Help me choose a CD Player

[JkSpinner]

 

Hi all, as the title says, help me choose a CD Player.  My OPPO 105 recently died so I am in the market for a new CD player.  I will also be buying a Streamer (most likely Lumin) but after much thought, would still like a CD Player.  I am not interested in a Transport.  I almost pulled the pin on a Rotel DT 6000 Diamond edition last week, but it looks like all remaining stock is sold.  Budget is up to $5k, but happy to spend less considering I will most likely be streaming more often.  Ideally, I am looking for one with a decent DAC, a decent power supply, balanced output, and preferably balanced circuitry.  I am looking for reliability and longevity.  Are there any brands I should be considering, and any brands I should stay away from.  I have browsed Marantz, Denon, advanced Paris, Simaudio Moon, Arcam, Primare, Yamaha  and others.  I generally stick with common brands but happy to look at others.  I generally like a good warranty as well.  I also like simple, I would like a CD player (or SACD) that is just a CD player, I am not looking for a digital hub.

thanks

 

 

Edited June 1, 2024 by JkSpinner
Additional info

[oldrose]

If you need SACD then the lower spec Denon is very good and Melbourne HiFi have it on special at the moment here.

 

If SACD is not required then the Rega Saturn should run for many years with no issues.

[ThirdDrawerDown]

I've found the Marantz CD/SACD units deliver a CD sound which is Redbook or better. SA 14S1 owner.

 

Check and test your proposed signal path in practice for usability and before you buy. Especially for streaming. Aspects of the Marantz I have found frustrating.

 

At your price point I have seen Accuphase recommended in these columns but I am no expert, not having heard them. But what I can recommend, having heard, are the better models of the Audia Flight brand.

[JkSpinner]

7 hours ago, ThirdDrawerDown said:

I've found the Marantz CD/SACD units deliver a CD sound which is Redbook or better. SA 14S1 owner.

 

Check and test your proposed signal path in practice for usability and before you buy. Especially for streaming. Aspects of the Marantz I have found frustrating.

 

At your price point I have seen Accuphase recommended in these columns but I am no expert, not having heard them. But what I can recommend, having heard, are the better models of the Audia Flight brand.

Thanks - what do you mean signal path.

i am very keen on Marantz, I do like the Marantz sound, they offer good warranty, and I believe longevity, would have to be one of the most common older CDP’s around, I understand they also make much of the internals and share components among various players, so spare parts and future service should be less of a problem.  I also like the idea of their own DAC process, however I could always also plug it into the back of the Lumin streamer DAC when I get it.

I am considering the SACD 30N at $1000 off now, $4k is a pretty good buy, and I could probably use it as a streamer for now, and put off the more expensive Lumin purchase for now.  But I tried using HEOS on my Denon HT amp unsuccessfully, so agree with your thoughts around Marantz and streaming, although some persistence may pay off there.  But it is a little jack of all trades, so not simple, and does not have balanced output.  I like the SA 12 etc, as a CDP only, but hear Marantz are just about to release a new model.

audio flight do a $6k player as well, but I think it’s a slot loader.

thanks

[maximus]

I was going to mention the Denon DCD A-110, but it's only a single ended connection, a shame because it's one fabulous player and your preference is for XLR.

[JkSpinner]

On 1/6/2024 at 12:15 PM, oldrose said:

If you need SACD then the lower spec Denon is very good and Melbourne HiFi have it on special at the moment here.

 

If SACD is not required then the Rega Saturn should run for many years with no issues.

I have been looking at the Reta’s, I love the top loading idea, but not sure I have the top shelf space, but keep coming back to it.  Denon - yes Denon.  The whole Denon / Marantz thing confuses me, same company / two different lines that do the same thing.  The 1700 gets great reviews at a great price, but I do like the 110 anniversary model, I wish it was on special

[JkSpinner]

2 minutes ago, maximus said:

I was going to mention the Denon DCD A-110, but it's only a single ended connection, a shame because it's one fabulous player and your preference is for XLR.

