Challenging home theatre setup, options?

[Outaluck]

I have a very challenging space to work with and with my total lack of knowledge on anything audio, I'm looking for any suggestions on best options and also specific speakers with a limited budget.

 

My thoughts were a 2.1.2 or 2.1.4 setup?

 

1) Budget: $1500
2) Interests: Movies, Gaming & Music with music and movies primary concern.
3) Existing audio equipment: Denon AVR-X1800H, 2 x Q Acoustics Qi 65C ceiling speakers. 
4) Room size is 6m x 6m combined kitchen/living. Front wall with TV, RH side wall plaster & glass, rear wall all glass, LH side open to kitchen. Living room area is 3.4m wide by 6m deep. Seating position is 3m from TV screen. Ceilings 2.7m high. 75" TV.
5) Any placement restrictions. No side or rear speaker positions on floor or wall. (I could fit rear speakers just below ceiling height)
6) Any equipment you are already considering? I like the JENSEN ELITE-303 In-Wall Speakers with the EHT-707 Sub but unsure of the quality.

I have room for floor standing or bookcase fronts.
Floor standing speakers I have seen in the $1k price range.
Wharfedale DIAMOND 12.3
Yamaha NS-F51 
Polk Monitor XT60 
Polk Signature S55
Focal Chora 816  

 

What's my best option for speaker type and layout?

 

Any specific purchase recommendations?

[Guest]

There is no such setup as 2.1.2  or 2.1.4.   It would be 5.1 with 3 fronts and 2 rear ceiling speakers or 4.1 with 2 fronts and 2 rear ceiling speakers. 

 

Given that all this is new to you,  suggest you have a listen of the Jensen in-wall speakers with a matching centre. Please do not buy based on reading things online or based on posts here.  It is important that you educate yourself by auditioning some speakers.  As long as they sound good to you, that is all that matters...

[Outaluck]

Yeah thanks Snoopy, unfortunately I live in a small country town so not much option to audition speakers. 

 

The Jensen's claim to have the centre speaker incorporated into the wall speakers and look like a really nice install. A set of floor standing + center would work fine too but I haven't found any packages like that, just 5.1 packages but I can't use the rears so a bit of a waste. As you see I'm at the lower end of budget.

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, Outaluck said:

Yeah thanks Snoopy, unfortunately I live in a small country town so not much option to audition speakers. 

You need to find a way to visit a HT retailer, perhaps a day trip?   Without educating your ears and your knowledge of audio, it will be a difficult exercise.

 

Perhaps another way is to buy Q Acoustics speakers?  Having tonally matching speakers will help in the setup.  

[Outaluck]

34 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

You need to find a way to visit a HT retailer

Understood, certainly do my best to get into a store. Just trying to work out my best options are with a difficult room.  

But like you say "3 fronts and 2 rear ceiling" is probably the best I can do.

[Hi-Fi Whipped]

2 hours ago, Outaluck said:

Understood, certainly do my best to get into a store. Just trying to work out my best options are with a difficult room.  

But like you say "3 fronts and 2 rear ceiling" is probably the best I can do.

Not ideal but I’ve been running front LCR and ceiling rears for years and you will have enough enjoyment this way. 80% of the action happens up front and if you get this right you’ll be able to accept the compromise with the rears.

 

snoopy is right you can’t beat auditioning speakers to get a feel for what you like but given you are just staring out it’s possibly less of an issue, but that said you will quickly know what you don’t like when you hear it!

 

Avoid in wall speakers, cutting holes in walls when you aren’t 100% sure on whether you’ll like them is fraught with danger. I’d aim for tower fronts and buy second hand to maximise the bang for buck, fwiw all the speakers I’ve owned I’ve never auditioned but if you buy second hand and buy well, you can switch them out without too much financial pain.

 

There’s a lot more to speakers than this but given the low power of the Denon aim for speakers that are efficient and don’t need a lot of power I.e 88db +

 

Given music is up there in your priorities, start with the L&R and when you are happy with those just add the matching centre.
 

re subwoofers, everyone is different but I’d recommend a sealed sub from a sub manufacturer, as apposed to a speaker manufacturer that makes subs. You have a big room, so two subs long term will help even out the bass response in the room.

