Ported vs. Unported speakers

[klm]

I feel so inadequate reading this thread with all the big bass boys coming out to play. You guys obviously have all the fun.
I need to watch that movie “Ruthless People” again for the Dominator X-10 scene, 30 inches of thigh slapping, blood pumping, nuclear brain damage.

[Addicted to music]

39 minutes ago, POV said:

I’m sure Stuart did a fine job of this.  The point however is that this is invariably a compromise, where you look for best combination of all the factors influenced by positioning a loud speaker.

 

As an experiment it would be really interesting to get Stuart involved in adding some seperate subs and see how he would would change the positioning of the speakers when not needing to consider sub bass performance.  Of course I could be wrong but would be almost prepared to bet anything it would change his approach.

 

As I’ve said, I have no doubt that the system sounds amazing in its current configuration.

 

 

I want to be in the same room if this experiment takes place   And yes, i regard @joz rig as reference.   

[joz]

No doubt @POV

But in my case like many others here there was only one available position for the speakers 

So what was done was make the best out of what was available, experimenting with different placements was never an option.

so I will never know where or what other options may have worked better. At no point I would have had Stuart trying different options.

 

Edit: though I just can’t help but wonder what if any benefits extra subs  may bring in my own setup. But to actually find out requires a decent amount of coin. I for one like to be sure before parting with hard earned as I’m terrible with buyers remorse. Hence I stagnate for long periods doing nothing but wondering. I’m fully aware of what it’s like following average advice. 

Edited November 1, 2023 by joz

[cheekyboy]

21 minutes ago, POV said:

I’m sure Stuart did a fine job of this.  The point however is that this is invariably a compromise, where you look for best combination of all the factors influenced by positioning a loud speaker.

 

As an experiment it would be really interesting to get Stuart involved in adding some seperate subs and see how he would would change the positioning of the speakers when not needing to consider sub bass performance.  Of course I could be wrong but would be almost prepared to bet anything it would change his approach.

 

As I’ve said, I have no doubt that the system sounds amazing in its current configuration.

 

Hello Drew,  

 

I’m sure Joe’s Illuminator’s are set up to their optimum in that room and having heard these on several occasions, I certainly wouldn’t be adding subs to the system, but perhaps Joe would be open to doing that.

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

[POV]

4 hours ago, andyr said:

 

What do you mean by "bass linearity" Keith?  

 

I have no doubt the Illuminators deliver a prodigious, even bass line.

 

But do they enable you to feel the 16Hz organ tone in Bach's organ music (which my Paul Spencer-designed subs certainly do)?  That seems to me to be not a question of "bass linearity" - but of bass extension!

 

 

3 hours ago, cheekyboy said:

 

 

Hello Andy,

 

I don't mean anything by "bass linearity" other than what if infers and I made reference to it because it follows on from my last couple of posts and my original response to Drew @POV when he made the statement that I've quoted above in response to one of my earlier posts. He was saying that the addition of subs to any system regardless of price would be an improvement.

 

 

Yes I guess the term linearity is a bit of a bastardisation of the word, intended in this context to mean smooth, natural sounding bass at the listening position that is not adversely impacted by the inevitable peaks and troughs that exist in all essentially all rooms.  
 

With regards bass extension, @andyr absolutely some suitably powered, high quality subs will almost certainly increase SPL capacity in the lower end of sub bass range < 20hz.  However, improvements can be gained from adding subs even where additional SPL in those  very low frequencies are not sought or required.

 

My mains are only 3dB down at 18hz so certainly dig pretty deep in room and very little of my music has much energy  down that low, but yes the additional extension still adds to the overall sense of bass weight and impact in my room.

[andyr]

2 minutes ago, POV said:

Yes I guess the term linearity is a bit of a bastardisation of the word, intended in this context to mean smooth, natural sounding bass at the listening position that is not adversely impacted by the inevitable peaks and troughs that exist in all essentially all rooms.  
 

With regards bass extension, @andyr absolutely some suitably powered, high quality subs will almost certainly increase SPL capacity in the lower end of sub bass range < 20hz.  However, improvements can be gained from adding subs even where additional SPL in those  very low frequencies are not sought or required.

 

My mains are only 3dB down at 18hz so certainly dig pretty deep in room and very little of my music has much energy  down that low, but yes the additional extension still adds to the overall sense of bass weight and impact in my room.

 

I am entirely in agreement with you, Drew!  

 

[joz]

21 minutes ago, cheekyboy said:

Hello Drew,  

 

I’m sure Joe’s Illuminator’s are set up to their optimum in that room and having heard these on several occasions, I certainly wouldn’t be adding subs to the system, but perhaps Joe would be open to doing that.

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

 
One day I will, hopefully sooner rather than later. Just need some spare funds for boxes, amps and crossover eq.

[Cloth Ears]

So, 2 pages of on topic responses and then discussion of bass (and other reproduction) with nary a mentioned of ported/sealed speakers.

 

I guess with 80% of speakers being ported, they must be best. For a given meaning of 'best'...

