Dirac with Auralic Altair G1 & Weston integrated valve amp?

[PeterB7858]

Hi. Interested in any thoughts about integrating Dirac Live into my existing system.

 

I've read a number of threads but they often tend to descend into house curve discussions, et. al...

 

Background - The Altair G1 (no digital output) has 8 PEQ bands built in and I use a calibrated measurement microphone (Sonarworks XRef 20) and REW (via my M1 MacBook Air and an Audient iD14 Mk1) to measure and adjust the frequency response at my listening position in the "tightly focussed" Dirac 9-point manner, keeping an eye on time based issues, as well.

 

This process is a game-changer and worth more in SQ improvement than any cable upgrade or even a component upgrade. I recently spent most of the day moving my speakers/sub round, measuring and listening and am really happy with what I achieved, SQ wise.

 

But I find the available 8 PEQ bands limiting in dealing with a small, difficult (squarish) room and feel that Dirac Live might provide a better DSP result and even better SQ.

 

I love my system, as is, Wifi Qobuz and NAS streaming to the Auralic Altair G1 which is connected by RCA to the integrated Weston Topaz KT120 (no HT or pre inputs...), which feeds a pair of Lenehan ML2+Rs supplemented by a single REL T/7i sub (high level connection), and am not really looking to change any components at this stage.

 

Can I use something like a miniDSP DDRC-24 or a miniDSP Flex between analogue out of the Altair G1 into the integrated Weston Topaz KT120? And has anyone tried something like this? And I'm aware this will introduce an extra analogue to digital conversion, and vice versa. 

 

Or alternatively, I have an M1 MacBook Air (8GB). Is it possible to install a MAC software version of Dirac Live and stream to it (via Audirvana on the M1?), Dirac it with the M1, and USB out to the Altair G1? And is this advisable?

 

I'm aware of the Dirac costs but I'm quickly coming to the conclusion that spending big bucks on cables is not really getting me the bang-for-buck that a well-implemented DIRAC Live system might.

 

All comments welcome.

 

Kind regards,

Peter.

 

 

 

[Guest]

How about replacing the Altair G1 with a NAD M66?

https://nadelectronics.com/product/m66-bluos-streaming-dac-preamplifier/

The M66 includes Dirac Live Room Correction and Dirac Live Bass Control.

 

This is a clean way to introduce Dirac into your setup.  No A2D compromise.  Potential to simplify your setup but keep the Weston Topaz KT120, Lenehan ML2+Rs and integrate the REL sub properly.  Maybe no need for MAC? 

 

However, if you want keep the MAC, Dirac Live does run on it

https://www.dirac.com/live/downloads/

[PeterB7858]

26 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

The M66 includes Dirac Live Room Correction and Dirac Live Bass Control.

 

Thanks for your suggestion, Snoop.

 

I must admit I've looked at the specs of the M66 a couple of times and it sounds like a very nice bit of kit but I'd be up for a substantial changeover cost and I'm not really in the market to go that far at the moment.

 

It also provides a number of features that I wouldn't utilise in my current 2.1 streaming system with the integrated Weston Topaz KT120  (e.g. resistor ladder preamp volume, MM/MC, multiple subs, etc.) so I'd have to change other components as well or pay for features I wouldn't use.

 

Dirac Live seems to work on the M1, so could be an option, but computer based USB into the Altair G1 is not my preferred solution either. I tried that a while ago and preferred WiFi into the G1.

 

If that is the only way forward then I might trial it in January when I have a bit of time and see if the benefits outweigh the inconvenience (I use the MacBook Air for other tasks and would have to add and remove it all the time).

 

Can a miniDSP DDRC-24 or a miniDSP Flex be set with fixed output volume to feed an integrated amp? And has anybody tried this? And found it beneficial, SQ wise?

 

Thanks, again, Snoop.

 

Kind regards,

Peter.

 

 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, PeterB7858 said:

I must admit I've looked at the specs of the M66 a couple of times and it sounds like a very nice bit of kit but I'd be up for a substantial changeover cost and I'm not really in the market to go that far at the moment.