[Outaluck]

9 minutes ago, Hi-Fi Whipped said:

Avoid in wall speakers

Wow Wipped, lots of gold nuggets in your post. Thank you. I agree with you on the in wall speakers, it was just the aesthetics were attractive. 

 

I'll keep a eye out for some secondhand speakers, that's a good option to start with and build from there. I already have a couple of in ceiling ones.

 

What do you think of a pair of Focal Chora 816 Floorstanding speakers for under $1k? 

 

Any sub manufacturers you could recommend in the value for $ range?

[Hi-Fi Whipped]

1 hour ago, Outaluck said:

Wow Wipped, lots of gold nuggets in your post. Thank you. I agree with you on the in wall speakers, it was just the aesthetics were attractive. 

 

I'll keep a eye out for some secondhand speakers, that's a good option to start with and build from there. I already have a couple of in ceiling ones.

 

What do you think of a pair of Focal Chora 816 Floorstanding speakers for under $1k? 

 

Any sub manufacturers you could recommend in the value for $ range?

Without auditioning yourself it does mean you are reliant on feedback from others and it is the harder road but means you need to some reading and questioning.

 

you also need to try and understand the sound you like, some like detailed, some like warmth, some like a higher revealing treble, no two pair of ears are the same so it’s a mine field.

you also need to have an idea of the type of speaker that will work for the room. Rear ported, front ported, sealed. Rear ported speakers need room behind them to let the port breath, sealed and front ported speakers can be close to the wall.
 

Re the focal, I know they can be had cheap recently but I have not heard them, I’ve heard people that love them and others that say they can be bright.

 

your room also plays the biggest role in how things sound, ideally as long as you have carpet, curtains, soft plush couches, cushions etc it will go a long way to softening the sound of any speakers you put in the room.

 

re subs, I know a lot of people are happy with SVS and they have some great cost effective options too, I use Rel subs but they didn’t cost a lot either, sub $1k ex demo when I purchased them.

[Outaluck]

8 hours ago, Hi-Fi Whipped said:

Rear ported, front ported, sealed. Rear ported speakers need room behind them to let the port breath, sealed and front ported speakers can be close to the wall

Lots of research still to do then, never heard any of these terms before. I guess that's the other challenge of the room is it's bare hardwood floors. 

On the positive side we currently stream music through the tv speakers so anything is going to be a major upgrade over that. Thanks for the info on the subs, I've now heard of two brands so moving forward and building the knowledge base.

[RCADees]

I Completely agree with other member's comments above. Knowledge is the key.

 

Knowledge can be built by trial and error (buying and selling cheap and trying) but also auditioning and establishing a relationship with a good specialised Hi-Fi shop will serve you well for years to come and they'll do the home work for you.

 

I think your situation reminds me a bit of when I started in this hobby and bought my "Home Theatre in a Box" in the early 2000s. It was just what I needed at the time and it allowed me to learn while trying different things. Considering what I spent back then, it was a cheap exercise.

 

As Hi-Fi Whipped said, most of the action happens at the front and those 3 speakers (Left front, Centre and Right Front) are key. I suggest you spend time understanding the positioning of those 3 first. Add a good subwoofer and then expand from that. I use a REL HT 1205 and I think it is very impressive for the price.

 

There is some info here from Dolby about the "horizon" level speakers:

"As in the past, the placement of all listener-level speakers should follow these recommendations, which are based on ITU-R BS.775-3: • The speakers located in the front of the room shall be used as a reference point. All speakers in the listener plane should ideally be equidistant from the listener position. If this is not possible, compensating for distance may be used to time align the arrival of audio from each speaker to the listener. • All listener speakers should be at the same height, typically 3.9 feet (1.2 meters), which is ear level for the average seated listener (as defined in ITU-R BS.1116-1)"

 

I would recommend to read this guide as a good start:
https://www.dolby.com/siteassets/technologies/dolby-atmos/atmos-installation-guidelines-121318_r3.1.pdf

 

Or alternatively speak to your specialised Hi-Fi/Home Cinema shop for options, budget etc. If the shop is good, they will be able to find your needs Vs wants and make suggestions.

