Time aligned Horns

[statman]

Its no secret that I get bored to tears listening to moving coil in box speakers.  Sure you need a big room and good horns are rare , and always outlandish size .  Most horns are attempts to get high quality horn sound in a smaller package, but when its right.......

Re below: the two axes is so important to getting that "back in a recording studio" sound - time alignment and precise crossover design makes the magic happen.

$600K is over the top, you can get the same , even better sound with vintage JBL  PA horns , and a lot of work.   Now watch all the more money than sense gurus  go on about "horn sound" 

 

 

 

Robert Harley Review :

When I walked into the show’s largest room and saw the massive, almost cartoonish-looking Cessaro Zeta horn system, my first thought was that this odd-looking contraption could never work or sound “of a piece” from top to bottom. That prejudice was instantly dispelled seconds into the first piece of music. Simply put, the Zeta was absolutely stunning in its realistic portrayal of instrumental timbre, dynamics, imaging, and ability to conjure up the illusion of the physical presence of musical instruments. This was particularly true on brass instruments—the trumpet and sax on Basie Jam or an Art Blakey album, for examples. It was like being transported to the recording studio by a time machine. The many design details are too extensive for a show report but suffice to say that the conception and execution are heroic, including the ability to articulate each driver in two axes, including the massive upper horn, for perfect time alignment at the listening position. The five-way system has a sensitivity of an astonishing 112dB. Huge and impractical for all but a very few, the $600,000 Cessaro Zeta nonetheless demonstrates the potential of horns when realized with this level of execution

 

 

[Guest]

I'm not sure is there an actual question here?

 

Horns don't need to be a mega expensive - other than from a production point of view, commercially, they are going to end up more expensive than traditional box speakers. They are much harder to ship around the world, which contributes to a product's price. The aesthetic is also not going to appeal to a wide audience, so you're only going to tend to find boutique manufacturers that cannot scale, hence pushing the prices further north.

 

But I would agree that there's something a well executed horn system does that traditional box speakers can never do - trumpets, sax, etc as you have suggested; totally agree on that. There's an "air" and texture you get from those types of instruments when played back through compression drivers and horns that just sounds right. 

 

Most of the more affordable ones I have heard that do it right are DIY and usually still a work in progress. I built a small horn based system with AE woofers, JBL compression drivers mated to Azzurahorn horns, running active and configured with MiniDSP/DEQX some years back. Due to my living situation at the time, it was nearfield listening, and to this day I often wonder if I am enjoying music playback as much as I was when listening to that system. Based on enjoyment and excitement levels, it leaves my Everests in the dust even today.

 

The big systems just do it bigger (not necessarily better, IMO). Bigger room, bigger soundstage, and IMO it's just about scale. That smaller setup that I had with a 12" Le Cleac'h horn was absolutely ample for the small room I was in. I've heard setups like you post about above in BIG rooms, but they're just for that. BIG spaces. I don't think there's necessarily any correlation between money vs quality - any different to any other aspect of hi-fi though. Obviously you're going to need to quality electronics as the horns will typically reveal all weaknesses upstream, in my experience.

 

A good system will likely be a combination of old and new (horns running active and tuned with DSP). I spent a lot of time listening to Duc's system (Golden Age Audio) years ago before he sadly passed - and while it was never really finished, he had refined it as far as he could with passive crossovers. Active wasn't for him, so he was content, but knew he could get more out of it in an active and DSP configuration. 

 

I believe those that criticise horns, haven't yet spent enough time actually listening to a well executed system in the right environment (non-show).

[mwhouston]

28 minutes ago, statman said:

Its no secret that I get bored to tears listening to moving coil in box speakers.  Sure you need a big room and good horns are rare , and always outlandish size .  Most horns are attempts to get high quality horn sound in a smaller package, but when its right.......

Re below: the two axes is so important to getting that "back in a recording studio" sound - time alignment and precise crossover design makes the magic happen.