 

It also provides a number of features that I wouldn't utilise in my current 2.1 streaming system with the integrated Weston Topaz KT120  (e.g. resistor ladder preamp volume, MM/MC, multiple subs, etc.) so I'd have to change other components as well or pay for features I wouldn't use.

Rather than looking at what you will not use, suggest looking at what you will gain by simplifying your setup?  For example, can you use BluOS to do all your streaming and access your NAS? DLBC is a superb tool to properly integrate your sub.  Sorry, but high level REL integration is marketing spiel for people who cannot or do not want to use proper tools.

 

11 minutes ago, PeterB7858 said:

Can a miniDSP DDRC-24 or a miniDSP Flex be set with fixed output volume to feed an integrated amp? And has anybody tried this? And found it beneficial, SQ wise?

Yes, it will work.  Personally, I will not compromise my music chain with an A2D done by a cheap component which has poor analogue output stages. 

[PeterB7858]

5 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

DLBC is a superb tool to properly integrate your sub.  Sorry, but high level REL integration is marketing spiel for people who cannot or do not want to use proper tools.

 

I forgot that it had DLBC, which would be welcome. No sub out on the Weston so I'd have to move that on, too, or get Earle to modify it.

 

Basically a new system...

 

My reading of NAD reliability and after sales service isn't all that flattering? Is that your experience? Though my 1984 NAD 3020B(?) was still working last time I tried it a few years ago.

 

8 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

Yes, it will work.  Personally, I will not compromise my music chain with an A2D done by a cheap component which has poor analogue output stages. 

 

That is my concern, too. 

This is where the software version via the M1 may have an edge? 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, PeterB7858 said:

I forgot that it had DLBC, which would be welcome. No sub out on the Weston so I'd have to move that on, too, or get Earle to modify it.

Maybe you can use the M66 sub output?   What I am hoping you will do is re-think your setup with the M66 and potentially simplifying things.

 

2 minutes ago, PeterB7858 said:

My reading of NAD reliability and after sales service isn't all that flattering? Is that your experience? Though my 1984 NAD 3020B(?) was still working last time I tried it a few years ago.

There is a big difference between the Masters series and standard NAD products.  Have had good, prompt response and support from NAD in the past.  And you can always find negative reports of any vendor...

 

----

As you have posted initially,  using DSP is a game changer.  Dirac will take things even further.  Hope you can find a way to introduce it into your system...

[PeterB7858]

11 hours ago, Snoopy8 said:

As you have posted initially,  using DSP is a game changer.  Dirac will take things even further.  Hope you can find a way to introduce it into your system...

 

Yes. I am a true believer re the SQ improvements properly implemented DSP can bring to a room-based system.

 

I'm thinking I might download a 14-day trial version of Dirac Live Room Correction Suite for Mac after Xmas, when I have some more time, and see if I can get it to integrate into my system via the M1 MacBook Air.

 

If I can get it to work, and I like what it brings to the system, then I will need to make some decisions about how best to integrate it in the long run.

 

Buying a licence for Dirac Live Room Correction Suite for Mac locks me into that eco-system until I am prepared to look at something like the M66, which certainly has appeal, but then I will be paying for a second licence that is included with the product. It appears licences are not transferable between platforms or devices.

 

I'll probably just look to validate that I like what Dirac does with the 14-day trial and then wait until I'm ready to make a decision re long term implementation.

 

Peter.

[Hi-Fi Whipped]

HI Peter, I have a modest set-up but for me there's music before Dirac and after Dirac. I've always integrated two Rel Subs with Dirac and the difference is night and day, I'll never go back to any system without Dirac particularly when integrating subs.

 

You'll get a taste with the M1 but it still wont integrate the subs like a proper Dirac preamp would but definitely worth a shot anyway to see if you like it with your speakers as a starting point.

 

Dirac licenses are now transferable between devices but not manufacturer platforms as you say.

[BugPowderDust]

3 hours ago, PeterB7858 said:

Buying a licence for Dirac Live Room Correction Suite for Mac locks me into that eco-system until I am prepared to look at something like the M66, which certainly has appeal, but then I will be paying for a second licence that is included with the product. It appears licences are not transferable between platforms or devices.

I've been using a M66 in my system the past 3 weeks.

