Input from USB (as PC was connected) to Analog and gain remained at 30.

 

 

18 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

then find the problematic frequencies for your woofer, and create a sharp notch filter to reduce them.   (But there are a few ways to skin this cat)

Will do, interested to know what other options I have to skin this cat.

 

18 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

which I don't recommend

If you don't recommend it, I won't do it. I just seen a guy using that approach on a YT vid, but it may have been in the higher frequencies as you suggest.

I now have this one to try, I did bump the 100-200 zone a little, hope that is ok.

I have left everything above 200hz as corrected by DL, it actually sounds pretty damn good.