Ported vs. Unported speakers

[playdough]

39 minutes ago, joz said:

So perhaps one sealed sub in a system may have some limitations with extension.

So why not have 8

Now that's just showboating. 

[Addicted to music]

47 minutes ago, joz said:

So perhaps one sealed sub in a system may have some limitations with extension.

So why not have 8

some will argue that they only come with 2 ears

 

All seriousness I missed listening to them @joz

Edited October 31, 2023 by Addicted to music

[klm]

1 hour ago, joz said:

So perhaps one sealed sub in a system may have some limitations with extension.

So why not have 8

I spy with my little eye a pair of old Martin Logan monoliths hanging around in the background. They were the first high end speakers that sent me on this ridiculously expensive path of enjoyment.

[POV]

37 minutes ago, March Audio said:

 

All their problems?  I don't think it's actually been established that this is the case.

 

What you are really alluding to is that there are many situational variables such that a generalisation is not accurate.

 

Subs arecdifficult to integrate properly. Lumping a single sub in parallel with your mains rarely works  well. You need multiple subs in right places in the room.  You will still need DSP to really nail it.

 

I'm not saying subs are a wrong solution, it's probably the right way to go ultimately, but I would equally say "all the problems of subs".  It's an impractical option for possibly the majority of people.  Size, space, complexity, WAF etc.

Correct.  Positioning and integration of subwoofers is not easy and doing it well to achieve good bass linearity at listening position with seamless integration and no localisation pretty well always requires DSP.  Enter DIRAC

[davewantsmoore]

10 hours ago, March Audio said:

You will need larger drivers with longer throw and possibly larger cab to acheive the same extension as with a much smaller port design. Which is probably the better way to frame it.

 

<shrug> Exactly.

 

Same driver size with double the excursion.

2x the same driver

Larger cabinet and/or EQ to mitigate the LF rolloff (likely both)

 

I think one of the main reasons why ported for many commercial designs, is if sealed woofers were substituted, the driver correction at LF required to get the right response is impractical with a passive filter network.... which means "active" EQ.... which means the design can no longer be a "passive" speaker that is sold on the premise of "take it home and connect it to your amp, done".

 

 

Vented boxes are hard to design, and often problematic (poorly designed) .... but it's easy to see why they exist.

[cheekyboy]

1 hour ago, joz said:

So perhaps one sealed sub in a system may have some limitations with extension.

So why not have 8

 

Hello Joe, it's been way too long since I've been in that room to enjoy what the sensational Illuminators can do. There are some here advocating the use of subwoofers with any sealed floorstanders, but I can't imagine what the addition of a couple of subwoofers would do in your room........absolutely nothing I would suggest.

 

BTW, the Illuminators technically have 4 sealed subs [2 per side] as the 2 drivers in each sealed enclosure are coupled to each other.

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

Edited November 1, 2023 by cheekyboy

[Cloth Ears]

1 minute ago, davewantsmoore said:

Vented boxes are hard to design, and often problematic (poorly designed) .... but it's easy to see why they exist.

Actually, not hard to design. But you are limited to a few specific alignments, otherwise you do get poor design. If you've got your driver in the right sized enclosure and the right length port, then you should have a sound fairly close to what can be achieved with sealed. But if you arbitrarily then go an change the port length (as some suggest) or stuff it with a sock (as some others have said), then you are changing the design and the response.

Sealed are really good, if you can afford large boxes, or really strong drivers and large amps (power-wise).

I actually have two-way ported mains, but they're actively crossed above the port's loudest frequency to a pair of sealed bass boxes. And I have a big Klipsch 15" subwoofer (slot ported). I like it. And I can also use it the make explosions sound good in movies!

[stereo coffee]

1 hour ago, March Audio said:

 

Oh don't feel guilty.  I have no issue with tone controls because every recording has different tonality..  

Which should be heard as is. 

[joz]

46 minutes ago, klm said:

I spy with my little eye a pair of old Martin Logan monoliths hanging around in the background. They were the first high end speakers that sent me on this ridiculously expensive path of enjoyment.

You certainly do, they were to be a project crossing over to an active sub while taking their bass driver out of the system. But a friend just loved and wanted them badly.

They we’re just lovely within their bass abilities.

[POV]

5 minutes ago, cheekyboy said:

 

Hello Joe, it's been way too long since I've been in that room to enjoy what the sensational Illuminators can do. There are some here advocating the use of subwoofers with any sealed floorstanders, but I can't imagine what the addition of a couple of subwoofers would do in your room........absolutely nothing I would suggest.

 

BTW, the Illuminators technically have 4 sealed subs [2 per side] as the 2 drivers in each sealed enclosure are coupled to each other.

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

As all rooms, it would improve bass linearity.  That’s not to say that it’s not good already, I’m sure the system sounds great,  but I’m yet to hear a system in any room at any price that hasn’t benefited from the addition of quality subs (well positioned, integrated, and eq’d)

[Cloth Ears]

7 minutes ago, stereo coffee said:

Which should be heard as is. 

Why?

[stereo coffee]

4 minutes ago, Cloth Ears said:

Why?

The focus should be to do everything possible to hear the recording , not something unintended by the artist.  

[joz]

And I have another 8x 12” subs waiting to be boxed.

Hmmmm?
Possible overkill?

Not sure about configuration.

[rantan]

23 minutes ago, stereo coffee said:

not something unintended by the artist. 

 

No offence intended, but the whole as the artist intended  thing (or variants thereof ) is so cliched it becomes meaningless, given the nobody who was not in the studio at the time would have any idea what sound was intended.

[stereo coffee]

2 minutes ago, rantan said:

 

No offence intended, but the whole as the artist intended  thing (or variants thereof ) is so cliched it becomes meaningless, given the nobody who was not in the studio at the time would have any idea what sound was intended.

