Rustee Posted August 31, 2023 Author Posted August 31, 2023 4 hours ago, davewantsmoore said: Thy this again... but ensure that you are not changing presets. Just change the input. I did? Preset 2 in both screens below. Just different input. Gain value of 12 did not change 1
playdough Posted August 31, 2023 Posted August 31, 2023 (edited) 4 hours ago, davewantsmoore said: You could.... but why ? Well, as example and on the face of the 2x8 Plugin. 2 configurations, unsure how this would help the OP but it might. Config 1 Digital Selected, Analogue muted, Routing and channel assignment digital input only, Config 1 Config 1 digital on the output page all filters, EQ, TD, Gain Structure I can then toggle to Config 2, if I want to play an analogue device and not blow anything up, or get a devo switch pop, or similar nasty. Configuration 2 Input selected preset to mute digital input Routing channel assignment, Analogue input. And finally the outputs are set up almost the same as the Digital, although I have a slightly different EQ set for Analogue, in Config 2, like a 20Hz brick wall HP filter on the 21' subs. The wobbly drivers can make you feel queasy running vinyl. Here is where it get's interesting. You can set up the Master volume for volume control, Digital only via IR Remote or locally at the DSP box. Fairly sure it will not remote control or at the DSP box Analogue, you have to interface with the DSP and actually toggle the Master Input toggles. So yes, pre amp volume controller possibly required. See lower RHS of screen photo. I think @davewantsmoore would rather the actual gain control for analogue input from the Pre amp to come in at a high level and control it digitally , so the analogue signal is not "coming out of the noise floor of the Preamp" Put it this way, if I was out in the field, Engineering a Band and used the miniDSP as a speaker manager (which it is quite useful for, set and forget) using the analogue input, I would use the Mixer Master Volume sliders L and R, not play around in the DSP with a USB and separate PC digital volume, er no, too much faff. The PC might be mixed used for an output (Analogue via headphone socket to Mixer Aux) at band break periods. Rather than at the speaker manger DSP. When the DSP is set up back at home for digital, go to config 1 Sound reasonable ? Either method works. Rustee, Mate, if you like I can get my posts off your thread if you like , heart is in the right place trying to help might be off topic. Edited August 31, 2023 by playdough 1
davewantsmoore Posted August 31, 2023 Posted August 31, 2023 3 hours ago, Rustee said: I did? Ok, this picture looks like you did. Alright, then ... if it can't be done (I just read the manual again, and now I'm not sure the ADC levels can be adjusted) ... then you'll just have to set the "input/routing" gains back to zero.... set the output gain where you need it so a digital source plays at max-pain when you hit 100% master.... and then find the level on your preamp where they're equal loudness (and leave the preamp there). 37 minutes ago, playdough said: Well, as example and on the face of the 2x8 Plugin. 2 configurations, unsure how this would help the OP but it might. In his plug-in selecting Preset #2 (for example) does 2 things. It loads the minidsp config for preset#2, and it also loads the DiracLive#2 preset. The presets are designed to be used to switch "EQ settings" (not inputs).... although, of course you can use them however you want. Quote Fairly sure it will not remote control or at the DSP box Analogue, you have to interface with the DSP and actually toggle the Master Input toggles. The Flex comes with an IR remote, with buttons on it for inputs, and presets. 37 minutes ago, playdough said: Config 1 Digital Selected, Analogue muted, The plugin he is using doesn't have the ability to mute the inputs like this. 37 minutes ago, playdough said: I think would rather the actual gain control for analogue input from the Pre amp to come in at a high level and control it digitally , so the analogue signal is not "coming out of the noise floor of the Preamp" Yep - just basic levels management. -47 peak is not ideal.... but also not deal breakingly bad.... and we can't be sure how the internal precision of the DSP is arranged. If it can be fixed, then it's a no brainer... if ti can't be fixed, then R should move on (obviously, I was surprised that it couldn't be solved, but.... I may be wrong, I don't use this plugin before, but I read manual 4 times)