 

I have found this hobby is not a set, done and forget thing at all, so there is no reason to rush it.

And if you get into it you will only come back for more. Enjoy the ride.

[Outaluck]

12 minutes ago, RCADees said:

As Hi-Fi Whipped said, most of the action happens at the front and those 3 speakers (Left front, Centre and Right Front) are key.

Thanks RCADees, yes I will focus on a set of 3 front speakers first as they are the most important. My Denon X1800H is only 80w per channel, does that mean I should limit my L/R fronts to a max 80w or go even lower wattage for the front speakers? 

 

I have heard some advice that the 80w per channel is for 2 channels max, so 160w for all speakers. From what I'm reading the X1800H has an amp for each speaker so I'm a bit confused what my limits are here. 

 

Thanks for the Dolby link, with my arrangement I can't fit any surrounds at floor level so my rears will have to be ceiling mounted. What would you recommend as the ideal position in relation to the rear wall which is about 3m behind the sitting position?

[Outaluck]

38 minutes ago, RCADees said:

Enjoy the ride.

Once I get over the hump I think I'll enjoy it more.

[RCADees]

7 minutes ago, Outaluck said:

Thanks RCADees, yes I will focus on a set of 3 front speakers first as they are the most important. My Denon X1800H is only 80w per channel, does that mean I should limit my L/R fronts to a max 80w or go even lower wattage for the front speakers? 

 

I have heard some advice that the 80w per channel is for 2 channels max, so 160w for all speakers. From what I'm reading the X1800H has an amp for each speaker so I'm a bit confused what my limits are here. 

 

Thanks for the Dolby link, with my arrangement I can't fit any surrounds at floor level so my rears will have to be ceiling mounted. What would you recommend as the ideal position in relation to the rear wall which is about 3m behind the sitting position?

 

To your first question about wattage, this would depend on what sort of experience you are trying to achieve. 

A 6x6 room is big and it needs power to be filled. But this also depends on how efficient (power hungry) are your speakers.

Your Denon AVR-X1800H seems to be rated at 80W for 2 channels into 8ohms but AVR manufacturers are well known for not advertising these numbers accurately and in my opinion this would be a low powered amp specially for such a big room. BUT once again, it may give you an ok result for now before you expand later on as long as you don't have high expectations.

 

It may be just enough so that you run the 3 front speakers for now, but again it depends on what type of speakers they would be and how good you want the set up to sound.

If you get to visit a Hi-Fi shop, ask them to make the comparison between a low powered amp and high current one with X speakers.

Just remember that low powered amps while they can run speakers, as you start increasing volume and demand more from the amplifier, you run into the danger zone as the amplifier is not able to amplify the incoming signal completely and you'll get distortion and worse "clipping" which can damage your speakers. This is the risk.

Once again, this is why recommendations from a good Hi-Fi shop would be very important if you are not sure of what you are buying yet.

 

In relation to your rear ceiling speakers, I assume that your goal is to use the ceiling speakers as Atmos speakers?

If this is the case you can make the calculation by using the formula below, which is from the YouTube Home Theatre Gurus which I recommend you visit to get more knowledge:

https://www.youtube.com/@hometheatergurus/featured

 

I suggest start watching from Episode 1 and build from there: Ep. 1 - Achieve HUGE sound! Home Theater Setup! Proper placement and Setup !! | Home Theater Gurus

 

Check out in Videos Episode 49 for angles https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4A_frIGG7k. But if you have time keep watching. You will learn lots and then you will be able to make better choices.

 

 

 

[RCADees]

29 minutes ago, Outaluck said:

Once I get over the hump I think I'll enjoy it more.

Don't rush it. This hobby can be lots of fun.

Start small, learn, enjoy and expand with what you learnt.

[Outaluck]

1 hour ago, RCADees said:

I assume that your goal is to use the ceiling speakers as Atmos speakers?

Thanks for that detailed response it helps a lot. My ceiling speakers will be my surrounds not Atmos. The rear wall is a glass door so there is now way to have surrounds/rears at ear level so they will need to be ceiling mounted or have none at all. Atmos would be nice but probably won't work acceptability with the surroundings on the ceiling as well.

 

I was thinking positioning them half way between the seating position and the rear wall (which is about 3m) but I'm just guessing.