 

For your use case, run, don't walk and go buy one. Buying Dirac and playing with it on a Mac will get you good results, but the simplicity of a single 2RU chassis to do all the amazing things that box does, with the insane amount of connectivity and 4 independent subwoofers out?

 

It sure sounds like it should be an early christmas present for you!

[PeterB7858]

3 hours ago, BugPowderDust said:

For your use case, run, don't walk and go buy one. Buying Dirac and playing with it on a Mac will get you good results, but the simplicity of a single 2RU chassis to do all the amazing things that box does, with the insane amount of connectivity and 4 independent subwoofers out?

 

It sure sounds like it should be an early christmas present for you!

 

Glad you are liking the M66. It does sound like an elegant way to move forward.

 

I also have a Kinki Studio EX-M1 that I am no longer using...

 

I will have to give serious consideration to selling the Altair G1 and the EX-M1 and moving to the M66.

 

Not before Xmas, though .

Enjoy!

 

[BugPowderDust]

@PeterB7858 https://www.stereonet.com/au/reviews/nad-m66-bluos-streaming-dac-preamplifier-review

[PeterB7858]

19 minutes ago, BugPowderDust said:

@PeterB7858 https://www.stereonet.com/au/reviews/nad-m66-bluos-streaming-dac-preamplifier-review

 

Thanks @BugPowderDust.

 

Compelling review for sure. It does sound like the best hardware option moving forward. 

 

I'm very tempted but I will wait until the new year to make a decision on it.

 

In the meantime, I have reactivated Audirvana on my M1 MacBook Air and will download the 14 day trial version of Dirac, which can run as a plugin in Audirvana, and take the Dirac software for a test drive.

 

Audirvana connects wirelessly from the M1 to the Altair G1 via UPnP (and sounds pretty good) but I think the M1 has to be connected to the Altair G1 via USB for me to do the measuring and generate some filters. I'm still chasing this down.

 

I will keep this thread updated.

[Guest]

And according to the SNA reviewer,  will include ART !

https://www.dirac.com/live/dirac-live-active-room-treatment/

 

For me, it is the game changer, based on @BugPowderDust   feedback on his Storm Audio processor.

[Guest]

19 hours ago, BugPowderDust said:

@PeterB7858 https://www.stereonet.com/au/reviews/nad-m66-bluos-streaming-dac-preamplifier-review

It is refreshing that the reviewer took the trouble to run DIrac Live and Bass Control for the review.  All too often, reviewers do not use Dirac Live (or other room correction software), arguing that the review should be evaluating the "native product", whatever that means!  As such, those reviewers  do not do justice to the product being reviewed. 

 

Also, there is now a good upgrade path from the Bluesound Node to the NAD C658 and ultimately the M66. 

 

 

Edited December 18, 2023 by Snoopy8
Typo

[PeterB7858]

I've been a bit obsessed with DSP over the last week and in my browsing and reading about DSP I came across this Youtube video.

 

It is VERY good (for those prepared to stay the distance and persevere).

 

Summary: A new "digital room correction" / "speaker correction" method producing great results by creating minimum phase FIR "finite impulse response" filters with inversion.

 

It comes with a detailed PDF guide and a link to the Harmon House Curve (which he likes).

 

Suffice to say, I learnt many things about REW that I didn't know it could do, and, although it took a number of hours, several mis-steps and switching between the video and the PDF, I was able to successfully create a stereo wav file containing finite impulse response filters for the listening position in my room.

 

I then dug round and found some free convolver software for Mac, called ConvologyXT that will work as a plugin in Audirvana and run the filters.

https://www.avid.com/plugins/convology-xt-free-plugin

 

End result is pretty spectacular, IMHO. 

 

Images are absolutely pin-pointed in space with better timbre than I've ever heard from my system. Bass is far more "tuneful" and there is a major increase in the sense of space around elements in a mix.

 

For mine, no new individual component or cable could ever produce the improvement that I've experienced in SQ by working my way through the above.

 

I'm assuming what I'm experiencing is well on the way towards what Dirac might bring.

 

And a great learning experience, to boot.

 

Peter.

[PeterB7858]

On 20/12/2023 at 2:41 PM, PeterB7858 said:

End result is pretty spectacular, IMHO. 

