EAR 834P first impressions: interested in tube options

[RockRolley]

So, I've always wanted an EAR 834P. I recently bought some other well regarded phono stages (yes, I need an intervention), but when the 834P became available I really wanted to hear what it is capable of.

My first impression was 'The legends are true'!

I bought it from the original buyer who got out of vinyl some time ago and it had been safely stored since. To me, it looks like it received minimal use and was well taken care of when in use-close to new presentation inside and out. It still has original tubes, Edicron ECC83. These still seem viable to me but I don't have a tube tester. My initial impressions of the 834P are that the background is incredibly silent and also the attenuator is incredibly quiet and also nice to use. After some listening with original tubes I wanted to see what would be possible by introducing another brand tube into the mix. I was quite astonished by the impact one different tube can make and also very pleasantly surprised at the different flavours that can be gotten by trying the different tube in the different positions.

I'd be interested to hear any first hand experiences SNA members have with trying different brand tubes in an 834P. Some other forums have some info on this, but simply state what the tubes are and don't really give much indication of what the benefits and sonic qualities are.

I understand that tube positions are:

P1 is the input gain

P2 is the RIAA curve

P3 is the cathode-follower/output

 

TBH I don't really understand the significance of this besides the aural difference of rolling the tubes, but would be interested to hear more about this too.

 

 

I'd be interested to know people's experience of: which tube used, which position and also the differences it made. Bonus info would be music listened to, either specific song or simply genre, and other gear in the chain.

I had LP12 with OL tonearm Clear Audio MM cart>EAR 834P>Retrothermionic Black treasure/Golden Dragon Tube Pre>Radford STA25 Power Amp>IMF RSPMMKIV Speakers.

 

See some early impressions of mine below, first with original tubes, then trying one 1962 NOS Telefunken AX7 in different positions.

 

Brian Wilson: Love and Mercy, vinyl reissue (I know this recording like the back of my hand so it is a great reference recording for me)

 

EAR 834P MM stage: all Edicron ECC83 tubes

Weighty

Robust

Good vocal presentation

Cohesive

Warm as all get-out

Quiet background

Low surface noise on vinyl

I want some more definition from the strings

 

1962 NOS Telefunken AX7 in V1

BVs more refined and prominent

Percussion more at ease and up front

Highs coming through more

 

Telefunken in V2

Highs and mids way more prominent

Rounder presentation

Lost a little bottom end oomph

Percussion more noticeable

More natural but not as tubey

 

 

Telefunken in V3

A great combination of oomph and sweet but slightly rolled off highs

Tubey as can be.

I’d go with this in a heartbeat

 

See some pics below including a couple next to my Roon Rock for a bit of old school V/S new school fun

 

Edited October 4, 2023 by RockRolley

[aussievintage]

2 hours ago, RockRolley said:

I understand that tube positions are:

P1 is the input gain

P2 is the RIAA curve

P3 is the cathode-follower/output

 

 

Actually the RIAA curve is implented as negative feedback from the output of V3 to the input of V2 

 

 

Edited October 5, 2023 by aussievintage

[RockRolley]

24 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

 

 

Actually the RIAA curve is implented as negative feedback from the output of V3 to the input of V2 

 

 

Thank you for your input.

Unfortunately schematics are entirely indecipherable to me.

Are you in a position to say what valve positions 1, 2 & 3 are for and, if possible, what impact valve choice might have in these places? This is exactly why I wanted to start an SNA thread on this. I've been trawling other forums and am not sure about the info I've been trying to patch together from them.

Edited October 5, 2023 by RockRolley

[aussievintage]

1 hour ago, RockRolley said:

Thank you for your input.

Unfortunately schematics are entirely indecipherable to me.

Are you in a position to say what valve positions 1, 2 & 3 are for and, if possible, what impact valve choice might have in these places? This is exactly why I wanted to start an SNA thread on this. I've been trawling other forums and am not sure about the info I've been trying to patch together from them.

 

Well, the first position is a gain stage, and being the first in the chain, I would be expecting any differences to be amplified by the most by the rest of the circuit, and therefore make probably the most obvious and biggest difference to the overall sound.

