Ported vs. Unported speakers

[Satanica]

3 hours ago, stereo coffee said:

The focus should be to do everything possible to hear the recording , not something unintended by the artist.  

 

Yeah I agree, like hearing the effects of one's far less than optimal listening environment.

[stereo coffee]

48 minutes ago, rantan said:

 

Yes.

This is what Jimi intended but how do you know what he intended. You were not at the studio.  There are so many other factors, that by the time the LP or CD arrives and inserted into your system you would have no idea what the sound was like on that day.

Eddie Kramer explains at page 217 of the book Electric Gypsy : "He knew exactly what he was doing .  Every overdub, every backward guitar solo , every double tracked thing was very carefully worked out " page 276 "On remixing he'd have such a set idea of what he wanted a record to sound like that he'd remix a song 300 times. W'ed remix a song for 10 hours , all night all week.  As to CD or LP transfers he expressed dissatisfaction referring to the way some tracks were cut. Jimi refers to a 3D sound on Electric Ladyland  with the track All along the Watchtower   , which  had notation "special phase effects on this tape - do not change phase " But other interpretations would say that it was a song Jimi was so passionate about he was all consumed trying to record a perfect version https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Along_the_Watchtower

[Keith_W]

3 hours ago, cheekyboy said:

It has been many years since I’ve listened to Joe’s Illuminators, but my aural memory of sitting in or near the sweet spot and also standing at several other points in the room, was what my comment was based on. As I said to POV and I would reiterate with you too, I must defer to your far greater experience and any improvement in the bass performance of the Illuminators in Joe’s room, would indeed be remarkable.

 

If i'm not mistaken, I think that Stuart set them up himself in Joe's room. 

[joz]

1 hour ago, stereo coffee said:

Eddie Kramer explains at page 217 of the book Electric Gypsy : "He knew exactly what he was doing .  Every overdub, every backward guitar solo , every double tracked thing was very carefully worked out " page 276 "On remixing he'd have such a set idea of what he wanted a record to sound like that he'd remix a song 300 times. W'ed remix a song for 10 hours , all night all week.  As to CD or LP transfers he expressed dissatisfaction referring to the way some tracks were cut. Jimi refers to a 3D sound on Electric Ladyland  with the track All along the Watchtower   , which  had notation "special phase effects on this tape - do not change phase " But other interpretations would say that it was a song Jimi was so passionate about he was all consumed trying to record a perfect version https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Along_the_Watchtower

 

In which room and which system would it sound excatly the same other than at the studio's mixing desk

[joz]

1 minute ago, Keith_W said:

 

If i'm not mistaken, I think that Stuart set them up himself in Joe's room. 

 

Yes setup measured and tuned insitu.

[cheekyboy]

17 minutes ago, Keith_W said:

 

If i'm not mistaken, I think that Stuart set them up himself in Joe's room. 

Hello Keith, yes, that is my understanding, so loudspeaker positioning and bass linearity would have been taken into account I’m certain.

 

The times I’ve heard Joe’s Illuminators I don’t recall hearing any variations in bass response, but whether the addition of subwoofers to that system would improve the bass linearity as has been suggested, would be just speculation at best I feel.

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

Edited November 1, 2023 by cheekyboy

[andyr]

17 minutes ago, cheekyboy said:

The times I’ve heard Joe’s Illuminators I don’t recall hearing any variations in bass response, but whether the addition of subwoofers to that system would improve the bass linearity as has been suggested, would be just speculation at best I feel.

 

 

What do you mean by "bass linearity" Keith?  

 

I have no doubt the Illuminators deliver a prodigious, even bass line.

 

But do they enable you to feel the 16Hz organ tone in Bach's organ music (which my Paul Spencer-designed subs certainly do)?  That seems to me to be not a question of "bass linearity" - but of bass extension!

 

[stereo coffee]

42 minutes ago, joz said:

 

In which room and which system would it sound excatly the same other than at the studio's mixing desk

The effort is to do this in your own living space, and is largely achievable with the right equipment. The recording studio would more likely be heard as individual tracks not the finished release. So your living space /room is one step ahead, Playing the CD or LP as it is . Ported or Unported , you are free to experiment, 

[Addicted to music]

7 minutes ago, andyr said:

 

What do you mean by "bass linearity" Keith?  

 

I have no doubt the Illuminators deliver a prodigious, even bass line.

 

But do they enable you to feel the 16Hz organ tone in Bach's organ music (which my Paul Spencer-designed subs certainly do)?  That seems to me to be not a question of "bass linearity" - but of bass extension!

 

I heard a recording of church organs played on @joz rig,  standing 3-4mtrs away it was like standing in front of the real thing…… And yes I’ve experienced real organs being played in a  church for a funeral.