 

[playdough]

47 minutes ago, joz said:

Not sure about configuration.

Just an idea, build a quad box, sealed. Front firing. 

Built a similar of thing that would fit behind the bench seat of an extra cab ute. 80  litres from memory

It was tapered top to bottom by 50mm, worked out a sensational enclosure. Noted in operation was it was reasonably efficient (for 8" drivers), more so than a pair of enclosures, unless they were stacked.  Ended with a pair of quad 8" subs, very, very cool.

I'd build them again, but I'm stuck with these fridge boxes and simplicity/efficiency. 

8 x 12" drivers, mad, will be fun 

Edited November 1, 2023 by playdough

[cheekyboy]

43 minutes ago, POV said:

As all rooms, it would improve bass linearity.  That’s not to say that it’s not good already, I’m sure the system sounds great,  but I’m yet to hear a system in any room at any price that hasn’t benefited from the addition of quality subs (well positioned, integrated, and eq’d)

 

Hello Drew,

 

I've heard many systems running single or multiple subs with both sealed and ported loudspeakers and with one or two rare exceptions, I've preferred their sound with the subs turned off. It's not an easy task to position and integrate sub woofers into a two channel music system and most I've heard have got it wrong and they would have been better off not introducing the subs in the first place.

 

The SGR Illuminators that Joz has are truly incredible loudspeakers and particularly so in terms of their bass reproduction, which I recall as being full, very deep and flat with no deviation that I could hear. With all due respect, I think you'd struggle to improve the bass linearity with the addition of subs to this system, but I must defer to your experience in this regard.

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

[davewantsmoore]

1 hour ago, joz said:

Possible overkill?

Not sure about configuration.

If you need to improve the bass response, then multiple sources is what helps.    Put as many as possible (eg. 8x boxes, each with 1x12") far from the main speakers.

[davewantsmoore]

21 minutes ago, cheekyboy said:

I think you'd struggle to improve the bass linearity

Assuming the speaker has flat bass (down to it's lower cutoff), which any competently design speaker does .... then the bass "linearity" is dictated by the room.   (I assume you know this, this is just anyone else reading along).

So if there is a problem with the bass frequency response.... then more bass sources, spaced away from the main speakers, can help this.

 

But it is right to note that integrating subwoofers isn't trivial.... and if it's just more woofers, for the sake of it (and not to address a specific problem) ... then perhaps it is much more likely to be backward step.  <shrug>

 

Having woofers up high near the ceiling (as the Illuminator do), is good.

[rantan]

1 hour ago, stereo coffee said:

 

 

Yes.

This is what Jimi intended but how do you know what he intended. You were not at the studio.  There are so many other factors, that by the time the LP or CD arrives and inserted into your system you would have no idea what the sound was like on that day.

[cheekyboy]

1 hour ago, davewantsmoore said:

Assuming the speaker has flat bass (down to it's lower cutoff), which any competently design speaker does .... then the bass "linearity" is dictated by the room.   (I assume you know this, this is just anyone else reading along).

So if there is a problem with the bass frequency response.... then more bass sources, spaced away from the main speakers, can help this.

 

But it is right to note that integrating subwoofers isn't trivial.... and if it's just more woofers, for the sake of it (and not to address a specific problem) ... then perhaps it is much more likely to be backward step.  <shrug>

 

Having woofers up high near the ceiling (as the Illuminator do), is good.

Hello davewantsmore, I don’t have a lot of experience in trying to integrate subwoofers into two channel systems, even though I seem to have blended well a pair of 10” sealed subs with a pair of 2 way standmounts in a second system I have here.

 

It has been many years since I’ve listened to Joe’s Illuminators, but my aural memory of sitting in or near the sweet spot and also standing at several other points in the room, was what my comment was based on. As I said to POV and I would reiterate with you too, I must defer to your far greater experience and any improvement in the bass performance of the Illuminators in Joe’s room, would indeed be remarkable.

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

Edited November 1, 2023 by cheekyboy

[Grimmie]

2 hours ago, stereo coffee said:

The focus should be to do everything possible to hear the recording , not something unintended by the artist.  

 

It would be wonderful, both for the artist and for us, the listening public, if what the said artist played on the day and intended as a recorded performance did indeed come out as they wished. SO MUCH happens in between their playing and singing and our needle dropping / pressing play that it never happens. They may be happy with the result and may take part in much of the production process but inevitably the whole process is not perfect and will result in imperfection.

 

It may well be that if Bugge Wesseltoft (AKA nu-jazz god) came to my place he would be very happy with the way his albums sound on my system because of the way I have it set using the EQ tools available. (Quote from imaginary Bugge;) "Jeez, Ged, that sounds better than the way that useless sound engineer / producer / mastering engineer / pressing plant...etc, etc. put it out! Was never happy with how they butchered it"

 

Or maybe not.

[March Audio]

3 hours ago, stereo coffee said:

Which should be heard as is. 

 

When audio recording studios start using consistent (calibrated) monitoring systems, and when you can take that calibration through to the home replay system, (just like with film/video production) I will agree.

 

Until then the quality and sound of the recording and "what the artist heard" will be all over the place

[Ars Paart]

Is it vortexes or vortices? Being a bit of a pedant I prefer the second, but whatever they're called people need to stop getting sucked into them.

[rantan]

33 minutes ago, Grimmie said:

It would be wonderful, both for the artist and for us, the listening public, if what the said artist played on the day and intended as a recorded performance did indeed come out as they wished. SO MUCH happens in between their playing and singing and our needle dropping / pressing play that it never happens. They may be happy with the result and may take part in much of the production process but inevitably the whole process is not perfect and will result in imperfection.

 

@stereo coffee

 

THIS.