Atmos / Spatial Audio in Cars

[Peterbean]

https://www.whathifi.com/features/8-things-i-learned-visiting-a-dolby-atmos-music-mixing-studio
 

 

quite a bit of useful info on tidal, and advocates the car asan ideal listening experience 

 

 

[Guest]

Quote

“If you look at the top 100 streamed artists worldwide you’ll find that 92 of them have already released music in Atmos. And (at the time of writing) 84 per cent of the Billboard Hot 100 songs are available in Dolby Atmos,” says Ziegler.

 

Of those 92 of them, how many set out to create music for Atmos, and how many of them have simply checked the box that says "upmix to Atmos"? This is what I struggle with.

 

It's very hit and miss as discussed at length in the Atmos music discussion threads on here, and some of them actually sound atrocious on a properly executed Atmos system. I'd buy a Steven Wilson Atmos mastered album over the majority of other stuff passing itself off as "Atmos" or "Spatial".

 

I don't take anything written on that site seriously. Every single article is an advertorial in disguise for VPNs or Mosquito Repellents (yes!) .... The content is written purely for SEO purposes and it is glaringly obvious by its use of headlines throughout the article with specific tags used in the code. Some of the writers would be better served at quality publications. One of its newest hi-fi writers/reviewers some months back just admitted that they had just heard their first "hi-fi" system after being recruited over from one of its sports publications recently!  Sorry, rant over.

[Guest]

Quote

Next to having a full Dolby Atmos system at home, the next-best environment to experience the format is arguably in the car. “In a car, we don’t need virtualisation – we have physical speakers around us. It’s a very good translation from the studio environment,” says Ziegler. Of course, a lot of the performance will depend on the tuning and the quality of the in-car system to communicate the detail and the movement of objects around the cabin, but at least in this environment audio engineers know where people will be sitting and the size and shape of the room (cabin) they are in.

 

 

So how is this being achieved without virtualisation in a car? They are not discrete channels. To the best of my knowledge, no car has discrete surround channels yet (maybe some stupidly high end Bentley/RR etc) and it's all being achieved via virtualisation. I am happy to be corrected/informed on this.

 

 

So how is the car a good environment for Atmos music? Note the picture of the Polestar vehicle firmly placed there.

 

Quote

Recently I was lucky enough to be invited to Madrid to take part in the global media drive for the new Polestar 3 electric vehicle. The trip was based around the car’s sound system, which is not only a new offering from Bowers & Wilkins but a system that also supports Dolby Atmos Music from compatible streaming services.

 

OK, there we have it. Needed an editorial given in return for the junket. This was the angle.

[betty boop]

13 hours ago, Peterbean said:

https://www.whathifi.com/features/8-things-i-learned-visiting-a-dolby-atmos-music-mixing-studio

wonder why this cannot come up here as a url ? thats strange ..

 

13 hours ago, Peterbean said:

quite a bit of useful info

definitely interesting and good to see a media publication actually going to effort of not only checking out in car audio but also for its origins  

 

found this part pretty interesting ! I run a 9.1.4 for atmos myself (9.1.6 for other formats) so this is good to hear as indeed will translate well to my setup   

 

"The studio I visited had a system which featured 43 speakers for mixing movie soundtracks in Atmos, including a huge ceiling array and a high ring of speakers that surround the engineers. When mixing Dolby Atmos Music, the engineers switch to a lower ring of ten speakers, plus four ceiling-mounted speakers, making a 9.1.4 set-up. It was explained that because the mix has to translate into different environments, e.g. a car, living room or a pair of headphones, it is easier to start the mixing process using a smaller set-up."

 

great ot hear the effort going in too... this is very encouraging rather than just the use of upmixing methods...  look forward to more of these...