Rustee Posted August 31, 2023 Author Posted August 31, 2023 1 hour ago, playdough said: Rustee, Mate, if you like I can get my posts off your thread if you like , heart is in the right place trying to help might be off topic. No definitely not. Its all good information and I very much appreciate all the input and alternatives offered. Plenty for me to learn and digest and it may help others at some point. 1
playdough Posted August 31, 2023 Posted August 31, 2023 Yea, all I was trying to suggest in my description above in switchable configurations, needs to be addressed thoroughly and correctly before anything (works properly) else in any speaker system controlling DSP. The DL is part of the "last process in the string" tacked on to the individual preset configs. (This is my interpretation may be wrong) I have 5 loaded. Low level listening bass enhancement is one. Config 2, I run my old record player/pre/A class buffer with v pot. 1 hour ago, playdough said: out in the field This Field application example, if the miniDSP 2x8 had "Dirac Live plugged in", and I had a Umik mic and cal file or similar, the PC, I would possibly use it inside the same venue every time, make it a preset part of a Configuration 3, Analogue set up. Volume control via the Mixer, or in Rustee's case a nice stepper attenuation controlled phono pre amplifier (or buffer circuit, with a Vpot.) Something not too low in output, tapped out for the analogue into the MiniDSP. The phono pre amp arrangement, would need to make audiophile grade attenuated signal and have a very low noise floor, output impedance matched to a degree to the miniDSP Flex 8 analogue input@davewantsmoore might know the Analogue input impedance he has read the manual often enough This may not be the case for the Flex Rustee has, but it is for my old 2x8, it might (the Flex) volume attenuate Analogue, digitally via the remote controller and be able to go from, A config, to D config via 1 IR remote, would be nice but I need to buy one and fiddle around with the interface to find out. Monkey get a banana ? Not easy.
Rustee Posted August 31, 2023 Author Posted August 31, 2023 (edited) 14 hours ago, davewantsmoore said: Alright, then ... if it can't be done (I just read the manual again, and now I'm not sure the ADC levels can be adjusted) ... then you'll just have to set the "input/routing" gains back to zero.... set the output gain where you need it so a digital source plays at max-pain when you hit 100% master.... and then find the level on your preamp where they're equal loudness (and leave the preamp there) Bugger and will do. I'm sorry that you had to read the manual so many times! Is getting the master at 100% at max loudness purely to ensure I'm using all the volume adjustment and maxing out my max volume, or does having the output gain down help with headroom/clipping/SQ at an equal SPL? Sorry that probably sounds confusing, so are the 2 scenarios below equal in terms of available headroom/clipping/ SQ: - Master volume at say -20db and SPL at 80db - Master volume at max 0db and SPL at 80db With the only difference being the output gain. Edited August 31, 2023 by Rustee
Rustee Posted August 31, 2023 Author Posted August 31, 2023 1 hour ago, davewantsmoore said: if ti can't be fixed, then R should move on As in, just set the gains as you describe above and enjoy/play with different curves etc.., or move on from DL?
Rustee Posted August 31, 2023 Author Posted August 31, 2023 17 minutes ago, playdough said: The DL is part of the "last process in the string" tacked on to the individual preset configs. My understanding was that you either use the miniDSP software or DL, not both. Would be good to test, because if that possible I might be able to reduce that input gain.
playdough Posted August 31, 2023 Posted August 31, 2023 1 minute ago, Rustee said: reduce that input gain Most likely externally at your phono pre amp same as my set up/config. The digital is spdif and volume attenuated at the computer, digitally, externally. 4 minutes ago, Rustee said: miniDSP software or DL My question is where on the DL interface is "routing channel assignment" and "Channel Bandpass Filtering ? (have not read the manual, maybe I should ) Does DL do all the channel gain structure, TD and EQ, to a target you set, for desired FR ? Other than that I'm no better off than Dave and his manual, without the Hardware in front of me. But when mine arrives you will be the first to know, if you haven't worked it out.