 

Images are absolutely pin-pointed in space with better timbre than I've ever heard from my system. Bass is far more "tuneful" and there is a major increase in the sense of space around elements in a mix.

 

Been listening to the minimum phase FIR "finite impulse response" filters I created, using the techniques outlined in the video above for a while now, via M1 MacBook Air > Audirvana Studio > ConvologyXT > wireless via UPnP to the Altair G1.

PS The M1 is running on battery only when I use this setup, it is connected directly to the wireless router via Ethernet, and is running in Audirvana's “exclusive audio access mode“.

 

Everything that I described in the quote above still holds but transients seem to be a bit muted, especially drums? I'm missing the visceral slam of a hard hit on a snare drum, etc.

 

Does Dirac exhibit this trait, as well?

 

Dirac says it uses multi-phase filters AND addresses impulse response time issues. Does this help in regard to the above?

 

I'm waiting until I can buy a USB C to A cable (after Xmas) to directly connect the M1 MacBook Air to the Altair G1 before I start a trial of Dirac for Mac, so I suppose I will find out soon enough, but does anyone have any thoughts on the above.

 

Thanks.

 

And have a great holiday break .

 

Regards, Peter.

Edited December 23, 2023 by PeterB7858
Clarification

[Guest]

2 hours ago, PeterB7858 said:

Been listening to the minimum phase FIR "finite impulse response" filters I created, using the techniques outlined in the video above for a while now, via M1 MacBook Air > Audirvana Studio > ConvologyXT > wireless via UPnP to the Altair G1.

PS The M1 is running on battery only when I use this setup, it is connected directly to the wireless router via Ethernet, and is running in Audirvana's “exclusive audio access mode“.

 

Everything that I described in the quote above still holds but transients seem to be a bit muted, especially drums? I'm missing the visceral slam of a hard hit on a snare drum, etc.

You can only do so much in REW and need to combine it with rePhase to generate the impulse response.  However, it opens up another rabbit hole and I ended up abandoning that in favour of Audiolense, an expensive, but worthwhile software.

 

When you trial Dirac Live, you will find that it is much simpler to do things, and likely produce better results.  A number of users found that for stereo,  Dirac Live is better when it is restricted to correcting below a frequency using a curtain.  The curtain limit does depend on your room and setup, and you will have experiment.

 

**

Am only using Dirac Live on my home theatre.  Unfortunately, Dirac Live does not run on Linux.

Edited December 24, 2023 by Snoopy8
Added **

[PeterB7858]

16 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

When you trial Dirac Live, you will find that it is much simpler to do things, and likely produce better results.  A number of users found that for stereo,  Dirac Live is better when it is restricted to correcting below a frequency using a curtain.  The curtain limit does depend on your room and setup, and you will have experiment.

 

I did have a look at a few rePhase examples, but it is only available for Windows and seemed like there was a steep learning curve, so I abandoned that idea.

 

Dirac does seem much easier to use, so I will trial it and see.

 

If I get hooked by Dirac the dilemma will then be whether I just keep using the M1 MacBook as an Audirvana/Dirac source or look to something like the M66 (later in the year...).

 

And, thanks for the tip re using a frequency curtain. I was actually thinking that I might redo my (above) filters but only up to a certain frequency, say 1000Hz to start off with, and then work backwards.

 

If I decide Dirac is the solution, and the M66 is the best forward path, then I will need to make do with the REW filters, so I will keep experimenting with them and possibly even go down the rePhase rabbit-hole...

 

I appreciate your help, Snoop. Thanks.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, PeterB7858 said:

If I decide Dirac is the solution, and the M66 is the best forward path, then I will need to make do with the REW filters, so I will keep experimenting with them and possibly even go down the rePhase rabbit-hole...

If you decide on Dirac on the M66, why do you need to use REW filters ?  There are other adjustments like target curves within Dirac that you can use.

 

Also, should you get the M66, you should take the opportunity to simplify your setup...

 

Have fun...

[PeterB7858]

3 hours ago, Snoopy8 said:

If you decide on Dirac on the M66, why do you need to use REW filters ? 

 

If I decide on the M66 it will probably be a few months before I buy one.