 

"When you think an average stereo mix can take anywhere from four to eight hours, creating a Dolby Atmos version can add a significant amount of time to the process, sometimes taking this to ten or twelve hours. According to del Toro, if you’re not careful and don’t have a clear initial concept, “you could spend a couple of days” on a single track, especially if you’re dealing with multiple objects doing complex movements around the different axes in the soundfield"

 

this below is fantastic info too ! this totally makes sense and something i have noticed too how atmos mixes do indeed sound quieter ... fantastic to hear it leads to the end of the loudness war .. or need for it

"Atmos Music has muted the ‘loudness war’

Because there’s a -18db limit on mixing Atmos Music, there’s no point in pushing tracks louder and louder because you'll just end up compressing the track more and more. In fact, I was told streaming services will reject Atmos mixes that go above this threshold. Because they have a lower ceiling, this is why you tend to find Atmos mixes sound quieter than their stereo equivalents. You can still turn the volume up if you wish to make them louder, but with an Atmos mix, you’re gaining dynamics because there’s less compression."

 

I do find the below pretty interesting ... never realised this ? this is great to hear actually ! 

 

"One of the stipulations for any labels wanting to put music on a streaming platform is that they aren’t allowed to simply put the stereo track into a piece of software and use an algorithm to upmix it to Atmos. “Even if you have to mix from something already produced, they [the labels] still have to send individual tracks, vocals, guitars, drums and backing vocals separated so you can do the mix,” says Ziegler."

 

 

i agree with the below, i do spend a lot of time in cars and its 2nd best really ...any work they can do to improve is appreciated ! 

"the next-best environment to experience the format is arguably in the car. “In a car, we don’t need virtualisation – we have physical speakers around us. It’s a very good translation from the studio environment,” says Ziegler. Of course, a lot of the performance will depend on the tuning and the quality of the in-car system to communicate the detail and the movement of objects around the cabin, but at least in this environment audio engineers know where people will be sitting and the size and shape of the room (cabin) they are in."

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, betty boop said:

"One of the stipulations for any labels wanting to put music on a streaming platform is that they aren’t allowed to simply put the stereo track into a piece of software and use an algorithm to upmix it to Atmos. “Even if you have to mix from something already produced, they [the labels] still have to send individual tracks, vocals, guitars, drums and backing vocals separated so you can do the mix,” says Ziegler."

 

If you believe that ....

 

I know a few engineers that have proof of quite the opposite, unless something has changed in the past few months, and I, sincerely, hope it has. Let's hope they go back through the cataloguess and fix many of them that did just that.

[betty boop]

9 hours ago, Marc said:

So how is this being achieved without virtualisation in a car? They are not discrete channels. To the best of my knowledge, no car has discrete surround channels yet (maybe some stupidly high end Bentley/RR etc) and it's all being achieved via virtualisation. I am happy to be corrected/informed on this.

 

it would be good to find out isnt it ? ould be good for someone in the media to go and actually follow up and understand whether it does or doesn't ? there is little in the media on car audio and yet many makers are putting extra ordinary effort into this space.. 

 

our polestar 2 hk system is just ok...barely id say .  ive had previous cars both merc and bmw with hk systems and they were "not bad" decent enough ...our mini ev hk system is plain amazing.. has a couple of 8" subs under each seat and splits in the door and not come across a factory system like it... so there is hope ... i am encouraged by polestar if their next gen vehicle has both a B&W and atmos system ... be interesting what efforts they have put in it...

 

9 hours ago, Marc said:

OK, there we have it. Needed an editorial given in return for the junket. This was the angle.

this is pretty typical in the media i would think. most media are just attending junkets most of the time at privilege of those airing their wares... atleast in this case the publication has the honesty to declare that they were there on a car companies courtesy ...  

[Guest]

1 minute ago, betty boop said:

it would be good to find out isnt it ? ould be good for someone in the media to go and actually follow up and understand whether it does or doesn't ? there is little in the media on car audio and yet many makers are putting extra ordinary effort into this space.. 

 

 

That would be a great idea. I emailed a consultant that supplies the multi channel amplifiers to OEM just this afternoon. He's a genuis supplying the biggest automakers now with very advanced systems. If anyone would know, he would. Just happens to be a Melbourne-based company too.