$600K is over the top, you can get the same , even better sound with vintage JBL  PA horns , and a lot of work.   Now watch all the more money than sense gurus  go on about "horn sound" 

 

 

 

Robert Harley Review :

When I walked into the show’s largest room and saw the massive, almost cartoonish-looking Cessaro Zeta horn system, my first thought was that this odd-looking contraption could never work or sound “of a piece” from top to bottom. That prejudice was instantly dispelled seconds into the first piece of music. Simply put, the Zeta was absolutely stunning in its realistic portrayal of instrumental timbre, dynamics, imaging, and ability to conjure up the illusion of the physical presence of musical instruments. This was particularly true on brass instruments—the trumpet and sax on Basie Jam or an Art Blakey album, for examples. It was like being transported to the recording studio by a time machine. The many design details are too extensive for a show report but suffice to say that the conception and execution are heroic, including the ability to articulate each driver in two axes, including the massive upper horn, for perfect time alignment at the listening position. The five-way system has a sensitivity of an astonishing 112dB. Huge and impractical for all but a very few, the $600,000 Cessaro Zeta nonetheless demonstrates the potential of horns when realized with this level of execution

 

 

On a much smaller scale my refurbed DIY Altec 511 horns with top of the range FaitalPro compression drives give me as much realism as I could want in a domestic environment. A little cheaper also. But I would like to hear the rig above. 

[acg]

100% concur.

 

What I am listening to right at this moment...

 

 

 

No need either for a massive room...just big enough to fit them and still be able to walk around them.

[Guest]

Regarding scale and the listening space .... 

 

 

[davewantsmoore]

1 hour ago, Marc said:

But I would agree that there's something a well executed horn system does that traditional box speakers can never do - trumpets, sax, etc as you have suggested; totally agree on that. There's an "air" and texture you get from those types of instruments when played back through compression drivers and horns that just sounds right.

 

I think that people commonly mistake the cause of this for "sensitivity", or "efficiency"..... something along the lines of a small and light sports car obviously getting around the racetrack better than a minivan......  but the true cause is much more related to directivity.

 

It is that the SPL that it not aimed directly at the listener, much more closely follows the frequency response curve of the SPL reaching you directly.   This is what contributes to the "clarity", "immediateness", and "detail", that horns can have.

 

1 hour ago, Marc said:

It was near field listening

It is often said that "a large room is needed" for horns.... but if you think about the problem of directivity, it actually gets worse the closer you are to the room surfaces .... so horns can actually be (even) more helpful in a small room.

 

Although you cannot sit very close to a "multi-way" horn system.... and a multi-way horn is very difficult (and problematic) to design.   I think the best number of horns in a speaker is one, reaching as low as practical.

 

1 hour ago, Marc said:

to this day I often wonder if I am enjoying music playback as much as I was when listening to that system.

 

1 hour ago, Marc said:

Obviously you're going to need to quality electronics as the horns will typically reveal all weaknesses upstream, in my experience.

High efficiency speakers definitely reveal any issues in gain structure (ie. is there any noise from electronics being allowed through unnecessarily).

 

[mwhouston]

17 minutes ago, acg said:

100% concur.

 

What I am listening to right at this moment...

 

 

 

No need either for a massive room...just big enough to fit them and still be able to walk around them.

Like most things in life; too much can be too much. Im a keep it simple man though a complex being myself. 

[acg]

59 minutes ago, mwhouston said:

Like most things in life; too much can be too much. Im a keep it simple man though a complex being myself. 

 

Would have thought that "simple" and 5 way time aligned horns are mutually exclusive concepts.

 

[La scala]

2 hours ago, statman said:

Its no secret that I get bored to tears listening to moving coil in box speakers.  Sure you need a big room and good horns are rare , and always outlandish size .  Most horns are attempts to get high quality horn sound in a smaller package, but when its right.......

Re below: the two axes is so important to getting that "back in a recording studio" sound - time alignment and precise crossover design makes the magic happen.

$600K is over the top, you can get the same , even better sound with vintage JBL  PA horns , and a lot of work.   Now watch all the more money than sense gurus  go on about "horn sound" 

 

 

 

Robert Harley Review :

When I walked into the show’s largest room and saw the massive, almost cartoonish-looking Cessaro Zeta horn system, my first thought was that this odd-looking contraption could never work or sound “of a piece” from top to bottom. That prejudice was instantly dispelled seconds into the first piece of music. Simply put, the Zeta was absolutely stunning in its realistic portrayal of instrumental timbre, dynamics, imaging, and ability to conjure up the illusion of the physical presence of musical instruments. This was particularly true on brass instruments—the trumpet and sax on Basie Jam or an Art Blakey album, for examples. It was like being transported to the recording studio by a time machine. The many design details are too extensive for a show report but suffice to say that the conception and execution are heroic, including the ability to articulate each driver in two axes, including the massive upper horn, for perfect time alignment at the listening position. The five-way system has a sensitivity of an astonishing 112dB. Huge and impractical for all but a very few, the $600,000 Cessaro Zeta nonetheless demonstrates the potential of horns when realized with this level of execution

