Ported vs. Unported speakers

[rantan]

28 minutes ago, POV said:

vortexes of nonsense.

 

That is a fantastic phrase, applicable to many self proclaimed experts on the internet.

 

Do you mind if it borrow it periodically?

[POV]

10 minutes ago, rantan said:

 

That is a fantastic phrase, applicable to many self proclaimed experts on the internet.

 

Do you mind if it borrow it periodically?

Have at it.  It came to me when grading Masters students essays

[stereo coffee]

42 minutes ago, POV said:

Ok…I think I fallen into the trap of another one of your vortexes of nonsense.  My fault.

Tell me what you see here: 

 

[POV]

14 minutes ago, stereo coffee said:

Tell me what you see here: 

 

I see a video that is totally irrelevant to the subject matter and another step further into the vortex.  

[sir sanders zingmore]

@stereo coffee stay on topic please

[stereo coffee]

5 minutes ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

@stereo coffee stay on topic please

It is,  ...what @POV is not getting is that everything matters, and is to appreciate that everything contributes. To attain good low frequency reproduction begins at the beginning , with power supplies  and many wonderful attributes of analog circuitry, that needs to be very patiently understood ...   not presumed all is well,  and can be achieved somehow magically at the end.  

 

Only a few members have appreciated the acoustic suspension design, most have presumed that this is just a sealed cabinet, when it is so much more ,  Gale as example based the driver positioning on the Quad ESL57, and is one of very few acoustic suspension designs using further the internal air as a spring with two drivers, as one moves in the other moves out.   

 

 

[sir sanders zingmore]

11 hours ago, stereo coffee said:

It is,  ...what @POV is not getting is that everything matters, and is to appreciate that everything contributes. To attain good low frequency reproduction begins at the beginning , with

The topic is ported vs unported speakers. It is not 

 

11 hours ago, stereo coffee said:

 

 

power supplies  and many wonderful attributes of analog circuitry, that needs to be very patiently understood ...   

So, again, stay on topic

[LogicprObe]

On 29/10/2023 at 10:59 AM, POV said:

Do you mean the same speaker from the same designer with a ported and a sealed enclosure design or are you comparing different speakers?

 

Sealed always sound better to me...........so long as you can stump up the power.

[POV]

33 minutes ago, stereo coffee said:

It is,  ...what @POV is not getting is that everything matters, and is to appreciate that everything contributes. To attain good low frequency reproduction begins at the beginning , with power supplies  and many wonderful attributes of analog circuitry, that needs to be very patiently understood ...   not presumed all is well,  and can be achieved somehow magically at the end.  

 

Only a few members have appreciated the acoustic suspension design, most have presumed that this is just a sealed cabinet, when it is so much more ,  Gale as example based the driver positioning on the Quad ESL57, and is one of very few acoustic suspension designs using further the internal air as a spring with two drivers, as one moves in the other moves out.   

 

 

More nonsense from you.  It is not possible to overcome inherent room acoustics by tweaking power supplies, or using fringe current drive amplifiers or any other front bizarre component design you might put forward next. That’s not opinion, that’s fact and irrefutable at that!
 

Always best not to presume things friend.   I have a pair of Gales here.  I bought them as a bit of tribute to my friend Gordon @ozcal RIP who helped me immensely when I started out in this hobby and loved Gales very much.  So I’m very familiar with their designs and have actually heard a number of different versions.  I know that it also cannot overcome inherent room acoustics.

 

And I know that all of this is off-topic.  No more vortex from me…I’m out.

 

[March Audio]

Bass extension is extremely important to perceived sound quality.  All things being equal a more extended LF response will be preferred.

 

Sealed will usually have limited bass extension.  You can use DSP to boost  the LF and flatten the roll off, but this will quickly start to use lots more power and increase distortion.  The driver will easily run out of travel limiting dynamics and ultimate volume.

 

So with sealed you probably need to add a sub, in fact multiple subs to work effectively.  That's another whole can of worms to get that working well.

 

There is no definitive better solution with sealed v ported.  It depends on the implementation as to which has the least audible issues and most subjectively successful.  However there is no denying the limited bass extension of a basic sealed design. 

 

Just to complicate matters the room plays a part.  A great example was at the Melbourne show.  Our room had a significant mode around 30Hz.  Our big floorstander which is only 3dB down at 29Hz (anechoic) significantly excited this.  Our smaller stand mount PR speaker only midly so.  You could argue the stand mount was sounding better in the bass as a result.

 

So be careful to blame the Port as an issue, it could be just the extended LF response exciting room modes causing "loose" bass.

Edited October 31, 2023 by March Audio

[Grimmie]

Hmmm.. I'm very tempted to stay out of this, as the debate (often the case) is starting to unravel a bit and personalities, stubborn opinions and FACTS (damn them, they seem to change with each opinion expressed) are clouding an interesting discussion. Nevertheless this coment (red below) from Alan, a member who's comments I've always pinned my faith on, has kinda got me saying " that's not my experience". Page 1 I posted a pic of my SGR 3.2's, which I love, and stand by my declaration that they simply do not need a sub-woofer and are capable of producing prodigious deeep bass as dictated by the recording. - From the SGR manual, which unfortunately does not give the bass cab internal volume but as you may see from the pic below is pretty large but not desperately so.