 

The second position is another gain stage, but it is inside the feedback loop (more on that in a second), and also, has no following gain applied, so will make less difference to the sound. 

 

The last position has no gain (or more precisely a gain of one) so does not make the signal louder, but what it does is provide an amplification in the amount of drive - i.e. there is more current available to drive a lower input impedance in whatever equipment you connect this phono preamp to.   I would expect this last position to have the smallest effect on the sound.  It will perhaps have more influence of the sound when working hard into a particularly low impedance input in the connected equipment.

 

This output is also fed back to the input of the second stage via a resistor/capacitor network (marked in red below).  The negative feedback controls/sets the overall gain of V2 and V3,   but not evenly.  It sets different frequencies to different gains, and hence implements the funny sloping RIAA characteristic curve.

 

[MattyW]

Yes I had a lot of fun upgrading and rube rolling 834P preamp copies years ago. One of my good mates uses one which has Duelund JDM copper Foil, Jupiter copper foil and various other lovelty caps throughout along with solid core enameled wire and low mass Aeco RCA sockets. Perhaps the nicest sounding 834 I have ever heard. It's a wonderful pre and a boon for tube rollers given if you've 3x different brand tubes, that's actually 9 different sonic flavours depending on which position each tube is placed in. I can't think of another circuit off the top of my head allows such flexibility in tube rolling. The circuit reflects changes very well vs more complicated circuits also so it's an upgraders dream also. 

[Ian McP]

The very much non-definitive EAR 834P Modification Guide

from Thorsten Loesch (iFi designer and others)

https://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/108318.html

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=14323.0

 

[aussievintage]

7 minutes ago, MattyW said:

I can't think of another circuit off the top of my head allows such flexibility in tube rolling. The circuit reflects changes very well vs more complicated circuits also so it's an upgraders dream also. 

 

 

It is indeed very nice and very popular.   I would quietly suggest the one I build is better.   Instead of a feedback RIAA network, it uses separated passive RIAA filters between stages and no global negative feedback.  It is based on the original RCA tube manual circuit with added c athode follower when built as a separate device and not part of an integrated preamp.  The Hagerman Cornet is quite similar.

[MattyW]

One of my favourites was a Valab LCR1 Mk2 phono stage..... I really think a stage using inductors for the RIAA curve and tube output stage would be spectacular though those that are on the market were just more than I ever wanted to pay. I reckon it'd sound killer though..... In the meantime though I sold off all my LP's and playback equipment. Short of winning the lottery there's no coming back from that at this point.

Edited October 5, 2023 by MattyW

[RockRolley]

1 hour ago, aussievintage said:

 

Well, the first position is a gain stage, and being the first in the chain, I would be expecting any differences to be amplified by the most by the rest of the circuit, and therefore make probably the most obvious and biggest difference to the overall sound.

 

The second position is another gain stage, but it is inside the feedback loop (more on that in a second), and also, has no following gain applied, so will make less difference to the sound. 

 

The last position has no gain (or more precisely a gain of one) so does not make the signal louder, but what it does is provide an amplification in the amount of drive - i.e. there is more current available to drive a lower input impedance in whatever equipment you connect this phono preamp to.   I would expect this last position to have the smallest effect on the sound.  It will perhaps have more influence of the sound when working hard into a particularly low impedance input in the connected equipment.

 

This output is also fed back to the input of the second stage via a resistor/capacitor network (marked in red below).  The negative feedback controls/sets the overall gain of V2 and V3,   but not evenly.  It sets different frequencies to different gains, and hence implements the funny sloping RIAA characteristic curve.

 

Thanks again. That all makes good sense to me (although unfortunately the final paragraph goes a bit above my head).

