ABC Classic: DAB+ tuner vs Apple Airplay-1 on Marantz NA7004

[georgehifi]

Decided to be an "Audio Nutter" yesterday.  Anyone have a definitive answer to the maniacal round-a-bout I was on yesterday??   

 

Doing A/B's with ABC ClassiC, between these two on the same material being played, and it's doing my head in. (same dac same system) volume control though has to be 6 clicks higher on Airplay than what DAB+ comes through at.

(think I may have just answered my own question "bit stripping"? with DAB+?? having to have the lower digital domain volume control setting? but it sounds better to me most of the time????) See I am going mad with this!!!

 

Sometimes DAB+ "most" times sounds better to me wider sound stage SLIGHTLY more forward mids, bass/highs about the same, and then it'll flip to Airplay-1 being better, but only very occasionally. 

 

Here's what they are, not that it's doing anything for my choice, all are very good no sibilance, extended both ends, punchy and dynamic enough, CD still nails them with the same material.

 

DAB+: (via internal antenna)

120kbps

 

Airplay-1  Casting from iPhone 13 very fast internet speed via modem, speed 100mbps and 7ms ping:

AirPlay 1: 720-1000 Kbps

AirPlay 2: 256 Kbps

 

So looking at this, this "should be the result" but to my ears it's not. No wonder CD has me sold.

Airplay-1 should be the best

Airplay-2 is second best

DAB+ third best

 

Cheers George 

Edited April 27, 2024 by georgehifi

[Misternavi]

I know if I was standing in front of you, you will throw a glass of water in my face but.......... 120kps is more than enough for audio?

How have you connected via airplay (has your DAC got built in airplay? or are your using appleTV?) ? how have you connected to the DAB?

[georgehifi]

18 minutes ago, Misternavi said:

How have you connected via airplay (has your DAC got built in airplay? or are your using appleTV?) ? how have you connected to the DAB?

 

ABC Classic App on my iPhone AirPlay-1 to the Airplay receiver in the Marantz NA7004

ABC Classic DAB+ via the Marantz NA7004 DAB+ tuner section.

From the NA7004 to my MSB Discrete dac.  

 

(I went for Airplay 1 over Airplay 2 because it's said too many times on the net, that 1 is lossless and 2 is lossy ACC MP3. From what I read "if you have a dropout problem" (which I don't) Airplay 2 is better for dropouts because it buffers more but has far less kbps speed than 1 does because of it)

AirPlay 1: 720-1000 Kbps

AirPlay 2: 256 Kbps

 

Cheers George

[georgehifi]

Just to throw another spanner in the works, the iPhone with Radio Paradise App (Mellow mix) set to their highest flac quality and sent again via Airplay-1 to the Marantz NA7004 with digital coax out to the MSB Discrete dac is the very best, only beaten again not by much by Meridian 500 mk11 CD transport aes/ebu to the MSB dac. 

 

Cheers George 

Edited April 28, 2024 by georgehifi

[davm]

Just to add another twist. Have you tried the ABC Classic channel on digital TV (if you can)? I remember reading somewhere an ex-ABC engineer said this was the best digital platform (although that was some time ago).

[georgehifi]

40 minutes ago, davm said:

Just to add another twist. Have you tried the ABC Classic channel on digital TV (if you can)?

 

Would have been interesting, but I don't have a TV receiver in the stereo room.

 

Cheers George

[MLXXX]

11 hours ago, Misternavi said:

I know if I was standing in front of you, you will throw a glass of water in my face but.......... 120kps is more than enough for audio?

How have you connected via airplay (has your DAC got built in airplay? or are your using appleTV?) ? how have you connected to the DAB?

 

The bitrate a DAB+ radio displays is for the total  stream bitrate of the particular service you are listening to, not just the HE-AAC audio part of the stream. 

 

I used to have software that was able to show the actual bitrate of the audio stream of a DAB+ broadcast as distinct from the bitrate allocated to error correction overhead and the bitrate allocated to the slide show.  (Some DAB radios are capable of displaying low resolution slides of the service logo and other images.)

 

The true AAC bitrate of the nominal 120bps stream of the ABC Classic DAB+ service  could be as low as 105kbps.  Does anyone have a precise figure?

 

Accessing a YouTube video you typically get an audio bitrate of around 130 to 140 kbps, and that is a true bitrate.

 

Edited April 28, 2024 by MLXXX

[georgehifi]

Quote

The true AAC bitrate of the nominal 120bps stream of the ABC Classic DAB+ service  could be as low as 105kbps.  Does anyone have a precise figure?

 

Both ways to the Marantz NA7004 digital coax out to the msb dac

Why would ABC Classic via the DAB+ tuner (internal antenna 98-100% signal quality) sound better than the NBN FTTP LAN direct connected to the modem (55Mbps 7ms ping) via the internet?

I assume they both emanate from the same digital source back at the ABC. 