Rustee Posted August 31, 2023 Author Posted August 31, 2023 1 hour ago, playdough said: where on the DL interface is "routing channel assignment" I don't think there is any routing in DL. It is 2 channel only (even though it has 4 outputs). If I had a pair of subs, the left sub and left main is measured together. Then you can set crossover, and EQ. 1 hour ago, playdough said: "Channel Bandpass Filtering ? Not sure what this is, I assume high pass/low pass filtering? This is done the crossover section accessed by: 1 hour ago, playdough said: Does DL do all the channel gain structure, TD and EQ, to a target you set, for desired FR ? I took a series of measurements (13 i think), and DL provides a couple of target curves. I think it does TD and definitely EQ, not sure about gain structure. Dave?? 1 hour ago, playdough said: But when mine arrives you will be the first to know, if you haven't worked it out. Thanking you! 1
Rustee Posted August 31, 2023 Author Posted August 31, 2023 (edited) So my thoughts so far? At a very 'monkey' level and only after about 5 days, here are my initial thoughts: The good: - SQ has improved from bass through to HF. It has really created a smooth response in the mids and highs. Bass is sounding good and I continue to tweak and experiment. - No hiss or noise that you often read about with the older miniDSP's. This thing is silent. - Tweaking EQ curves is fun, and as Dave has mentioned, little changes make a big difference. - Curves are easy to play with - Learning a lot about how different frequencies affect sound/tone etc.. - Guided DL measurement process was quite intuitive - Have eliminated a few 'boxes' from my rack (Marchand crossover, graphic EQ, bluetooth DAC) - Able to drag LF right down to prevent turntable rumble - PEQ adjustments available (haven't played with them yet) - Easy to add a pair of subs should I now choose to - Presets are great and being able to select them from remote is great - Curtains are great to limit the corrected range if you so wish - Ability to switch between standard Flex and DL should you wish to experiment - It was really easy to get it up and running and get reasonable sound with minimal tweaking or messing about. - Oh and yes, vinyl still sounds like vinyl, just with a little more bass now The struggles: - My lack of understanding of whats happening in that black box in terms of the various gains and not knowing if Im in a safe zone or not. Just read the last 3 pages! - The 'preset' name remains named 'preset' on the Flex display even though you give it a custom name in the DL console. So you need to remember preset 1 was this, preset 2 was that etc... - No clipping indication in the DL display console. This would be handy. Although RMS levels are shown with green - red zones. - Takes about 3 or 4 seconds ( i haven't timed, might be less) to switch between presets. - Once you create a curve and export to the Flex, you can't extract that curve from the Flex next time you're in the DL console. So, you must save the curve/target and label it preset 1...... Would be handy if you hadn't been in there for a while and didn't remember what curves are in there ( I already have many saved after only a few days of playing).You are able to select the curves/presets from the console (they are listed) and you can listen to them, but when you click them the curve does not appear so you can't actually see which curve you are listening to, aside from 'preset 1' and what ever name you gave it. - No input gain adjustment from DL as per last few pages. Overall the experience has been very positive despite my head spinning trying to understand lots of things as this is all very new to me. Appreciate the patience. Note: some of those 'struggles' are likely related to my inexperience rather than the unit/software. Cheers, Russ Edited August 31, 2023 by Rustee 2
playdough Posted August 31, 2023 Posted August 31, 2023 All good Rustee, I had a look at the manual for the Flex, found out what I needed in this interesting read, the block diagram a the point of "overall response shaping" with or without DL or variant. https://www.minidsp.com/applications/digital-crossovers/two-way-crossover#routing The Dirac, is in place of the master EQ on input, in the block chain of things, not a tac on answered my own question. Just about to set up a DDRC-22D (I have here) , in the digital chain of the 2x8 so have it all ahead , first timer. Like your thoughts. of the miniDSP Flex Sounds easier to operate than the old one to get good FR, it can be buggy and takes time to get to know it. Especially for a few different speaker sets, up to 8 ch. Frustrating at times. Yea they are very quiet(this older one is anyway), even on 117dB efficient JBL wave guides and CD's Great buy with the Analogue input.