[RockRolley]

19 minutes ago, MattyW said:

Yes I had a lot of fun upgrading and rube rolling 834P preamp copies years ago. One of my good mates uses one which has Duelund JDM copper Foil, Jupiter copper foil and various other lovelty caps throughout along with solid core enameled wire and low mass Aeco RCA sockets. Perhaps the nicest sounding 834 I have ever heard. It's a wonderful pre and a boon for tube rollers given if you've 3x different brand tubes, that's actually 9 different sonic flavours depending on which position each tube is placed in. I can't think of another circuit off the top of my head allows such flexibility in tube rolling. The circuit reflects changes very well vs more complicated circuits also so it's an upgraders dream also. 

Amazing! Thanks Matt, yes 9 flavours with three tubes is so cool. Do you remember any stand out tubes/combos?

[MattyW]

I think one of my favourites had 1x RCA black plate, 1x Telefunken smooth grey plate and maybe a PsVane in it though don't recall the order or even which caps I had in there at the time. The caps being run will have a big impact on which tube combo will sound best.

[SonicArt]

Good stuff Simon, I always wondered what the kits were like, especially if built with some quality components. Anyone built one of the chinese clones?

[MattyW]

This is the one my mate is running. It has a lovely quality circuit board in it which is ideal for upgrading/modding and plenty of space internally...... He went to town upgrading. 

 

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001958899028.html?

 

This is his stage after upgrades. I believe the 2x tubes covered in automotive damping are Duelund JDM copper foil though I could be wrong. He's running to Ei and 1x RCA black plate I believe

 

Edited October 5, 2023 by MattyW

[zenikoy]

Buried in this old controversial thread is my experience rolling some less exotic tubes. Still own and use it 7 years later. This and my Hagerman Bugle are my "lifer" phono stages.

 

 

Edited October 5, 2023 by zenikoy

[aussievintage]

14 minutes ago, MattyW said:

maybe a PsVane

 

I use a 12ax7 Psvane in the first position.      If you can get one, try a 12az7 for the cathode follower.

[Ian McP]

38 minutes ago, MattyW said:

One of my favourites was a Valab LCR1 Mk2 phono stage..... I really think a stage using inductors for the RIAA curve and tube output stage would be spectacular though those that are on the market were just more than I ever wanted to pay. I reckon it'd sound killer though..... In the meantime though I sold off all my LP's and playback equipment. Short of winning the lottery there's no coming back from that at this point.

the Valab LCR reappeared as this

https://www.kitsunehifi.com/product/kte-lcr-1-mk5-mk5s-mc-mm-mi-lcr-riaa-phono-stage/

[MattyW]

Just now, Ian McP said:

the Valab LCR reappeared as this

https://www.kitsunehifi.com/product/kte-lcr-1-mk5-mk5s-mc-mm-mi-lcr-riaa-phono-stage/

 

Yes, my mate who's running the 834 has the Kitsune LCR1 Mk5. I love the sound of it though overall he prefers the 834. I found the LCR to be best paired with either a tube integrated or tube pre..... Almost always need tubes somewhere or the magic is lost. My current sound system is the only one which manages to pull off tube free magic. Very difficult to achieve for a tube lover 

[RockRolley]

49 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

 

 

It is indeed very nice and very popular.   I would quietly suggest the one I build is better.   Instead of a feedback RIAA network, it uses separated passive RIAA filters between stages and no global negative feedback.  It is based on the original RCA tube manual circuit with added c athode follower when built as a separate device and not part of an integrated preamp.  The Hagerman Cornet is quite similar.

Any pics or links to your build, out of curiosity? 

[RockRolley]

36 minutes ago, SonicArt said:

Good stuff Simon, I always wondered what the kits were like, especially if built with some quality components. Anyone built one of the chinese clones?

Cheers, Mark, I’ve been close to buying a kit version many times, but really wanted to hear an original as a benchmark. I understand the SNA member retrothermionic builds a mean clone. 

Edited October 5, 2023 by RockRolley
Typo

[aussievintage]

25 minutes ago, RockRolley said:

Any pics or links to your build, out of curiosity? 

 

Each one is different. This one was the prototype, but I still use it regularly. Despite using "Jaycar quality" components, it still sounds great.