 

And I won't want to buy a Dirac for Mac licence, after the 14 day trial runs out, that I can't transfer over to the M66, so I will continue using, and refining, the REW filters until an M66 comes along.

 

I agree that an M66 simplifies the setup significantly and is an elegant, preferred solution but the $9k entry requirement will require some initial, and ongoing, discussion with my wife to preserve domestic harmony... 

 

 

[Hi-Fi Whipped]

Would the M33 be an option? From a cost point of view it’s an integrated amp so you could sell your current amp to assist funding. If you only plan on having one sub you may be able to forgo DLBC in the M66?

[PeterB7858]

1 minute ago, Hi-Fi Whipped said:

Would the M33 be an option? From a cost point of view it’s an integrated amp so you could sell your current amp to assist funding. If you only plan on having one sub you may be able to forgo DLBC in the M66?

 

Interesting suggestion, thanks.

 

But I don't want to part with my Weston valve amp. I have a well-respected Kinki Studio EX-M1 integrated solid state amp sitting idle next to the Weston...

 

I can afford the M66, it's more a matter of getting my partner used to the idea . 

 

And I can sell the Kinki Studio and the Altair G1 to fund the M66 anyway, so turnaround price will be a fair bit lower than $9k.

[PeterB7858]

An update...

 

The Obsessive Compulsive Audiophile (OCA) has a Youtube channel that is worth following if you are into DSP, making convolution filters, etc. and I found out he updated his REW techniques in a further video.  

 

And it produces VERY good results

.

 

Part I is definitely worth watching first, especially the first 14 minutes, as OCA offers hints re speaker placement and microphone measurement techniques, but it then goes into using rePhase to correct speaker box and crossover phase correction and creating a Virtual Bass Array filter, which I didn't want to attempt at this stage. 

 

Part II includes a revised way to produce convolution filters, adding the creation of a Phase inversion filter using REW (not rePhase) and I used this revised technique to achieve my best sounding convolution filter yet.

 

NB. There is a transcript of the videos if you are having trouble following the speed of the dialogue.

 

Applying the new filter as outlined above using M1 MacBook Air (running on battery) > Audirvana Studio > ConvologyXT > wireless via UPnP to the Altair G1 sounded VERY good, better than I had achieved using the first technique.

 

But unfortunately Audirvana Studio doesn't play nice with the Altair G1 (apparently due to them using different flavours of UPnP) and only plays a couple of songs with no track progression showing , which is a pity.

 

They might play a bit better together via USB but I don't want to be hooking up my MacBook Air to the G1 every time I want to listen to music...

 

Sooooo, I decided I would resurrect my late 2012 Mac Mini (quad-core i7, 16Gb RAM) and trial Roon for 14 days using the Mini as a dedicated Roon Core attached by ethernet to the ASUS RT-AX86U, because Roon Core includes an inbuilt ability to utilise convolution filters (and PEQ and volume levelling, etc.).

 

I'm using the Mini "headless" and screen share into it using the MacBook Air.

 

I optimised High Sierra OSX on the Mac Mini for better sound using tips included here (https://www.mojo-audio.com/blog/optimizing-os-x-for-audio-video/), installed Roon Core  and am using my M1 iPad for Roon Remote functions.

 

Roon found the Altair G1 as a Roon endpoint via wireless and things are actually working very well.

 

I trialled Roon a number of years ago but never felt compelled to follow through on it, but I've got to say, I'm really enjoying how it seamlessly integrates the music on my NAS with my Qobuz streaming favourites, etc. And I also enjoy reading the info it provides re artists/contributors, lyrics, etc.

 

Coupled with it ability to run convolution filters it is presenting a compelling case to continue using this arrangement.

 

SQ is possibly marginally behind what I achieved with Audirvana on the M1 MacBook (on battery) but I haven't really started to try and tweak the Mac Mini side of things much yet...

 

On the Dirac front things are not promising at the moment...

 

I installed Dirac Live Room Correction Suite for Mac on my MacBook Air and, on my first run at it, couldn't conjure up a way to get it to "see" the Altair G1 as a device via wireless.

 

I'm planning to try again via USB in the next day or so but the whole arrangement is complicated due to M1 MacBook Air only having Thunderbolt/USB C input/outputs, and having to use an adapter hub, and my use of an audio interface to connect my existing condenser measurement microphone, etc.. We'll see.