 

Cheers George

Edited April 29, 2024 by georgehifi

[georgehifi]

Just looked at my bitrate for Iphone 13 Airplay-1 to the Marants NA7004 it's doing Radio Paradise (flac) and it's 1411kbps!!! and sounds very good, separation as good as CD and highs as crystalline sounding as CD also, and the mids/bass slam up there with it also.

Radio Paradise for free is a no brainer, but do donations as they get nothing from advertising because they don't have any. 

 

Cheers George

Edited April 29, 2024 by georgehifi

[MLXXX]

On 29/04/2024 at 5:54 AM, georgehifi said:

Why would ABC Classic via the DAB+ tuner (internal antenna 98-100% signal quality) sound better than the NBN FTTP LAN direct connected to the modem (55Mbps 7ms ping) via the internet?

I assume they both emanate from the same digital source back at the ABC. 

 

They may well emanate from the same source, but the lossy encoding bitrate used for an internet service is very often different to the lossy encoding bitrate used for the simultaneous DAB+ service. 

 

Here's an ABC webpage on acccessing ABC radio station streaming using a url: https://help.abc.net.au/hc/en-us/articles/4402927208079-Where-can-I-find-direct-stream-URLs-for-ABC-Radio-stations

 

Checking out one of the links a moment ago,  http://www.abc.net.au/res/streaming/audio/aac/classic_fm.pls , I found it was at only 64kbps.  The quality would be noticeably inferior to  the DAB+ version, which these days would be more like 100kbps [actual bitrate for the audio].

 

I don't know whether what I found this evening is a good indication of the top quality that the ABC can provide for listeners using the internet to access Classic FM.  If it does reflect the normal top streaming quality available, I would definitely be tuning into the FM band broadcast or the DAB+ band broadcast, instead. 

 

 

Edited April 29, 2024 by MLXXX

[georgehifi]

Here something from the tech-heads.

In Australia DAB+ is "MP4", said to be better than MP3 for audio quality.

It's said MP4 is about as good as (similar) as Apple AAC. But the best sounding for streaming still being "Lossless Flac"

 

"Advantages of MP4 Format

MP4 offers several advantages over MP3 files, including better sound quality 

1: Improved audio quality. MP4 files offer improved sound quality when compared to MP3s. They also support higher bit rates and a wider range of audio frequencies.

2: More audio channels. MP4 can contain several audio channels in comparison to the 2 channels supported by MP3s. By utilizing this technology, it is possible to craft recordings with surround sound capabilities or mix multiple instruments simultaneously.

3: Lower file size. MP4 usually takes up less space than MP3, while still having better sound quality. This makes such files ideal for streaming or downloading over slower internet connections.

4: Wider device support. Most devices support the playback of MP4 files, making it a great choice for sharing video and audio content across different platforms."

 

Cheers George

 

 

[betty boop]

On 27/4/2024 at 12:36 PM, georgehifi said:

Airplay-1  Casting from iPhone 13 very fast internet speed via modem, speed 100mbps and 7ms ping:

AirPlay 1: 720-1000 Kbps

AirPlay 2: 256 Kbps

 I am understanding Apple air play 1 (the original airplay) was never lossless as with AirPlay 2

 

https://darko.audio/2023/10/apple-airplay-isnt-always-lossless-sometimes-its-lossy/

 

to get lossless I’d suggest your best way is to run Apple Music or any app directly and natively on your steamer rather than using airplay 

 

things highlighted in last year or so with the eversolo units will see if AirPlay it’s lossy. If stream natively off the steamer or no airplay they can do lossless 

[georgehifi]

21 hours ago, betty boop said:

I am understanding Apple air play 1 (the original airplay) was never lossless as with AirPlay 2

 

 

I'm not using anything now with Apple Airplay 1 or 2. Just DAB+ MP4 for ABC Classic

Windows doing "lossless flac" direct from stations with no meta data sound magic to me now with those two RP ones I've posted up, if you have Windows or Android based to open them as they play auto

 RP  Main mix (flac)  https://stream-eu.radioparadise.com/flac

 

RP  Mellow mix (flac)  https://stream-eu.radioparadise.com/mellow-flac

 

 

And now this one's real good!!  from "MotherEarth Klassic" from Germany without quality robbing meta data attached. "HiRes 24-bit/192kHz Lossless FLAC."

Source is mainly vinyl, so channel separation especially in the bass is not too good, dynamics are are stunning for free streaming with no ads, up there with the best <2000 uncompressed CD issues, even the dust clicks and pops sound real.

You have to wait a while for this one to load, and it can take a couple of refreshes before it stabilizes.

(apple stuff won't open this either in it's original 24/192 lossless flac form if at all)

http://server9.streamserver24.com:18910/motherearth.klassik

 

Cheers George

 

 

 

Edited October 5, 2024 by georgehifi

[georgehifi]

Sorry typo, added to the above post.

 

[georgehifi]

started new thread for these, as it has nothing to do with DAB+

 

https://www.stereonet.com/forums/topic/617946-motherearth-free-2496-lossless-flac-stations-with-no-metadata/

 

 

 

 

Edited October 6, 2024 by georgehifi