[cheekyboy]

10 hours ago, POV said:

 

 

Hello Drew,

 

Quote

Yes I guess the term linearity is a bit of a bastardisation of the word, intended in this context to mean smooth, natural sounding bass at the listening position that is not adversely impacted by the inevitable peaks and troughs that exist in all essentially all rooms.  

 

I don't think the term linearity is corrupted in this context and your confirmation is as I would have assumed you meant it to be taken. The listening room itself probably has more adverse impact on sound quality than any other single component outside of the loudspeakers themselves of course and any steps you take to mitigate this adverse impact is indeed laudable. 

 

Quote

With regards bass extension, @andyr absolutely some suitably powered, high quality subs will almost certainly increase SPL capacity in the lower end of sub bass range < 20hz.  However, improvements can be gained from adding subs even where additional SPL in those  very low frequencies are not sought or required.

 

Yes, Andy @andyr was insistent that bass extension should be mentioned when talking about 'bass linearity' and as you say, the SPLs at those extended levels would also be a consideration. Is it true though that in optimising that 'smooth, natural sounding bass at the listening position' you would be working within the limitations of bass extension of the loudspeakers and the limitations of bass extension of any introduced subs as well? 

 

Quote

My mains are only 3dB down at 18hz so certainly dig pretty deep in room and very little of my music has much energy  down that low, but yes the additional extension still adds to the overall sense of bass weight and impact in my room.

 

3db down at 18Hz is impressive, Drew, and I assume you listen to music with that recorded content? Personally, I doubt I have any music with content that low and certainly nothing like Andy's Bach recordings with organ music hitting 16Hz. In relation to bass extension, it would be interesting to know the SPL that organ tone is playing at when hitting 16Hz @andyr From memory, there are only 2 or 3 instruments that will play at frequencies below 30Hz and also only 2 or 3 instruments that will play at frequencies below 60Hz, so I guess bass extension is important, especially from the POV of the listener's taste in music.

 

Cheers,

 

Keith 

Edited November 1, 2023 by cheekyboy

[cheekyboy]

34 minutes ago, Cloth Ears said:

So, 2 pages of on topic responses and then discussion of bass (and other reproduction) with nary a mentioned of ported/sealed speakers.

 

I guess with 80% of speakers being ported, they must be best. For a given meaning of 'best'...

 

Hello Jonty,

 

Well, I was reluctant to join in this thread, but I did find many of the replies interesting so I decided to contribute. I made my first post on page 3 and my second on page 4 and if the determining factor of being on topic is the mention of ported/sealed loudspeakers, than I was certainly on topic. My subsequent posts have also made mention of ported/sealed loudspeakers, but have largely concentrated on a particular pair of SGR Illuminator loudspeakers. So, to stay on topic, the SGR Illuminators and the SGR MT3.2 which have also got a mention in this thread, are the very best loudspeakers I've had the pleasure to listen to, bar none....... and they are both fully sealed/non ported enclosures.

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

[BioBrian]

42 minutes ago, cheekyboy said:

the SGR Illuminators and the SGR MT3.2 which have also got a mention in this thread, are the very best loudspeakers I've had the pleasure to listen to, bar none....... and they are both fully sealed/non ported enclosures.

 

Are these what are being talked about? They appear to have some large round things on the back of the bass enclosures, which tell me they are far from a fully sealed design. If they are passive radiators, no wonder the speakers have good bass extension.

 

[cheekyboy]

13 minutes ago, BioBrian said:

 

Are these what are being talked about? They appear to have some large round things on the back of the bass enclosures, which tell me they are far from a fully sealed design. If they are passive radiators, no wonder the speakers have good bass extension.

 

Hello Brian,

 

They are the loudspeakers being discussed, the SGR Illuminators and they are definitely fully sealed loudspeakers. The bass enclosures are sealed and use two drive units in each enclosure which are coupled to each other and similar to an isobaric design. The large round things are actually the rear drivers  and are not passive radiators, but the rear firing drivers, the same as the front drivers.

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

Edited November 1, 2023 by cheekyboy

[BioBrian]

Thanks for the clarification Keith - I'm pleased to hear they aren't PRs.

 

Opposing woofers sounds good to me. Guessing again - they both go out together, then in together (in phase, but opposite directions)?

 

My understanding of Isobaric is that the 2 drivers are in the same phase (so they both go in the same direction), with one on an internal baffle. I've heard one of Rod Crawford's, and was very impressed with the bass extension from such a small box.

[POV]

2 hours ago, Cloth Ears said:

So, 2 pages of on topic responses and then discussion of bass (and other reproduction) with nary a mentioned of ported/sealed speakers.

 

I guess with 80% of speakers being ported, they must be best. For a given meaning of 'best'...

It was a logical extension of the discussion I suppose given the frequency at which ports are tuned.

 

I was hoping we had got to a place where we agree that there’s no best, but that each design philosophy has its strengths and weaknesses.

 

Besides, when people come to the dark side and add dual (or more) subs with DSP high pass filter to mains above tuning frequency of the port it becomes far less relevant.