 

 

Hi Mick 

Been working on the workhorses La Scala, 2.5 days of passive xo tweets plus

added those JBL E120 12” dual front loaded horns and additional ev3500  tweetles to get a tremendous sound stage happening esp on those CJ premier 5s and Supratek Pre.

Yes, just need to time align the rear gear but rather pleasing results for what it is.

Still a far cry from the home flappers outfit but rather enjoyable none the less. 

The Cessaro gear is amazing as is the Aries horns , just not enough $ in my lifetime.

[Keith_W]

1 hour ago, davewantsmoore said:

It is often said that "a large room is needed" for horns.... but if you think about the problem of directivity, it actually gets worse the closer you are to the room surfaces .... so horns can actually be (even) more helpful in a small room.

 

I had a bit of trouble understanding you there so i'll have a go at rephrasing your statement. "Speakers with a broad radiation pattern are worse if they are placed close to walls because early reflections are created. Reflections need to be diffused, late, and reduced in amplitude. Therefore small rooms with wide directivity speakers is bad, since reflections are directional, early, and of almost equivalent SPL to the direct sound. What is needed are speakers with a narrow radiation pattern, such as the case with horns". Is this what you meant? 

 

The problem with horns is that (1) the cone of radiation is narrow, and (2) large multi-driver horns have multiple narrow cones of radiation which are distanced widely apart and all need to converge. This is normally achieved by a certain minimum listening distance. 

 

Linkwitz said that the ideal speaker is acoustically small (i.e. as close to a point source as possible) whilst being capable of producing enough SPL. Large multi-horn speakers are very far from this ideal and can only achieve this with sufficient distance. If you sit too close to the speakers, there is either no convergent point, or the convergent point is very small. Small changes in head position results in massive changes in tonality. A point source horn like the PSE-144 comes closer to this ideal. 

 

I will say that narrow directivity is helpful in small rooms. Large multi-horn speakers are not. Acoustically small single horns are OK. 

[davewantsmoore]

44 minutes ago, Keith_W said:

"Speakers with a broad radiation pattern are worse if they are placed close to walls because early reflections are created

Yes.

 

44 minutes ago, Keith_W said:

The problem with horns is that (1) the cone of radiation is narrow, and (2) large multi-driver horns have multiple narrow cones of radiation which are distanced widely apart and all need to converge. This is normally achieved by a certain minimum listening distance. 

Number 2 is such a significant problem.... I believe even in bigger rooms/larger distances.... that I believe that the "best number of horns is one".    Multiple horns are too big, spaced too far apart, reflect off each other, have differently varying (and overlapping) directivities .... it's a hot mess.

 

44 minutes ago, Keith_W said:

Linkwitz said that the ideal speaker is acoustically small (i.e. as close to a point source as possible) whilst being capable of producing enough SPL. Large multi-horn speakers are very far from this ideal

He was right about very many things.

Yes.

 

44 minutes ago, Keith_W said:

A point source horn like the PSE-144 comes closer to this ideal. 

That is why I use them.

I was trying to build my own (danley/synergy) style horns, when Paul did a much better job.   I can design them OK (ish.... it's hard), but building them is very challenging also.

 

44 minutes ago, Keith_W said:

I will say that narrow directivity is helpful in small rooms. 

Doesn't need to be super duper narrow.... although anything is narrower than a typical boxed multiway speaker that is almost totally wide ...... constant (SPL vs frequency vs angle) is what is critical.

 

IMVHO anyways..... with more traditional types of speakers (boxed, no horn or small horn) the only way to approach constant directivity is to have the coverage quite wide.

Edited May 25, 2024 by davewantsmoore

[La scala]

Interesting , you are using PSE144 Flappers too. Originally found them missing the mark until dampening their thin construction plus fitting the top Faital pro tweet and atm only one BMS mid comp driver.