As for covering car audio, as you would know I previously owned the largest publication in car audio in Australia for many years, and was the editor of Car Audio magazine before that, and freelanced for others as well. But that industry died. I was trying to steer the publication towards covering the OE side of the business, but it's not great in dealing with anybody outside the car manufacturers. It was impossible to get information, and even harder to get access to vehicles to review them (in Australia, anyway). 
 

BUT, the times have changed, and just last year we introduced StereoAUTO here at StereoNET. So yes, this is a subject close to my heart, and we have every intention of growing this category of the press. 

 

6 minutes ago, betty boop said:

this is pretty typical in the media i would think. most media are just attending junkets most of the time at privilege of those airing their wares... atleast in this case the publication has the honesty to declare that they were there on a car companies courtesy ...  

 

We must be doing it wrong. Whenever we get offered things like that, we turn it down. If we do attend, it's at our own expense. Otherwise, there are certain expectations (case in point here). We abide by certain principles, including the AIAP of which we were founding members. I prefer our way.

[betty boop]

1 minute ago, Marc said:

f you believe that ....

 

I know a few engineers that have proof of quite the opposite, unless something has changed in the past few months, and I, sincerely, hope it has. Let's hope they go back through the cataloguess and fix many of them that did just that.

 

i dont believe anything ....

 

a lot of atmos is absolute rubbish . i have said so myself and many times here. no matter the number of folks going absolutely gaga about it ...the atmos thread here is good demonstration of just this. there is a lot of trash and many seem to just lap it up ...

 

I for one appreciate to hear the effort going in not only in the making but also in the recreation... we have some ways to go to improve things ... 

 

 

[betty boop]

14 hours ago, Peterbean said:

quite a bit of useful info on tidal, and advocates the car asan ideal listening experience 

thanks for posting the original link PB (even if it cant be linked here) , i for one appreciated it 

 

the more we know about this subject matter and more light shed on it the better frankly  

Edited May 25, 2024 by betty boop

[Peterbean]

17 hours ago, Marc said:

 

Of those 92 of them, how many set out to create music for Atmos, and how many of them have simply checked the box that says "upmix to Atmos"? This is what I struggle with.

 

It's very hit and miss as discussed at length in the Atmos music discussion threads on here, and some of them actually sound atrocious on a properly executed Atmos system. I'd buy a Steven Wilson Atmos mastered album over the majority of other stuff passing itself off as "Atmos" or "Spatial".

 

I don't take anything written on that site seriously. Every single article is an advertorial in disguise for VPNs or Mosquito Repellents (yes!) .... The content is written purely for SEO purposes and it is glaringly obvious by its use of headlines throughout the article with specific tags used in the code. Some of the writers would be better served at quality publications. One of its newest hi-fi writers/reviewers some months back just admitted that they had just heard their first "hi-fi" system after being recruited over from one of its sports publications recently!  Sorry, rant over.

The article points out that music that is just processed through a simple program is not accepted by the streaming services 

[Guest]

Interestingly I did some tests tonight with Apple Music via CarPlay, which has Spatial offerings.

 

My vehicle is promoted as a "Burmester Premium 3D sound system, which also includes Dolby Atmos".

Within the vehicle settings there are no settings or reference to Atmos, only "3D Sound" and "Surround", which can be adjusted in intensity to one's preference.

Firing up tracks there was no indication of Atmos being enabled or in use in any way, unlike it does when played back on a system with discrete channels via an AVR or processor.

 

Fairly convinced that in the case of my vehicle at least, and with Apple MUsic, there is nothing discrete about it, and it's 100% virtualised.

Further, turning Surround and 3D settings off on the vehicle provided a much more realistic and natural sound.

 

Spatial Audio tracks from Apple Music.

 

 

 

 

Tomorrow I'll try Tidal to be sure it's not an Apple thing.

 

Still waiting to hear back from some experts in the field regarding discrete channels in OEM applications, and additional information in this area.