davewantsmoore Posted August 31, 2023 Posted August 31, 2023 12 hours ago, Rustee said: As in, just set the gains as you describe above and enjoy/play with different curves etc.., or move on from DL? The former. Set the (green/purple) gains in the routing matrix (top of the output channels) to zero. Send a (full scale) digital input to the DSP, with the master vol low Set the output gain as low as you can, so that max master vol = max ever SPL Set preamp so analogue inputs are the same volume as digital Done When you create presets, ensure the gain(s) is always as determined above... so there is no changing of gain behaviour when changing presets Know that when you load/save a preset, the preset (eg. Slot 1) contains the config/EQ from Preset 1 in the miniDSP console, and Preset 1 in DL. I would suggest you come up with minimal PEQ in miniDSP (eg. notching your LF issue, if needed) ... and then do no other EQ in the miniDSP console, and put all your "listening curve" type EQ in Dirac. 12 hours ago, playdough said: The DL is part of the "last process in the string" tacked on to the individual preset configs. (This is my interpretation may be wrong) No. The complete opposite. It is first. In the miniDSP console, the "input is Dirac Live". 12 hours ago, playdough said: fiddle around with the interface to find out. Monkey get a banana ? Not easy. To be fair, minidsp don't make the best manuals... but they are getting a lot better. Read it. 12 hours ago, Rustee said: I'm sorry that you had to read the manual so many times! It's ok, I was genuinely surprised it wasn't a thing... but now I think more about it, perhaps not. The internal precision of the DSP could handle this signal level ok. 12 hours ago, Rustee said: Is getting the master at 100% at max loudness purely to ensure I'm using all the volume adjustment and maxing out my max volume, or does having the output gain down help with clipping/SQ at an equal SPL? 2 reasons. Having the out gain down, helps you turn the preamp up as far as you can Having the output gain at the level where max volume control = max speaker pain .... mean that you cannot break your speakers no matter how (intentional or otherwise) pressy someone gets with the volume button ... 12 hours ago, Rustee said: Sorry that probably sounds confusing, so are the 2 scenarios below equal in terms of available headroom/clipping/ SQ: - Master volume at say -20db and SPL at 80db - Master volume at max 0db and SPL at 80db With the only difference being the output gain. These are identical. It was only the ADC input where I was potentially worried about this. To be clear though. Set the DSP up, so that the settings results in "maximum SPL" when master is at 0dB ... and then leave it alone. 10 hours ago, Rustee said: I don't think there is any routing in DL. It is 2 channel only (even though it has 4 outputs). The Dirac Live is 2 channels. Dirac Live appears as the Input in the miniDSP console. You can route the 2 channels of Dirac Live input.... to the 4 outputs. 10 hours ago, Rustee said: Not sure what this is, I assume high pass/low pass filtering? This is done the crossover section accessed by: Yes. You can create PEQs and highlow pass filters in the miniDSP. In addition to Dirac Live... have DL off, and just use what is in miniDSP console. 10 hours ago, Rustee said: I took a series of measurements (13 i think), and DL provides a couple of target curves. I think it does TD and definitely EQ, not sure about gain structure. Dave?? What is the question exactly? 9 hours ago, Rustee said: - PEQ adjustments available (haven't played with them yet) Like I've said, I really don't recommend this... unless it was something quite specific (like TT rumble) 9 hours ago, Rustee said: - My lack of understanding of whats happening in that black box in terms of the various gains and not knowing if Im in a safe zone or not. Just read the last 3 pages! You are safe (it always was). 9 hours ago, Rustee said: - The 'preset' name remains named 'preset' on the Flex display even though you give it a custom name in the DL console. So you need to remember preset 1 was this, preset 2 was that etc... Yep. Cannot rename presets (on the front panel). 9 hours ago, Rustee said: - Once you create a curve and export to the Flex, you can't extract that curve from the Flex next time you're in the DL console. So, you must save the curve/target and label it preset 1...... Would be handy if you hadn't been in there for a while and didn't remember what curves are in there ( I already have many saved after only a few days of playing).You are able to select the curves/presets from the console (they are listed) and you can listen to them, but when you click them the curve does not appear so you can't actually see which curve you are listening to, aside from 'preset 1' and what ever name you gave it. Yeah... but this won't be such a bug once you stop playing with it and just enjoy 9 hours ago, Rustee said: - No input gain adjustment from DL as per last few pages. It's ok, don't stress. Sorry for the "round-trip" on this.
davewantsmoore Posted August 31, 2023 Posted August 31, 2023 12 hours ago, Rustee said: My understanding was that you either use the miniDSP software or DL, not both. Would be good to test, because if that possible I might be able to reduce that input gain. There two version of the miniDSP firmware (and software). DL + MiniDSP MiniDSP You're using the first one. Dirac runs (first!) on the hardware inputs... and then the "input to miniDSP is Dirac" (if that makes sense, which is why the input strips on your minidsp console are labeled Dirac). The second one is just plain hardware input -> miniDSP. The two aren't "interchangeable" ... in that converting will "lose everything" as the device firmware is rewritten.