[xlr8or]

Very nice purchase Simon. I own the EAR 864B, which incorporates the same 834P phono stage. The original tubes that come with the unit are TdP labelled ECC83's manufactured by Ei in the former Niš factory in Yugoslavia. The Edicron tubes that have been fitted are probably an aftermarket re-tubed option.

 

Rolling the V1 tube would have the greatest impact in changing the sound signature. @PKay has the EAR phono box and can share his experiences rolling tubes. A Brimar 17mm long charcoal single notch anode plate angled rectangular getter 12AX7 from the early 1950's is highly recommended for the V1 position.

 

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/275992672097

[PKay]

45 minutes ago, xlr8or said:

Very nice purchase Simon. I own the EAR 864B, which incorporates the same 834P phono stage. The original tubes that come with the unit are TdP labelled ECC83's manufactured by Ei in the former Niš factory in Yugoslavia. The Edicron tubes that have been fitted are probably an aftermarket re-tubed option.

 

Rolling the V1 tube would have the greatest impact in changing the sound signature. @PKay has the EAR phono box and can share his experiences rolling tubes. A Brimar 17mm long charcoal single notch anode plate angled rectangular getter 12AX7 from the early 1950's is highly recommended for the V1 position.

 

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/275992672097

I really like some Mullard M8137 I bought from @Gryffles a pair from early 60's, wrinkled glass. The Brimars you recommended were excellent but seem to suit my Tron Convergence a bit more (for my listening preference).  V1 has the biggest impact as noted. 
 

The phonobox MM circuit is fabulous especially when you consider the price - mine sounds very good with a Stanton 881s.  The MC output is a step down so I would recommend a good SUT if you are using MC carts. 

[RockRolley]

15 hours ago, xlr8or said:

Very nice purchase Simon. I own the EAR 864B, which incorporates the same 834P phono stage. The original tubes that come with the unit are TdP labelled ECC83's manufactured by Ei in the former Niš factory in Yugoslavia. The Edicron tubes that have been fitted are probably an aftermarket re-tubed option.

 

Rolling the V1 tube would have the greatest impact in changing the sound signature. @PKay has the EAR phono box and can share his experiences rolling tubes. A Brimar 17mm long charcoal single notch anode plate angled rectangular getter 12AX7 from the early 1950's is highly recommended for the V1 position.

 

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/275992672097

Thanks, Kirk, 

It would be very interesting to hear the 864B. I hadn't come across Ei tubes before, but I did notice on another forum people saying they are a good match for the 834, so it makes sense that these may have been offered as an aftermarket re-tubed option.

Thanks for the Brimar recommendation. Did you try one in your 864B?

Cheers,

Simon

[MattyW]

Ei tubes were built in Yugoslavia using the old Telefunken tooling sold when Telefunken stopped making tubes in Germany. They have a very similar sound to Telefunken tubes though typically at a lesser cost. This is similar to Matsushita who purchased Mullards tooling when Mullard stopped making tubes in the UK. Those are known in various circles as the Japanese Mullards.

[RockRolley]

14 hours ago, PKay said:

I really like some Mullard M8137 I bought from @Gryffles a pair from early 60's, wrinkled glass. The Brimars you recommended were excellent but seem to suit my Tron Convergence a bit more (for my listening preference).  V1 has the biggest impact as noted. 
 

The phonobox MM circuit is fabulous especially when you consider the price - mine sounds very good with a Stanton 881s.  The MC output is a step down so I would recommend a good SUT if you are using MC carts. 

Thanks for your input, @PKay. I actually bought a Supratek phono stage from @Gryffles.

Re the MC stage in the 834, I haven't yet tried that with my Telefunken in the mix, but with the Ei tubes in, I preferred my Goldenage (Lundhal) SUT or @andyr's Paris Aksa head amp into the 834 MM stage over the built in MC stage with my usual reference recordings. BUT: for some reason my Analogue Productions copy of Belafonte at Carnegie Hall sounded absolutely fantastic on the 834 MC stage.

To be fair though, with the Paris Aksa, I was able to exactly match the impedance of my Benz micro cart, and the GA SUT not too far off.

Edited October 6, 2023 by RockRolley