[stereo coffee]

1 hour ago, cheekyboy said:

 

Hello Jonty,

 

Well, I was reluctant to join in this thread, but I did find many of the replies interesting so I decided to contribute. I made my first post on page 3 and my second on page 4 and if the determining factor of being on topic is the mention of ported/sealed loudspeakers, than I was certainly on topic. My subsequent posts have also made mention of ported/sealed loudspeakers, but have largely concentrated on a particular pair of SGR Illuminator loudspeakers. So, to stay on topic, the SGR Illuminators and the SGR MT3.2 which have also got a mention in this thread, are the very best loudspeakers I've had the pleasure to listen to, bar none....... and they are both fully sealed/non ported enclosures.

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

Easy to appreciate Keith, as SGR has used current drive    https://www.sgraudio.com/loudspeakers

[POV]

2 minutes ago, stereo coffee said:

Easy to appreciate Keith, as SGR has used current drive    https://www.sgraudio.com/loudspeakers

Is that right?  The Powered SGRs that I have seen have class A/B FET output amps and analog crossover circuitry I’m relatively certain.

[BioBrian]

It would be the EQ that makes the difference, not so much amp topology?

[stereo coffee]

6 minutes ago, POV said:

Is that right?  The Powered SGRs that I have seen have class A/B FET output amps and analog crossover circuitry I’m relatively certain.

No doubt helped by this   https://www.current-drive.info/

[cheekyboy]

57 minutes ago, BioBrian said:

Thanks for the clarification Keith - I'm pleased to hear they aren't PRs.

 

Opposing woofers sounds good to me. Guessing again - they both go out together, then in together (in phase, but opposite directions)?

 

My understanding of Isobaric is that the 2 drivers are in the same phase (so they both go in the same direction), with one on an internal baffle. I've heard one of Rod Crawford's, and was very impressed with the bass extension from such a small box.

 

Hello Brian,

 

I didn't mean to mislead you when I said they are similar to an isobaric enclosure, but to be more accurate, they use a bass cancellation system and both drive units are mechanically coupled to each other in the same enclosure.

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

[playdough]

Been thinking about this for a few days. More questions than answers. 

It's how the game is played in integration. Well that's what I get out of the banter, with regard to the enclosures.

Tall slender speakers, short fat speakers, whatever, all do the same job. Some will measure up better than others 

You can fix nearly all speakers with "add on" gear.

Would the drivers sound better in the other enclosure, maybe, but the lounge handles less than 40 hz quite well, these pass band from 27Hz in their current config, otherwise they would be F3 at 80Hz and would need add on things, like DSP + 1000w rms  

Some speakers don't need anything other than a good Low Pass Filter and clean power. Nothing else. If they are efficient and integrate to the space well  100w rms all sweet, job done at 1mm of cone excursion. 

 

The discussion seems to be swayed with what can be added or subtracted, from the speakers natural design given Frequency response at the lowest octaves 

Edited November 2, 2023 by playdough

[playdough]

14 hours ago, klm said:

I need to watch that movie “Ruthless People” again for the Dominator X-10 scene, 30 inches of thigh slapping, blood pumping, nuclear brain damage

Sounds cool, I'll check that out. 

@85dB or less. 

[BioBrian]

36 minutes ago, playdough said:

The discussion seems to be swayed with what can be added or subtracted, from the speakers natural design given Frequency response at the lowest octaves 

 

Agreed. My ported mains and large, well-placed ported 'subs' give almost flat (Listening Position) response from 60 down to 12.5 Hz, with no DSP, or EQ, other than targeted driver/box design. A lot can be achieved just using room physics, in my case by placing subs in nulls, with both mains and subs the same distance from the LP.

 

There's a lot of old dogma and prejudice to wade through, but it's good to see some love and truth shining on the poor old battered ported speakers.

[stereo coffee]

2 hours ago, BioBrian said:

It would be the EQ that makes the difference, not so much amp topology?

Your question mark is answered by reading the book , but to assist  https://www.current-drive.info/6

[BioBrian]

7 minutes ago, stereo coffee said:

Your question mark is answered

 

Thanks, but it was a rhetorical question. It's also really off topic. The amp simply needs to be capable.

 

From my perspective, amplifiers need to supply both current and voltage, otherwise no sound will come out of either ported or sealed speakers. I'm happy to leave the pedantic arguments about amp design to others, and hopefully not here.

[davewantsmoore]

22 hours ago, cheekyboy said:

Hello

I don't completely disagree with where you're coming from.

 

I think it's fair to say that slapping a subwoofer in, can be a real step backwards in performance if the frequency response is not right .... but paradoxically it can sound very "different" (which will cause like or dislike") , due to the big changes in frequency response, even if they are "bad"..... and so "subjective impressions" (I don't explicitly mean yours.... I mean just people saying if it was good/bad experience generally) aren't a very good generalisation on the whole "will it fix my problem", topic.

 

I do think quite often people want to put in t a subwoofer to fix some perceived problem, that just better setup of the mains speakers would resolve (via. placement of speakers, placement of listener, and EQ) ...... BUT the only way to actually stop the room problem (not enough modes excited), or the SPL problem (not enough SPL vs frequency) .... is too add more bass sources.