Rustee Posted September 1, 2023 Author Posted September 1, 2023 7 hours ago, davewantsmoore said: Set the (green/purple) gains in the routing matrix (top of the output channels) to zero. Send a (full scale) digital input to the DSP, with the master vol low Set the output gain as low as you can, so that max master vol = max ever SPL Set preamp so analogue inputs are the same volume as digital Done Ok all done. Digital input; connected bluetooth and backed down output gain until I have max SPL at 0 on volume control. Output set to -7db on all presets now.(I used bluetooth as it was the only digital input I have, but in hindsight I could have used my laptop via USB input. Will have to try this, not sure if I can have my laptop connected for console adjustments AND providing a musical signal at the same time.) Then went to analog input selection with turntable source and increased preamp volume until max SPL reached at 0 on Flex volume control. Then, still on analog input, changed source into preamp to CD and adjusted the CD output (into the pre) so that SPL now also matches my vinyl volume. Great, now I can switch between any input and any preset and volume is pretty much the same! Screen FYI. Hard to get a screen capture when the Dirac 1 and 2 RMS meters peak as they do get into the light orange zone momentarily every now and then ( a little higher than shown below). For what its worth this is the curve Im liking at the moment. 7 hours ago, davewantsmoore said: you come up with minimal PEQ in miniDSP (eg. notching your LF issue, if needed) ... and then do no other EQ Looks like I won't need to create any LF notch in PEQ. Drivers are now behaving since dropping the target right down below 20hz. 7 hours ago, davewantsmoore said: 2 reasons. Having the out gain down, helps you turn the preamp up as far as you can Having the output gain at the level where max volume control = max speaker pain .... mean that you cannot break your speakers no matter how (intentional or otherwise) pressy someone gets with the volume button ... 7 hours ago, davewantsmoore said: To be clear though. Set the DSP up, so that the settings results in "maximum SPL" when master is at 0dB ... and then leave it alone. Done! 7 hours ago, davewantsmoore said: It's ok, don't stress. Sorry for the "round-trip" on this. Thanks and no problem at all. Was worth checking for. 7 hours ago, davewantsmoore said: Dirac runs (first!) on the hardware inputs... and then the "input to miniDSP is Dirac" Right, I didn't know that. 8 hours ago, davewantsmoore said: What is the question exactly? Glen ( @playdough ) was asking if DL does gain structure EQ/adjustment. I wasn't sure what that meant.
Rustee Posted September 1, 2023 Author Posted September 1, 2023 16 hours ago, playdough said: I had a look at the manual for the Flex, found out what I needed in this interesting read, the block diagram a the point of "overall response shaping" with or without DL or variant. https://www.minidsp.com/applications/digital-crossovers/two-way-crossover#routing Thanks for that link, some good reading for me to edumacate myself! 16 hours ago, playdough said: Like your thoughts. of the miniDSP Flex Thanks. 16 hours ago, playdough said: Sounds easier to operate than the old one to get good FR Never used the straight out minidsp but this was and is quite nice to use and play with. Its great. 16 hours ago, playdough said: Great buy with the Analogue input. 1
davewantsmoore Posted September 1, 2023 Posted September 1, 2023 2 hours ago, Rustee said: Ok Great Other link was generic info. Flex info https://docs.minidsp.com/product-manuals/flex/index.html About the software you are using on the Flex (not the "standard" Flex) https://docs.minidsp.com/product-manuals/ddrc-24/index.html
Rustee Posted September 1, 2023 Author Posted September 1, 2023 2 hours ago, davewantsmoore said: Flex info https://docs.minidsp.com/product-manuals/flex/index.html About the software you are using on the Flex (not the "standard" Flex) https://docs.minidsp.com/product-manuals/ddrc-24/index.html Thank you.