[rantan]

[andyr]

Just now, Addicted to music said:

I heard a recording of church organs played on @joz rig, standing 3-4mtrs away it was like standing in front of the real thing…… And yes I’ve experienced real organs being played in a church for a funeral.

 

Excellent!  

 

However, I would just mention ... not all organ music makes use of the 16Hz (32'!!) pipe.

 

[rantan]

5 minutes ago, stereo coffee said:

So your living space /room is one step ahead

 

Honestly , for my sanity, I give up

[VanArn]

Please someone wake up a moderator and end all this diatribe.

[cheekyboy]

25 minutes ago, andyr said:

 

What do you mean by "bass linearity" Keith?  

 

I have no doubt the Illuminators deliver a prodigious, even bass line.

 

But do they enable you to feel the 16Hz organ tone in Bach's organ music (which my Paul Spencer-designed subs certainly do)?  That seems to me to be not a question of "bass linearity" - but of bass extension!

 

 

Quote

As all rooms, it would improve bass linearity.  That’s not to say that it’s not good already, I’m sure the system sounds great,  but I’m yet to hear a system in any room at any price that hasn’t benefited from the addition of quality subs (well positioned, integrated, and eq’d)

 

Hello Andy,

 

I don't mean anything by "bass linearity" other than what if infers and I made reference to it because it follows on from my last couple of posts and my original response to Drew @POV when he made the statement that I've quoted above in response to one of my earlier posts. He was saying that the addition of subs to any system regardless of price would be an improvement.

 

I really can't speak to your Bach organ music I'm afraid, but I guess you could always ask Paul himself, as he has been in Joe's room with me on more than one occasion, albeit many years ago, and he would be able to give you an accurate comparison I'd reckon. I would agree though that your example is indeed 'bass extension', but I never mentioned bass extension in any of my posts here. With regard to the bass linearity and specifically in Joe's system, I have said that my aural memory tells me that I never heard any variations, non-linear, in bass response from the Illuminators in that room.

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

Edited November 1, 2023 by cheekyboy

[Addicted to music]

14 minutes ago, rantan said:

 

Honestly , for my sanity, I give up

 

@rantan

 

its OK,  I’ll do it for you 

[stereo coffee]

11 minutes ago, Addicted to music said:

 

@rantan

 

its OK,  I’ll do it for you 

How is this related to the topic ?  

[Addicted to music]

26 minutes ago, andyr said:

 

Excellent!  

 

However, I would just mention ... not all organ music makes use of the 16Hz (32'!!) pipe.

 

As I said I didn’t do the measurements of @joz rig,  so i couldn’t answer that,  however one thing is for sure,  usually with the electronics between source and amplifier there is not one set up I’ve seen where they do not employ caps to isolate the source such as DAC and preamplifier,  the value of the cap will usually ensure lower freq do not extend below 20hz, they are there to isolate circuitry and to protect from DC offsets and drifts….

[joz]

Anywhooo!

Back when I was in talks with Stuart talking about an all sealed system. It was obvious that 2x 12” drivers or even 4 in a sealed box may  not  go loud enough at the extension I was after. My room isn’t your average listening room or lounge. 
The space would be described as open plan with dimensions approximately,

3.3h x 6w x nearly 20m deep.

it’s not a small intimate space which loads bass. The 12s have the extension I was after  but needed more SPL down low so adding  more sub drivers was the answer in this case. Insitu they were measured and had some EQ applied to remove some floor bounce and I suppose any other peaks. Luckily no nulls to deal with. So far the only limit I faced has been running out of watts and amps going into protection.

I would like 1000watts/ side for the subs and 500 watts/ side for the bass drivers. But hey the only time that happens is when I have a GTG, so not to often. But it is so nice to have deep bass which is clean, articulate and tuneful.

Edited November 1, 2023 by joz

[andyr]

37 minutes ago, cheekyboy said:

I don't mean anything by "bass linearity" other than what if infers

 

Aah but what does "bass linearity" infer, Keith?

 

To me it means a constant listening level of bass - no annoying peaks or troughs.

 

But is it like this down to 40hz?  30Hz?  20Hz?  Or lower?

 

That's why, AFAIAC, bass extension needs to be mentioned, when you talk about "bass linearity".

 

14 minutes ago, Addicted to music said:

usually with the electronics between source and amplifier there is not one set up I’ve seen where they do not employ caps to isolate the source such as DAC and preamplifier, the value of the cap will usually ensure lower freq do not extend below 20hz, they are there to isolate circuitry and to protect from DC offsets and drifts….

 

As I'm sure you understand, Peter ... coupling caps are there to stop DC offset in one component ... flowing into the next component.

 

However, some amp mfrs proudly proclaim they are "DC-coupled" - ie. employ a DC-offset mechanism in the circuit, so they don't need to use coupling capacitors.  A wonderful thing - given all caps impose their sound signature on the signal passing through them.