 

I know getting an M66 simplifies the setup considerably, and all things being equal would be an obvious path to DSP/Dirac, but the SQ I'm achieving at present is VERY good for almost $9K less outlay... and I kind of like the challenge .

 

To be continued.

 

Regards, Peter.

 

 

[PeterB7858]

Addendum…

 

I went to Jaycar and bought two USB C to B cables to take the MacBook Air hub out of the equation. 
 

Tried one first from the MacBook to the Altair G1 to see if Audirvāna Studio behaved better via USB, and bingo, all is working fine, even the remote IOS app . 

Sounds very good. Not quite as good as the misfunctioning wifi UPnP configuration but considering the cheap Jaycar cable, quite impressive. 

AudioQuest sell a USB C to B cable in their Carbon range so it might be an option . 
 

I also then tried a USB B to C cable from my Audient iD14 audio interface to the MacBook to simplify the microphone setup, but the Mac Virtual Dirac device takes control of the MacBook, implants the Audient as output and the Altair G1 via USB disappears off the radar. 
 

I tried changing inputs and outputs in System Preferences > Sound and MIDI Audio settings to no avail. I can’t get Dirac to output to the G1…

 

Tried using Dirac as an Audio Unit in Audirvāna to no avail, either. It grabs its output and won’t find the USB connected G1  anymore, either.

 

I believe I have come to a Dirac dead end with my setup…

 

Two good things have come out of it, though. 
 

Audirvāna on MacBook via USB and Roon on Mac Mini via wireless both work well and let me utilise convolution filters.

 

SQ is currently leaning towards the Audirvāna combo as its much faster processor handles my best sounding convolution filters easily whereas the old Mac Mini struggles with them, taking a while to load. I run the Mac Mini on battery whilst listening, too, and I’m sure this helps a bit, as well. 

M66 later in the year? Possibly. But it does have a number of features I don’t need… 

 

I'll probably subscribe to Roon on a month by month basis and keep tweaking and comparing it to the Audirvāna Studio USB setup, which I will keep tweaking, as well . 
 

Thanks for everyone's input. 
 

Kind regards, Peter. 

 

[PeterB7858]

I need to add to this thread as I have changed what I am doing to good effect.

 

I wiped my 2012 Mac Mini and re-installed a clean version of Mac OS Catalina 10.15.7 (the latest OS the 2012 mini will accept). That is now running as a dedicated Roon Server connected by AQ Carbon USB to the Altair G1. So the G1 is now just being used as a DAC.

 

And I'm now using Focus Fidelity (FF) room correction software (on my M1 Mac - it won't work on the 2012 mini), which I can strongly recommend.   https://www.focusfidelity.com

 

The beauty of FF, to me, is that as well as correcting frequency response anomalies, it also produces improvements in the time domain (impulse, step response and phase).

 

Focus Fidelity (FF) has a free measurement software called Impala (Mac and PC) that makes the collection of measurement data easy, as long as you already have a calibrated measurement microphone. If not, they recommend the USB UMIK-1, which is actually available in Australia if you look around. I use a calibrated XLR measurement mic and an Audient ID14 audio interface but USB would involve less mucking around...

 

You take eight or ten measurements around the main listening position (MLP) and then feed the wave files into FF (which you have to pay for - perpetual licence).

 

FF walks you through a step by step process and, even if you accept the defaults, you are more than likely to get better SQ. That said, it is also highly configurable if you want to tinker, which I do  .

 

The resultant filters can be imported into Roon, Audirvana, JRiver, etc..

 

So Focus Fidelity produces the first convolution filter I use in Roon Muse.

 

Here are some examples of FF filters before/after that I have verified by re-measuring with the filter engaged.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Because I have a highly localised, single seat MLP, I then refine the FF filter further using REW and methods devised by the Obsessive Compulsive Audiophile (@OCA) as outlined on his YouTube channel.

 

I apply that in tandem with the FF filter by adding a second Convolution Filter to Room Muse.

 

Happy to report that the end result is definitely worth the effort .

 

Kind regards,

Peter.

 

TBA. Of course...

 

Edited February 21, 2024 by PeterB7858
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