Rustee Posted November 22, 2023 Author Posted November 22, 2023 Ok so its been a couple of months since my last post here and thought I'd provide an update for those interested on where I got to. Firstly a big thanks to @davewantsmoore for the guidance over the last couple of months which enabled me to get where I am today. So the miniDSP Flex with Dirac Live is still in place and running full range correction on my NS1000m’s. The initial aim of all this was to improve my bass response only, however the improvement in the mid range and highs have been just as impressive. My system is no longer fatiguing and the bass has improved greatly. It has been a great learning ‘curve’ playing around with corrections and, knowing what to adjust and how much to adjust it, has been been really interesting. Although I would have been going around in circles (for a lot longer) had it not been for the support I had. The different preset options in the Flex unit are great while trying different adjustments, however I’m not actually using multiple presets for different types of music or different sources. I now have a target that sounds good now regardless of what I am playing - which for me is great as I like simplicity in my system. I have a few more things to experiment with particularly in the lower frequencies, but for now I am just enjoying the music, more than I ever have despite any conversions taking place. Prior to going into this, I tried reading up on other peoples experiences with EQ (DSP in particular) and analogue sources (as I do like my vinyl) and there was not a lot of info out there. Most of the comments were negative, mostly from people that had never actually tried it, or listened to someones system that had been properly EQ’d. I’m not saying mine is perfect, far from it, but it sounds a lot better than without it. One of the measurements I did early on was to compare the FR with DL turned off (but still going through the A2D, D2A conversions in the Flex unit) and then with the Flex removed entirely (no conversions - all analogue). As you can see below, an identical FR (there are 2 readings overlaid there). This was more for my curiosity but though it may be of interest to anyone else wondering if the conversions without any DSP applied impacted the FR. @davewantsmoore has kindly offered to provide some info and comparisons on some of the measurements I took with and without Dirac Live enabled which I have copied in below. As he mentions below, the differences are not huge visually (at least to an untrained eye like mine) but I can assure you it is chalk and cheese to the ear. On 13/11/2023 at 12:15 PM, davewantsmoore said: DSP on (Red) vs DSP off (Yellow) These charts show what might not look like a lot .... but because it is spread out over one or many octaves, it is quite a lot. 1dB is not small...... and what might look like quite a small difference in phase, look like a lot when we plot how the speaker responds to a very "complex" signal (eg. a square wave, or "step"). There's still some more things in the frequency response which could maybe be tweaked..... but, quantifying the speaker more requires looking at the response from multiple angles (aka. the "directivity" of the speaker) to understand if a peak or a dip measured from one direction, is a peak/dip from other directions .... ie. how the speaker affects the entire "room sound". This general "curve" fits much closer to the "perceptually preferred" curves or Harman, B&K, etc. "When" the energy from the speaker arrives. Ideally the red (after) and yellow (before) would follow the input (white) In the first millisecond, the before response has energy peaks which are out of time with each other. It's a good way to visualise that the phase (timing) of the speaker has improved. The reason why neither follow the sharp rise, or (reach or) stay at the top of the white like, is because they cannot play infinitely high, or infinitely low, frequencies. Zoomed in on the bass, shows its still a bit bass "shy" (-6dB from 150Hz to 20Hz) .... but that's both subjective, and the nature of this speaker. The narrow errors (reflections from the room, which can't be completely solved with EQ) have been left alone, and the bigger errors have been straightened out. What most people would gloss over as "small" (1dB isn't necessarily small at all) ...... would I expect make a fairly big improvement in sound quality. Below is the target curve I am using at the moment and what was used for the measurement comparisons above where DL/DSP was ON. It has been a great journey and I’m super glad I took the plunge despite being anxious about how my vinyl would sound. I still hate apps (updates, glitches, restarts etc…) but the Flex is very stable and now I don’t even think about it. I just power it up like I do my amps etc… and play music. Super happy. So thank you to you all who contributed and helped along the way, it is much appreciated and I hope this thread helps someone else who may be considering DSP with a vintage or analogue system. Cheers, Russ 4
andyr Posted November 22, 2023 Posted November 22, 2023 As you know, Russ - I'm a full-on advocate for DSP used with vinyl systems! So I'm very happy you feel using a Flex has improved your listening experience, having passive spkrs. Just one point re. this graph and test you did: 18 minutes ago, Rustee said: One of the measurements I did early on was to compare the FR with DL turned off (but still going through the A2D, D2A conversions in the Flex unit) and then with the Flex removed entirely (no conversions - all analogue). As you can see below, an identical FR (there are 2 readings overlaid there). This was more for my curiosity but though it may be of interest to anyone else wondering if the conversions without any DSP applied impacted the FR. I suspect that it is possible to hear a difference between 'straight' analogue and 'A2D then D2A' analogue ... even if the FRs of each are identical (as yours are). [IOW, things other than FR need to be measured to confirm this. (But what 'things'!!??)] But perhaps if you're running at 96kHz or above ... any (listening) difference will be vanishingly small? 1