 

But IME, when coupling caps are used ... they are not sized to limit the LF response to 20Hz.  Then again, my experience is limited to Hugh Dean's amps & preamps over the last 20 years ... so maybe other mfrs do skimp on cap values?

 

[cheekyboy]

Quote

Aah but what does "bass linearity" infer, Keith?

@andyr

Hello Andy,

 

Not me that brought it up originally, but I would guess the inference would be bass delivered in a linear fashion with no variations or anomalies in the reproduction of said bass, which is of course a product of the room, provided the loudspeakers are indeed well designed and sorted in the first place.

 

Quote

To me it means a constant listening level of bass - no annoying peaks or troughs.

 

Yep, that sounds like a a fair assumption to me.

 

Quote

But is it like this down to 40hz?  30Hz?  20Hz?  Or lower?

 

Well, that would be a product of the loudspeakers and also the additional subs if they were to be introduced to the system. Thus, in trying to achieve 'bass linearity' as we have agreed to understand it, you would be working within the limitations of the bass extension the particular loudspeakers were capable of. This would also mean the limitations of the introduced subs if that was the case, but you would be doing nothing to try and extend that bass response to beyond the loudspeakers limitations, would you?

 

Quote

That's why, AFAIAC, bass extension needs to be mentioned, when you talk about "bass linearity".

 

Fine, but apart from mentioning the limitation of whatever loudspeakers are being discussed, in what context would you be mentioning 'bass extension' when talking about 'bass linearity'?

If you're referring to Joe's Illuminators for example though, I would stand corrected, but I'd also be fairly sure that they would be playing flat down to 20Hz and as I said earlier, my aural memory would agree with that specification.

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

Edited November 1, 2023 by cheekyboy

[POV]

5 hours ago, Ars Paart said:

Is it vortexes or vortices? Being a bit of a pedant I prefer the second, but whatever they're called people need to stop getting sucked into them.

I think you are correct @Ars Paart.  I do believe that vortices is technically the correct plural for vortex.

[POV]

5 hours ago, Satanica said:

 

Yeah I agree, like hearing the effects of one's far less than optimal listening environment.

So much this.  The argument that one should avoid DSP in order to ‘preserve the purity of the signal’ whilst ignoring the impact of room acoustics is simply nonsensical.

 

I see stereo coffee has taken us on another ride down off topic road.

[POV]

3 hours ago, cheekyboy said:

Hello Keith, yes, that is my understanding, so loudspeaker positioning and bass linearity would have been taken into account I’m certain.

 

The times I’ve heard Joe’s Illuminators I don’t recall hearing any variations in bass response, but whether the addition of subwoofers to that system would improve the bass linearity as has been suggested, would be just speculation at best I feel.

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

I’m sure Stuart did a fine job of this.  The point however is that this is invariably a compromise, where you look for best combination of all the factors influenced by positioning a loud speaker.

 

As an experiment it would be really interesting to get Stuart involved in adding some seperate subs and see how he would would change the positioning of the speakers when not needing to consider sub bass performance.  Of course I could be wrong but would be almost prepared to bet anything it would change his approach.

 

As I’ve said, I have no doubt that the system sounds amazing in its current configuration.

 

[Addicted to music]

1 hour ago, andyr said:

 

 

However, some amp mfrs proudly proclaim they are "DC-coupled" - ie. employ a DC-offset mechanism in the circuit, so they don't need to use coupling capacitors.  A wonderful thing - given all caps impose their sound signature on the signal passing through 

 

 

Caps do  introduce there short fall to SQ.

There are not a lot of manufactures use a circuit to offset DC,  those who do go back to employing caps, and there are very good reasons to do this.  An example is the OPPO 95 player that went without using caps to using caps, because when connecting to certain brands that are not well engineered usually causes problems that require warranty claims, in the case of OPPO this is exactly what happened.  And there ae alot of brands who are cowboys in this hobby.....

 

2 hours ago, andyr said:

 

 

But IME, when coupling caps are used ... they are not sized to limit the LF response to 20Hz.  Then again, my experience is limited to Hugh Dean's amps & preamps over the last 20 years ... so maybe other mfrs do skimp on cap values?

 

 

yes only In your opinion, to go down to below 20Hz you need a very big value that doesn't justify the means.....  you may feel 16hz, whether you hear it is another story.

[andyr]

1 minute ago, Addicted to music said:

yes only In your opinion, to go down to below 20Hz you need a very big value that doesn't justify the means.....  you may feel 16hz, whether you hear it is another story.

 

But if the mfr has "engineered" the 20Hz cut-off - by using a high-enough value for the coupling cap - you won't even feel 16Hz.