 

2x 10" long-throw, low-distortion paper cone woofer optimised for sealed box use. Purpose designed and custom built.

Bass Enclosure

Double constrained layer damped construction consisting of dual marine plywood internal walls with a high-density external

polymer skin.

Extensive interlocking bracing system, marine ply.

Internally treated with SGR Selective MemBrane (SMB) technology to eliminate standing waves and box induced colorations.

 

Surely at the end of the day, if the design of the speaker has been done by those with sufficient knowledge with component parts thoroughly optimised and produced with care and best practice both of these designs will satisfy. I do know that my speakers don't display the limitation you've alluded to here though Alan.

 

54 minutes ago, March Audio said:

Bass extension is extremely important to perceived sound quality.  All things being equal a more extended LF response will be preferred.

 

Sealed will usually have limited bass extension.  You can use DSP to boost  the LF and flatten the roll off, but this will quickly start to use lots more power and increase distortion.  The driver will easily run out of travel limiting dynamics and ultimate volume.

 

So with sealed you probably need to add a sub, in fact multiple subs to work effectively.  That's another whole can of worms to get that working well.

 

There is no definitive better solution with sealed v ported.  It depends on the implementation as to which has the least audible issues and most subjectively successful.  However there is no denying the limited bass extension of a basic sealed design. 

 

Just to complicate matters the room plays a part.  A great example was at the Melbourne show.  Our room had a significant mode around 30Hz.  Our big floorstander which is only 3dB down at 29Hz (anechoic) significantly excited this.  Our smaller stand mount PR speaker only midly so.  You could argue the stand mount was sounding better in the bass as a result.

 

So be careful to blame the Port as an issue, it could be just the extended LF response exciting room modes causing "loose" bass.

 

[March Audio]

14 minutes ago, Grimmie said:

Hmmm.. I'm very tempted to stay out of this, as the debate (often the case) is starting to unravel a bit and personalities, stubborn opinions and FACTS (damn them, they seem to change with each opinion expressed) are clouding an interesting discussion. Nevertheless this coment (red below) from Alan, a member who's comments I've always pinned my faith on, has kinda got me saying " that's not my experience"

 

Dont get me wrong, I haven't said that it's impossible to design a sealed box speaker that has deep bass extension. Just that its "usually" the case that they will have limited extension.  Certainly the case for a given size.  The fact that the vast majority of speakers out there use a port to extend the bass confirms this.  

 

You will need larger drivers with longer throw and possibly larger cab to acheive the same extension as with a much smaller port design. Which is probably the better way to frame it.

 

Just out of curiosity, what is the F3 and F6 of the SGR?

 

 

Edited October 31, 2023 by March Audio

[Grimmie]

Er, I'll have to get back to you on that one. I hope your the patient sort.

[March Audio]

1 minute ago, Grimmie said:

Er, I'll have to get back to you on that one. I hope your the patient sort.

 No worries.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't they also active with what looks like analogue bass EQ?

[Grimmie]

Indeed they are, they have all manner of analogue EQ through all frequencies and for my sins, I must confess to having raised the bass at the lowest levels. I did feel a little guilty at wanting to do this but it was the venerable Tasso who said "you've paid for it, you like it, if it sounds good, do it". Having said that, set to flat, there's adequate bass but can I help being greedy?

[Grimmie]

One of my favorite test tracks is 'Barbituric Blues' by Laurent Garnier, the bass on that is the guiltiest of hi-fi pleasures and absolves all blame from sub-woofer use or bass boosting.

[Keith_W]

Even designers as talented as Stuart from SGR don't know how their speakers will perform in your listening room. For ultimate performance, I disagree with the notion that the speaker should be full range and cover bass frequencies with no subwoofer is necessary. A full range speaker is nice if you are space limited or unable / don't want to deploy subwoofers. In other words, it's a compromise solution. Where it is not a compromise is if you have a smaller room (explained later). 

 

The reason why is because speakers should be placed where they produce the best stereo image. This may or may not be the best position for bass generation. I grant that in smaller rooms, bass operates in pressure mode (i.e. wavelengths longer than the the longest mode the dimensions of the room will support), so you won't need subs. However, if you have a larger room, you would benefit from subwoofers. This frees you from the constraints of speaker placement along with several other nice benefits which I won't delve into in this thread, but you all know what they are. So ... if you are going to use subs anyway, why bother with ported speakers with all their problems? 

[Addicted to music]

7 hours ago, March Audio said:

 

 

Just to complicate matters the room plays a part.  A great example was at the Melbourne show.  Our room had a significant mode around 30Hz.  Our big floorstander which is only 3dB down at 29Hz (anechoic) significantly excited this.  Our smaller stand mount PR speaker only midly so.  You could argue the stand mount was sounding better in the bass as a result.