Rustee Posted November 22, 2023 Author Posted November 22, 2023 (edited) 15 minutes ago, andyr said: As you know, Russ - I'm a full-on advocate for DSP used with vinyl systems! So I'm very happy you feel using a Flex has improved your listening experience, having passive spkrs. Hi Andy, yes indeed I do. And in my quest for info I did come across a few of your posts on various forums which were the exception to most of what I read 15 minutes ago, andyr said: I suspect that it is possible to hear a difference between 'straight' analogue and 'A2D then D2A' analogue ... even if the FRs of each are identical (as yours are). [IOW, things other than FR need to be measured to confirm this. (But what 'things'!!??)] Yep agree there is more to how something sounds than just the FR but I figured it was worth a mention. I havent done any back to back listening tests with and without the conversions as its a bit of a pain swapping the cables over. But I will in a little while (once I am familiar with the current sound) go back to full analogue and compare. Will be interesting. 15 minutes ago, andyr said: But perhaps if you're running at 96kHz or above ... any (listening) difference will be vanishingly small? Looks like 96khz through the miniDSP but drops to 48khz if using DL (which was not part of that specific comparison - miniDSP only) Edited November 22, 2023 by Rustee
davewantsmoore Posted November 22, 2023 Posted November 22, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, andyr said: IOW, things other than FR need to be measured to confirm this. (But what 'things'!!??) If the frequency response is the same, then the "phase" is the same. ... and if the frequency response is very very very the same, then we know that any "other things" (eg. noise, and/or other frequencies that wen't present in the input) are very very small also. So... what I would suggest, is that the right way to approach this is to not to "measure them". And.... even if you did. What would it tell you? Nothing. It doesn't "confirm" anything. (and you would also need to have very very good measurement equipment). What I would recommend, is to instead directly address your hypothesis that it is possible to hear the miniDSP Flex. If people can hear it.... they'll be able to hear it. This would require: Set up a path from your source direct to your amplifiers Set up a path from the source to your amplifiers the goes through the Flex Ensure the Flex is not modifying the signal in any way (including excessive attenuation/noise floor) ... and calibrate the volume between each path ... measure the two paths, to confirm they are really "the same" Have a way to switch easily between the two paths --- without delay and without leaving your seat Switch and listen at leisure (or however you like) ... with whatever music, or test tones, or whatever they like..... then also switch and listen "blinded" so you don't know which is which. Quantify the test with some type of AB or ABX "can I pick it" type of thing. This isn't always trivial to arrange.... but it is totally "possible" to do too. It is often seen that people do listening tests without all of the above points being met.... but this makes the results totally invalid. The best way to address the question of "can I hear the difference between A and B", is to really do the test of "can I hear the difference between A and B". Edited November 22, 2023 by davewantsmoore 2
davewantsmoore Posted November 22, 2023 Posted November 22, 2023 53 minutes ago, Rustee said: I havent done any back to back listening tests with and without the conversions as its a bit of a pain swapping the cables over. But I will in a little while (once I am familiar with the current sound) go back to full analogue and compare. Will be interesting. Two big issues will make this test invalid. By the time you have swapped over the cables, etc.... you will have "forgotten" what it sounded like. By swapping the cables over you will know which one you're listening to. Most people don't like to believe this is true, and the remaining people really don't like to believe it (heh). Rather than "quoting all the science which says it is true" .... is quite common that it is "shown in practise" to be true, when people do "sighted" or "delayed" type of testing and they can pick the difference.... and then when they do a test where there is no delay between the A and B samples, and they don't know which is which, (but will with them being able to listen as long and however they want, etc.) .... then they can't pick it. This all works back the other way too..... in the original testing method you might not be able to pick it .... but with a more controlled test (less, delay, less knowledge/expectation) you might statistically be able to get an edge on which is which. 1
davewantsmoore Posted November 22, 2023 Posted November 22, 2023 2 hours ago, Rustee said: Looks like 96khz through the miniDSP but drops to 48khz if using DL In a converter like the Flex uses, this makes practically zero difference, aside from cutting off frequencies >> 24kHz. Either way, the Flex wipes the floor with (~12dB better) processors from Storm Audio and Trinnov that cost >> $20k <shrug> 1
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