Edited March 11, 2024 by Outaluck

[Outaluck]

Which would be the least worst option?

 

3.1

5.1 (with surrounds ceiling mounted) 

3.1.2

5.1.2 (with surrounds & atmos both ceiling mounted) 

[RCADees]

11 hours ago, Outaluck said:

Thanks for that detailed response it helps a lot. My ceiling speakers will be my surrounds not Atmos. The rear wall is a glass door so there is now way to have surrounds/rears at ear level so they will need to be ceiling mounted or have none at all. Atmos would be nice but probably won't work acceptability with the surroundings on the ceiling as well.

 

I was thinking positioning them half way between the seating position and the rear wall (which is about 3m) but I'm just guessing.

 

If you are intending to use those in-ceiling as non Atmos you don't need to follow that guide which is for Atmos.

I don't have experience with the surround in-ceiling configuration, but it may work as surround to give you enough effect, but not Atmos.

On 10/03/2024 at 8:48 PM, Hi-Fi Whipped said:

Not ideal but I’ve been running front LCR and ceiling rears for years and you will have enough enjoyment this way. 80% of the action happens up front and if you get this right you’ll be able to accept the compromise with the rears.

Based on what Hi-Fi Whipped says it sounds like it would work.

 

On 10/03/2024 at 8:48 PM, Hi-Fi Whipped said:

snoopy is right you can’t beat auditioning speakers to get a feel for what you like but given you are just staring out it’s possibly less of an issue, but that said you will quickly know what you don’t like when you hear it!

 

I suggest at this stage do not just decide what configuration it will be. Rather, focus for now on what you can more easily control (Front L-C-R and sub). Audition, investigate, read and continue.

You may be surprised at what well positioned speakers can do.

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Outaluck said:

3.1.2

5.1.2 (with surrounds & atmos both ceiling mounted) 

No such thing as 3.1.2.  And 5.1.2 with ceiling rears and Atmos can be installed, but it will sound wrong.

 

If you want a big improvement, go for 5.2 

[RCADees]

4 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

No such thing as 3.1.2.  And 5.1.2 with ceiling rears and Atmos can be installed, but it will sound wrong.

 

If you want a big improvement, go for 5.2 

I agree with Snoopy8, focus on getting right the "horizon" non Atmos layer.

[Hi-Fi Whipped]

Yeh go for 5.1 or 5.2.

 

if your rear ceiling speakers are decent you will get a lot of the effects at ear level and others higher, it’s a bit like having spatial rear speakers. Again not ideal but much better than no rear effects at all.

[RCADees]

If going for the ceiling surround option, investigate angled speakers. 

Keep in mind that if doing this it is important to match brand/series/timbre with the rest of the set up.

 

Krix offers in ceiling speakers like the IC32 or IC52 https://krix.com.au/ic-52/ with a 20 degree angle . Or the Phoenix 45 https://krix.com.au/phonix-45/ which would give you the 45 angle which is more ideal. But this last one is not in-ceiling and it is big. But you will get a better result.

There are other brands out there which would also allow you to tilt the tweeter so worth investigating.

 

Oh and like everything else in life, it is always a compromise.

[Hi-Fi Whipped]

If you are ok sharing a photo of the room, this could really help getting some speaker placement ideas, maybe theres something you haven't thought of yourself that other would see from looking at the room?

[Outaluck]

3 hours ago, Snoopy8 said:

If you want a big improvement, go for 5.2 

Thanks Snoopy, problem is o can't do traditional 5.2. I am not able to have surrounds at the horizon so trying to get an idea on best eventual layout. Plan is to start with 3.1 and see what ceiling I can add for a more surround experience.

[Outaluck]

2 hours ago, Hi-Fi Whipped said:

Again not ideal but much better than no rear effects at all.

Yeah, that's what I was hopping for, 3.1 with rear ceiling surrounds, a sort of 5.1.

Is there any benefit to adding 4 ceiling speakers rather than two?

[Outaluck]

2 hours ago, RCADees said:

If going for the ceiling surround option, investigate angled speakers.

Thanks for the info and links, so I should look for a 3.1 setup with ceiling speakers from the same manufacturer?