Why is CD still better than HiRes streaming?

[bob_m_54]

17 minutes ago, Irek said:

You wanted to say if the data is transferred in exactly the same way there won't be a difference. 

In other words, every audiolab 6000CDT should sound exactly the same. 

If it's only a transport, then yes. The digital data only specifies what the music contains in the way or frequencies and volume. So if it is operating correctly, it will only pass on the digital information to the DAC, which then may have differences in how the audio output sounds.

As they say on their website:

Quote

CD transports differ as they don’t have any analogue or digital to analogue components in them or any filters to improve the analogue sound. Instead they pass on the digital audio signal straight on to a DAC or an amplifier with a DAC via digital outputs like coaxial or optical outputs.

 

[aussievintage]

2 hours ago, audiofeline said:

I would think that modern computers and devices would be able to deliver the data at a speed required for music playback, and some more.

 

You are absolutely correct.  I was answering the generic question, and speed is about the only parameter that changes.  It matters when you have larger volumes of data - but NOT for music.

[Irek]

10 minutes ago, bob_m_54 said:

If it's only a transport, then yes. The digital data only specifies what the music contains in the way or frequencies and volume. So if it is operating correctly, it will only pass on the digital information to the DAC, which then may have differences in how the audio output sounds.

As they say on their website:

 

 

"So if it is operating correctly, it will only pass on the digital information to the DAC,"

What does it mean"correctly"? Do you mean reading the data in a perfect way? 

[Stereophilus]

2 hours ago, aussievintage said:

Same data, same sound.

 

58 minutes ago, Satanica said:

 

That's the thing isn't it, all changes must be audible or the audiophile is not so much an audiophile.
But it doesn't need to be this all or nothing way.

It's OK to embrace the thought that there are changes that are simply not audible, by everybody.
As soon as one embraces this, I think it will be a relieving experience.

It's the "bits is bits" argument over again, surely? 

 

Data integrity is not in question.  The debate can stop on that point.

 

Any mechanism delivering data in real time, whether buffered or not, is delivering jitter to a connected DAC.  Whether that DAC is susceptible to the jitter and produces an audible difference as a result IS debatable.

[aussievintage]

1 hour ago, Irek said:

Same data but the mechanism that is reading the data before sending it to DAC is not the same. 

 

Not when comparing thumbdrives.  The computer and all else is the same, and the same data is being read from the drive by the computer 100% accurately

[aussievintage]

2 minutes ago, Irek said:

Do you mean reading the data in a perfect way? 

 

Yes, hence it's the same data, same sound.

[Satanica]

3 hours ago, Stereophilus said:

Any mechanism delivering data in real time, whether buffered or not, is delivering jitter to a connected DAC.  Whether that DAC is susceptible to the jitter and produces an audible difference as a result IS debatable.

It's also a question of how much and what of what type of jitter is audible?
And also, in the example of being discussed right now, is how does one USB thumb-drive brand X model Y induce more jitter than brand Y model X?

A debatable topic becomes non-debatable pretty quick without at least some semi solid evidence.

Edited June 11, 2024 by Satanica

[Assisi]

41 minutes ago, Satanica said:

A debatable topic becomes non-debatable pretty quick without at least some semi solid evidence.

I would not be surprised to find that various USBs, SSDs, HDDs and or CD transports for example can and will provide a difference with the playback via the DAC.  It is not about the integrity of the data which will be correct or any possible jitter.  The SQ playback can be impacted by the other aspects such as unwanted resonance that end up in the signal along with the 1s and 0s.  Many do not realise what else is in the Music that they hear coming out of their speakers.  It is only noticeable when you hear the playback when something is done to mitigate unwanted impacts. The differences can be very subtle.  Mitigate the impacts and there can be a listening benefit albeit small. 

 

 

The impacts can come from the construction materials of the device, the electronics etc.  For example, there are differences between RJ45 connectors on Ethernet cables whether they are plastic Vs metal.   Everything matters.  The semi solid evidence that you and others may require is for individuals trying and forming their own position on their own observations.  It is about trying and experiencing

 

John

[bob_m_54]

4 hours ago, Irek said:

 

"So if it is operating correctly, it will only pass on the digital information to the DAC,"

What does it mean"correctly"? Do you mean reading the data in a perfect way? 

It means if it can read the data without so many misreads that the receive buffer is emptied. And this is a either poor hardware functionality, or unreliable storage media. But you are straying away from my point, that there will be no audible difference between thumb drive brands. They will either supply data, or not.

[Irek]

5 hours ago, aussievintage said:

 

Yes, hence it's the same data, same sound.

But the mechanism inside CD transports, streamers, laptops that is reading the date and transferring to DAC is not the same. It is not a perfect reading method for audio purposes. The signal from different transport sometimes is very similar and sometimes is very different. It has been proven hundred times by measurements and blind auditions. 

But...

some people on youtube are using Kef Ls 50 with some average class AB amplifier for testing. No offense to anybody, but that is kind of a joke. If they use something like Focal sopra, high quality headphones/studio headphones/studio monitors  than it would be a different story. 

[aussievintage]

13 minutes ago, Irek said:

But the mechanism inside CD transports,

 

I understood we were talking about USB thumbdrives

 

Edit:   just traced it back.  We were talking about thumbdrives at that point.