I very much agree with the point source attributes vs multi horns wider spacing difficulties as encountered in a std room size environment.

 

I have found that in a std size room the unity horn excels and takes you away , however multi horns in a very rather large listening environment can unite very nicely and tend to excell with a tremendously huge soundstage that floats with such ease vs a more compact intimate detailed presentation of the unity horns , applicable to my rooms and setups.

We all know how fussy horns can be but one listen to a well implemented horn system is rarely ever forgotten. 
Addicted to feeling every note to the core with horns. The only sensation I miss with horns however , is the occasional goosebumps the Ambience Grand Reference Ribbon speakers were capable of.  Shall dig em back out again one day.

 

happy days

[La scala]

With all the helpful horn info online re time alignment with horns , there still seems to be two camps of ideals.

Most points to align all voice coils vs some claiming the mysterious spot somewhere in the throat ? 

Any input on these be helpful. 
Sadly the large system relys on DSP Time Delay to find the optimised compromise.

Edited May 25, 2024 by La scala

[Grant Slack]

6 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

...High efficiency speakers definitely reveal any issues in gain structure (ie. is there any noise from electronics being allowed through unnecessarily).

 

Tell me about it, Dave. 

[davewantsmoore]

21 hours ago, Grant Slack said:

Tell me about it, Dave. 

Modern systems almost universally have too much gain available.

 

IMVHO a great many subjective and casual evaluations of "budget electronics" are fouled up by them being used with far from optimal gain structure .... thus magnifying their "noise floor".

 

On 25/5/2024 at 2:57 PM, La scala said:

With all the helpful horn info online re time alignment with horns

It is usually far from helpful IME.

 

On 25/5/2024 at 2:57 PM, La scala said:

there still seems to be two camps of ideals.

Most points to align all voice coils vs some claiming the mysterious spot somewhere in the throat ? 

Any input on these be helpful. 

Often neither.

 

The phase responses of the horns, with their crossover filters, needs to be considered... and matched with the neighbouring horns, so the phase from multiple drivers aligns over a wide range.

 

You need to measure this, and/or simulate it.

 

The rule which says to align the transducers .... only works if the phase of the responses of the two transducers is a mirror image of each other (eg. a 24dB/octave high pass response.... meeting with a 24dB/octave low pass response) ...... however if they're not (and they may not be), then some other distance offset will be needed (or a time delay, which is just the same as a physical distance offset).

[La scala]

2 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

 

Often neither.

 

The phase responses of the horns, with their crossover filters, needs to be considered... and matched with the neighbouring horns, so the phase from multiple drivers aligns over a wide range.

 

You need to measure this, and/or simulate it.

 

The rule which says to align the transducers .... only works if the phase of the responses of the two transducers is a mirror image of each other (eg. a 24dB/octave high pass response.... meeting with a 24dB/octave low pass response) ...... however if they're not (and they may not be), then some other distance offset will be needed (or a time delay, which is just the same as a physical distance offset).

Mnn yes, so fairly on the right track with the good old time Dalay functionality.

 

I find it very handy to sync the drivers and minuscule time differences are easily audible and place the soundstage to inviting or right in front of you , depending ones preferences.

 

So once the desired time delays are converted to actual wavelength length measurements , these are then useful to move a specific driver forwards or backwards by these given amounts.
The  dsp can be turned off , presto. 
 

Man , starting to be intrigued by the Aries Cerat Aurora , a rather domestically acceptable package.

 

Ohh , open baffle - bass , mids and ribbons done right can be very addictive as experienced at Mick from Supratek some time ago ,  it really took me away...

 

Well I’d possibly be keen to diy reverse engineer this Aries aurora concept in the near future as have all required  drivers and ribbons at hand. Who knows it may become the birth of studio 23.

Happy days 

Edited May 26, 2024 by La scala

[statman]

Lascala I remember that time we had those OB' singing, that was special sound, especially the soaring violins. Field coil drivers, passive line level crossovers , lots of tubes.

Could never get it to sound that good again, messed up a beautiful synergy. 

Part of the journey.

[THOMO]

I suspect getting the horns out of the room and behind a wall/baffle would help.A good arrangement might be to set them up in a living room with a garage behind ,a framed wall divider and have only the horn mouths in the living room. And the wife's car in the driveway !With the rest of the garage for left over speaker bits .