 

So be careful to blame the Port as an issue, it could be just the extended LF response exciting room modes causing "loose" bass.

and this is exactly what was happening when we played that track!   
When the bookseller was placed, it did the room justice.

[playdough]

6 hours ago, Grimmie said:

 

 

2x 10" long-throw, low-distortion paper cone woofer optimised for sealed box use. Purpose designed and custom built.

Bass Enclosure

Double constrained layer damped construction consisting of dual marine plywood internal walls with a high-density external

polymer skin.

Extensive interlocking bracing system, marine ply.

Internally treated with SGR Selective MemBrane (SMB) technology to eliminate standing waves and box induced colorations.

 

Surely at the end of the day, if the design of the speaker has been done by those with sufficient knowledge with component parts thoroughly optimised and produced with care and best practice both of these designs will satisfy. I do know that my speakers don't display the limitation you've alluded to here though Alan.

 

 

Such a Master Class speaker. Would never fail to impress, particularly sound design. When they are this "monumentally" adaptable to any Lounge, they become very easy to integrate anywhere.

Lust after things like this. 

Edited October 31, 2023 by playdough

[playdough]

8 hours ago, March Audio said:

So be careful to blame the Port as an issue, it could be just the extended LF response exciting room modes causing "loose" bass.

Similar experience.

Would be very hard to integrate a large ported speaker in a solid brick and cement shoe box room at the HiFi Show. 

Might need @Keith_W ' s shirt and jumper to short out the ports.  Most basic type of EQ there is.

 

(my attempt at humour) 

Edited October 31, 2023 by playdough

[playdough]

1 hour ago, Keith_W said:

why bother with ported speakers with all their problems

If you have a nice old weather board house, below 40Hz the construction will act like a huge bass trap. So if you are in the know about this anomaly it may well actually dictate speaker choice. 

Neighbours may not love you however as those long wavelengths from the port can travel a very long way.

Big ported sound fabulous in a lightly constructed home, straight out of the box they were delivered in, minimal EQ, no subs. Always a winner.

 

A speaker enthusiast should never think ill of any design, it's the adaptability of any type for a given situation that becomes the overriding factor.

The elephant in the room here, is the room

 

 

Edited October 31, 2023 by playdough

[joz]

So perhaps one sealed sub in a system may have some limitations with extension.

So why not have 8

[POV]

2 hours ago, Keith_W said:

Even designers as talented as Stuart from SGR don't know how their speakers will perform in your listening room. For ultimate performance, I disagree with the notion that the speaker should be full range and cover bass frequencies with no subwoofer is necessary. A full range speaker is nice if you are space limited or unable / don't want to deploy subwoofers. In other words, it's a compromise solution. Where it is not a compromise is if you have a smaller room (explained later). 

 

The reason why is because speakers should be placed where they produce the best stereo image. This may or may not be the best position for bass generation. I grant that in smaller rooms, bass operates in pressure mode (i.e. wavelengths longer than the the longest mode the dimensions of the room will support), so you won't need subs. However, if you have a larger room, you would benefit from subwoofers. This frees you from the constraints of speaker placement along with several other nice benefits which I won't delve into in this thread, but you all know what they are.

I was 100% with you, totally agree with the quotes section.  People make the very fundamental mistake of think that if the bass response of their mains goes low enough then they don’t need a subwoofer, but this totally misses the principle advantage of adding well designed, well integrated, quality subwoofers.

 

The optimal positioning for main speakers for imaging, soundstage, dimensionality etc is almost never the optimal position for sub bass so you end up needing to compromise.  By taking the sub bass away from the mains and utilising subs you can have the best of both worlds in room.

 

And then this?  
 

2 hours ago, Keith_W said:

So ... if you are going to use subs anyway, why bother with ported speakers with all their problems?

 

[March Audio]

7 hours ago, Grimmie said:

Indeed they are, they have all manner of analogue EQ through all frequencies and for my sins, I must confess to having raised the bass at the lowest levels. I did feel a little guilty at wanting to do this 

 

Oh don't feel guilty.  I have no issue with tone controls because every recording has different tonality..  

[March Audio]

3 hours ago, Keith_W said:

So ... if you are going to use subs anyway, why bother with ported speakers with all their problems? 

 

All their problems?  I don't think it's actually been established that this is the case.

 

What you are really alluding to is that there are many situational variables such that a generalisation is not accurate.

 

Subs arecdifficult to integrate properly. Lumping a single sub in parallel with your mains rarely works  well. You need multiple subs in right places in the room.  You will still need DSP to really nail it.

 

I'm not saying subs are a wrong solution, it's probably the right way to go ultimately, but I would equally say "all the problems of subs".  It's an impractical option for possibly the majority of people.  Size, space, complexity, WAF etc.

Edited October 31, 2023 by March Audio