Edited June 11, 2024 by aussievintage

[Stereophilus]

4 hours ago, Satanica said:

It's also a question of how much and what of what type of jitter is audible?
And also, in the example of being discussed right now, is how does one USB thumb-drive brand X model Y induce more jitter than brand Y model X?

A debatable topic becomes non-debatable pretty quick without at least some semi solid evidence.

Debate, or at least discussion is the first step in any process leading to the generation of evidence.

 

There is no solid or even semi-solid evidence for either side of the argument.  The existing studies for audibility of jitter are frankly laughable in their methodology.

 

Lack of good quality quantifiable evidence of itself does nothing to disprove anecdotal reports.

[POV]

This thread is getting weirder.  
 

Jitter is never and can never be audible.  Jitter is a timing error in digital signals and there is no way that you can hear this, it can only be measured.

[POV]

3 hours ago, Assisi said:

The SQ playback can be impacted by the other aspects such as unwanted resonance that end up in the signal along with the 1s and 0s

Sorry John.  This makes no sense, there is no resonance in a digital signal.

[Stereophilus]

10 minutes ago, POV said:

This thread is getting weirder.  
 

Jitter is never and can never be audible.  Jitter is a timing error in digital signals and there is no way that you can hear this, it can only be measured.

Cmon... we've done this before... audibility of jitter refers to the audible effects of jitter at a digital to analog interface.  It's just too laborious to spell that out every time for you.

[POV]

Just now, Stereophilus said:

Cmon... we've done this before... audibility of jitter refers to the audible effects of jitter at a digital to analog interface.  It's just too laborious to spell that out every time for you.

There’s no need to be rude.  Why not just be accurate and precise.  If you want to discuss jitter discuss jitter, if you want to discuss distortion discuss distortion.  There is more than enough confusion about in these threads without us utilising terms interchangeably.

[Assisi]

5 minutes ago, POV said:

This thread is getting weirder.  
 

Jitter is never and can never be audible.  Jitter is a timing error in digital signals and there is no way that you can hear this, it can only be measured.

There are people who say they can.  For example Ted Smith from PS audio.  I don't know whether he can or cannot.  To me it is possible.

Look at this

 

8 minutes ago, POV said:

Sorry John.  This makes no sense, there is no resonance in a digital signal.

Maybe I could have said interference.  For me there can be something in the signal that spoils or interferes with just the music signal.  Why is it that there are countless people who comment that a quality power supply connected to a Streaming NAS for example improves the the listening outcome?

 

 

[Stereophilus]

21 minutes ago, POV said:

There’s no need to be rude.  Why not just be accurate and precise.  If you want to discuss jitter discuss jitter, if you want to discuss distortion discuss distortion.  There is more than enough confusion about in these threads without us utilising terms interchangeably.

Rude? No. If I came across as curt it is because you were using a point of semantics to deride a valid argument.  You used the term "weirder" when you knew perfectly well what the discussion point related to. The two of us discussed this point in another thread not that long ago, so I know you understood the shorthand terminology.

[andyr]

3 minutes ago, Stereophilus said:

Rude? No. If I came across as curt it is because you were using a point of semantics to deride a valid argument.  You used the term "weirder" when you knew perfectly well what the discussion point related to. The two of us discussed this point in another thread not that long ago, so I know you understood the shorthand terminology.

 

He's an argumentative fella, S!!  

 

[POV]

Ok great, we’re immediately back to judging my intent.

I don’t consider it semantics, rather a very important distinction.  I think jitter is a term that is very confused in many discussions here and Im simply saying in my view we should use the correct terms to discuss things.  If that irritates you then I’m sorry.  I’ll leave it there.

[POV]

4 minutes ago, andyr said:

 

He's an argumentative fella, S!!  

 

Actually I’m a neurodivergent engineer and I struggle with nuance sometimes.  But thanks for adding to the judgement here Andy.

 

Hows that spirit of Stereonet working out?

Edited June 11, 2024 by POV

[andyr]

1 minute ago, POV said:

Actually, I’m a neurodivergent engineer and I struggle with nuance sometimes.  But thanks for adding to the judgement here Andy.

 

NP, Drew - we're all "on the ND scale".    Yes, even me!  

 

1 minute ago, POV said:

How's that spirit of Stereonet working out?

 

It's at the top of my mind actually ... so I have avoided responding to a post which slammed into one of our ND brethren (good ol' Felix), for fear of getting a pile-on from the mods.  

 

[Assisi]

3 minutes ago, andyr said:

NP, Drew - we're all "on the ND scale"

Very true. Some more so than others.

John

[Satanica]

1 hour ago, Stereophilus said:

Debate, or at least discussion is the first step in any process leading to the generation of evidence.

 

There is no solid or even semi-solid evidence for either side of the argument.  The existing studies for audibility of jitter are frankly laughable in their methodology.

 

Lack of good quality quantifiable evidence of itself does nothing to disprove anecdotal reports.

Perhaps take a look at this thread, you might have missed it. Lack of good quality quantifiable evidence of itself does nothing to prove anecdotal reports.

 

Edited June 11, 2024 by Satanica

[NonPlayableCharacter]

Let's stay on-track with the thread intent and be mindful that the Spirit of Stereonet is alive, well and watching.

 

Be excellent to each other, please.