[La scala]

On 26/05/2024 at 5:55 PM, THOMO said:

I suspect getting the horns out of the room and behind a wall/baffle would help.A good arrangement might be to set them up in a living room with a garage behind ,a framed wall divider and have only the horn mouths in the living room. And the wife's car in the driveway !With the rest of the garage for left over speaker bits .

One would think so , however simulate this only slightly by once adding a huge baffle board for a midrange horn( JBL2240 ) and the diffraction obscured the sound in a negative way as well as loosing on soundstage depth. 

However , this bass diffuser that I am playing with atm seems to deliver wonderfully tight tuneful bass. JBL Paragon inspired .
 

[THOMO]

Like a JBL Paragon!

[statman]

I had a listen to Volkers "Paragon" the other night- very nice , great bass. 

[La scala]

Wow it’s been well over a year now since time aligning the vintage horn rig at work.

With the easy on the fly  adjustability from the 4 way crossover , the time alignment frontier became very interesting learning curve. 
So this delightful ability to instantly  alter the sound scape via Time Delays for each Chanel became mega addictive  as the soundstage grew into something coherent and inviting.

The magic active  Yami Crossover allows the  ability to get somewhere near to extracting the most out of the horns potential. 
The final treat check is always saved for last once the low to casual listening levels have locked in well enough and don’t mysteriously disappear the next day.. as known to happen after initial wows of tweaking. 

The concert like 100db playback level test always excites to the core , find it essential to ensure all remain on time and in doing so stay silky smooth , composed and fatigue free.

 

[La scala]

Think it’s time for a little horn post. 
Positive results and rewarding progress on the horn diy front,  sounding like getting half way there ….. at time of attached vid , comparing horn spacing and diffraction panel positions effect.

 

Recent highlights in modified horn driver being a single coaxial driver ,  The insane benefit in rounding off speaker edges to null those  horrible edge diffractions , Off axis sound now remains greatly intact , imaging starts to bloom and coherence takes shape.

Rounded horn edges , like Aries Cerat  , Le Clac , Acapella horns sport  aren’t just  for looks nor qualify for the asking price tag , but rather essential  . I am surprised not more recognise the  edge diffraction effect , it’s extremely audible and  surprisingly also very much on bass enclosures.

 

Oh the effect of Room treatments is a whole new frontier , also with great effect.

happy days

 

 

[crtexcnndrm99]

What horn spacing conclusions did you arrive at? 
 

Wondering if these changes to the room and horn diffraction led to crossover modifications?

 

 Thanks for sharing

[La scala]

On 7/3/2025 at 1:15 AM, crtexcnndrm99 said:

What horn spacing conclusions did you arrive at? 
 

Wondering if these changes to the room and horn diffraction led to crossover modifications?

 

 Thanks for sharing

Horn spacing atm seem spot on at  1.65m apart , horns to bass X over at 500hz / 18db , the horns spacing roughly equals  just over 2 X 500hz wavelength . This has achieved my goal to enjoy a solid centre image form speakers / horns to semi disappear , create a vast soundstage plus offer deep imaging.
Note however some of this is going to be different on other horns / rooms etc …but maybe a starting point for a tight setup.
The Cardas rule  set up not ideal for horns. For desired  bass,  Ideally allow a whole wavelength if room allows.

 

Some Pointers in found 

. Sound  out the maximum off axis  SQ on one horns outer limit and measure it , the Azura should be great for wide off axis integrity. If it’s say 1 m from horn edge then start with horns 2m apart and +/- from there till centre image blooms and horns start to disappear.

. Sound out the horns sweet spot relative to placement height in your room 

. Width apart vs Toe in or out or extreme toe in , whatever you prefer, but once  the horns are starting to disappear , is optimum

. Aiming entire horn to  Equal distance to ears  , aim top edge ,  sides, and bottom horn edge equally.

. bass posi / integration is another chapter , bass boxes do not have to be positioned directly under horn , the more point source and time aligned  is the goal.

 

The Geddes style open cell foam alters sound and easy to try and effective , Its a handy aid to tame comp drivers , throats initially..

Cheers  Started out with JBL 2440 std alloy 2441 std alloy ant Ti 2445s .

 

. 

Edited March 9 by La scala