It will be nice to have some clarification on this, as I too do like genuine Atmos music - thanks to @Snoopy8 who's been a big advocate for it.

[Guest]

@Marc since you already have, and like, Yello: Point (also on Apple Music, Tidal), use that as your test piece in the car. As you know, it uses all channels, including heights and is a genuine Atmos album.  

 

You are correct in saying that there are many virtualised tracks on Apple and Tidal.  It gets more confusing when Apple include spatial tracks virtualised for headphones. How all this translates to Atmos in cars is something I do not have experience with  ...

[Guest]

 

OK I'm still determined to get to the bottom of this. My car is not a Maybach (I wish), but is advertised as having "Dolby Atmos" on the Dolby Atmos for Cars website. 

 

I have now confirmed I can't get Atmos to fire via CarPlay which is how I was expecting it to work initially. I have discovered it will work via the car's native Apple Music app by creating a cellular hotspot to access data. Once I made this connection, I have now managed to get Atmos to play via Apple Music. I have not yet tried TIDAL using the same method.

 

The interface is crap for specifically finding Atmos music, but if you know what you are looking for you can just search that. I'm still convinced it's not "discrete", and must be using my dash speakers to 'upfire' the Atmos channels. I would assume it's using the known locations of the speakers and shifting the frequency ranges of those drivers. You can dial up or down "Surround" and "3D". Go too far and it sounds totally diffused and almost out of phase. There's a happy medium that when just right, actually sounds very good on the right albums, such as Yello's Touch album. I like it. Atmos definitely got the car's subs working, at very least.

 

 

[Hi-Fi Whipped]

3 hours ago, Marc said:

 

OK I'm still determined to get to the bottom of this. My car is not a Maybach (I wish), but is advertised as having "Dolby Atmos" on the Dolby Atmos for Cars website. 

 

I have now confirmed I can't get Atmos to fire via CarPlay which is how I was expecting it to work initially. I have discovered it will work via the car's native Apple Music app by creating a cellular hotspot to access data. Once I made this connection, I have now managed to get Atmos to play via Apple Music. I have not yet tried TIDAL using the same method.

 

The interface is crap for specifically finding Atmos music, but if you know what you are looking for you can just search that. I'm still convinced it's not "discrete", and must be using my dash speakers to 'upfire' the Atmos channels. I would assume it's using the known locations of the speakers and shifting the frequency ranges of those drivers. You can dial up or down "Surround" and "3D". Go too far and it sounds totally diffused and almost out of phase. There's a happy medium that when just right, actually sounds very good on the right albums, such as Yello's Touch album. I like it. Atmos definitely got the car's subs working, at very least.

 

 

Nice work, how does it sound compared to the usual stereo signal thats upmixed by your sound system?

[Guest]

I didn't want it to sound better, if I'm honest, and I kept flipping between the two with a touch of a button handily, but yes, it undoubtedly sounds better. It's different in sound to my Atmos listening in my cinema with discrete channels - by a long margin. But it does add a bigger soundstage and somehow manages to get the subs to actually work too for bottom end reinforcement. I flicked through a couple of modern pop releases and they were atrocious, just like they are even in my cinema. But the Yello stuff, and I think it was Parsons' Eye in the Sky (don't quote me if it was that one that was Atmos), sounded great. I still maintain there are a number of "tick this button to make it Atmos" tracks uploaded to services, despite what was quoted in the earlier article in this thread.

 

What does suck though is it's almost impossible to find only Atmos music via the native Apple Music app. I'll try TIDAL later this evening and see what I find.

[BugPowderDust]

There's also this https://bendodson.com/projects/spatial-audio-finder/?fbclid=IwAR3IMxC4SFVbcXIjYccFnVWE2XPbzBpDdzWd9QcSr-HZCJf53T42VgEmMtM

Not native in the app but helpful?

[Guest]

That could be helpful as it will be easier to search a playlist I have created of just Atmos tracks I like.

Thanks for the tip!

[powerav]

To find Atmos in Apple you can go to Browse and scroll right to the bottom and click on Spatial Audio in More To Explore. At least it breaks them all up in genres.

[Guest]

That's all fine and well on an Apple device, but not in the Apple Music interface on the MB OEM interface, sadly.

[powerav]

2 minutes ago, Marc said:

That's all fine and well on an Apple device, but not in the Apple Music interface on the MB OEM interface, sadly.

Oh yes that would be a challenge 

[betty boop]

11 hours ago, Marc said:

I have now confirmed I can't get Atmos to fire via CarPlay which is how I was expecting it to work initially

not a surprise unfortunately airplay i dont think can even do lossless so can imagine hobbled to so atmos. its fine enough for bopping along with day to day but probably limited overall in what can extend to i suspect.

 

11 hours ago, Marc said:

I'm still convinced it's not "discrete", and must be using my dash speakers to 'upfire' the Atmos channels.

this is quite possible.. I dont know your vehicle and not sure any have this .. but does your car actualy have height speakers ie in conventional 9.1.4 config the article was talking about streaming mixed aiming for ? if there arent actualy any height and they are indeed trying to do a sound bouncing off things as those upward firing atmos effects speakers do.. or using "virtual atmos speakers " then that in itself is going to be  giving pretty hit and miss results as i have experienced myself in systems without actual height speakers trying to pull of some semblance of "atmos"...

 

be interesting what you find with tidal incase its also some apple limitations ... 

[Guest]

37 minutes ago, betty boop said:

not a surprise unfortunately airplay i dont think can even do lossless so can imagine hobbled to so atmos. its fine enough for bopping along with day to day but probably limited overall in what can extend to i suspect.

 

 

Is there link between CarPlay and AirPlay I am not aware of? Genuine question.

[Guest]

TIDAL is a non-starter. Had to reactivate my subscription to test, but quickly cancelled after I couldn't get anything to "light up" as Atmos.
Even switching between a known Atmos track from Yello on Apple Music, and then switching to the same track on TIDAL, they sound vastly different.

What have I learned so far? CarPlay won't do Atmos/Spatial Audio. Apple Music can when used natively (at least with MB). TIDAL can't in any circumstance.

 

I have now reached out to Dolby and MB for further information.

 

What is annoying is I now prefer Atmos music in my car, it just sounds better. Which is crap because the interface sucks as previously mentioned. But I will create a playlist on my phone of tracks I do like that are available in Atmos, and then use that in the car which is easy to navigate to.

[Guest]

More information:

 

Quote

These cutting-edge audio setups boast an impressive array of 31 speakers, which fully unleash the true potential of Dolby Atmos.

 

One can now enjoy the immersive experience of Dolby Atmos with Spatial Audio from Apple Music in various Mercedes-Benz models. Mercedes-Benz vehicles are the first non-Apple devices to offer this native integration with Spatial Audio and Dolby Atmos directly from Apple Music.

 

I should have Googled more days ago, but at least that is what I have now also confirmed. As we know, it's often all in the search term and I know knew what to search

[betty boop]

6 minutes ago, Marc said:

 

Is there link between CarPlay and AirPlay I am not aware of? Genuine question.

 

oh that's just me calling wireless CarPlay airplay and no it cant do lossless. also connected up via usb there is limitations .. i am pretty sure it can do cd losses but cant imagine atmos and bandwidth it needs for 9.1.4 and such ? 

 

this apple discussion thread says atmos is broken with CarPlay since 15.4 not sure they fixed it since .. also one post saying its not even possible with usb... 

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/254864965?sortBy=best

 

this is also interesting ... 

https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/threads/dolby-atmos-car-play.32350/page-2

 

some genuine industry knowledge would be good I think to clarify the current state of play and whats possible or not .... of platforms and connection or streaming means.

 

Id love to even know if a car exists out there with true in ceiling height speakers for the 9.1.4 ... they say atmos streaming is capable off ?