Ha, strange, I just mentioned the DCD A-110 in a separate response.  My preference is XLR and balanced circuitry, however my current amp, and I do not really plan on changing (Michi X5) only has one set of balanced inputs, as many amps do, and my plan is to use them for the Lumin Streamer.  But to be honest, I am not convinced it makes to much of a difference.  
at that price do I lean towards the Denon A 110 or the Marantz SACD 30N or SA 12SE (or replacement)

[ThirdDrawerDown]

Because you are looking at longevity, the CD servicing expert who is here on SNA and is based in WA is someone perhaps to contact directly. Unfortunately I cannot recall his nom/ username. 

[Steff]

3 minutes ago, ThirdDrawerDown said:

Because you are looking at longevity, the CD servicing expert who is here on SNA and is based in WA is someone perhaps to contact directly. Unfortunately I cannot recall his nom/ username. 

@rockeater

[Grizzly]

Though it doesn't sport the XLR connections, there is a Sugden Fusion 21 player available in Brisbane currently that may suit? Certainly has an impeccable sonic pedigree! The Groove Man is the seller.

[rockeater]

8 hours ago, JkSpinner said:

 But to be honest, I am not convinced it makes to much of a difference.

It makes huge difference if:

On 01/06/2024 at 9:19 AM, JkSpinner said:

and preferably balanced circuitry

you have a proper balanced circuitry all they way through.

That is not only your player, but also the amp that has to be fully balanced and not just having a balanced input on XLRs.

Send me the Service Manual for your amp and I will tell you if it is.

I will write to you in more detail later tonight or tomorrow.

In general, I find your set of criteria pretty much close to perfection. I would only add a good laser mechanism, which sadly means an older unit, because no decent lasers were in production this century. This goes to reliability, which is very hard to get with current cheap offerings.

 

I only have second hand units (mabne 20 or so) and can offer you one of my two Wadia 16 units that I have (the better one).

Of all the players I have ever serviced over the years, this is the best one I have come across and it has:

True balanced circuitry - in fact it has 6 audio amps on the output. Four for hot and cold on XLRs and two separate ones for single ended ones.

DAC wise, it has a set of the best DAC chips ever made, Burr-Brown PCM-1702 laser trimmer, resistor ladder type. Although there is a debate if the last ones from Burr-Brown, the PCM-1704 were not sounding better.

Probably second best ever laser mechanism, Sony KSS-151A based, Esoteric VRDS unit. It is magnetically driven, friction-less type - something not seen in the last 20 years.

Other than 4 digital outputs, it also has 4 digital inputs.

Excellent longevity, with laser unit only used up around 10% (from memory, but can re-test it).

I give local, cash paying purchasers an unconditional 12 month warranty but could extend it to you.

 

Rather than to write more, here is a link to my ad about the player which I have sold here, but then bought back and it is a player in my #1 system (and have vowed to never sell it again).

The one I would offer to you is the same, but in better visual condition.

Cheers,

Roman

[JkSpinner]

2 hours ago, Grizzly said:

Though it doesn't sport the XLR connections, there is a Sugden Fusion 21 player available in Brisbane currently that may suit? Certainly has an impeccable sonic pedigree! The Groove Man is the seller.

On Stereonet - ah the grooveman.  Found it

Edited June 12, 2024 by JkSpinner

[doogie44]

My son-in-law bought the Rotel CD-11 Tribute recently for some $750 and it sounds very, very good. Surprisingly good.

 

Review: https://www.soundstageaccess.com/index.php/equipment-reviews/1126-rotel-cd11-tribute-cd-player

 

"The performance of the CD11 Tribute is so remarkably similar to the analog output of the Oppo BDP-95—a beloved universal disc player with a $999 sticker price in its day—that, despite their very different DAC chips and the decade that separates their respective releases, making any meaningful distinctions between the two players in terms of Red Book performance tiptoes right up to the edge of pointlessness."

 

It's a great all-rounder sonically and won't break the bank. Can also be a transport if you desire.

 

In my own system I keep the Audionote CD2 player--but mostly listen to Auralic G1 streamer playing Qobuz via Denafrips DAC: bliss.

 

Just my 2c worth

[JkSpinner]

14 minutes ago, doogie44 said:

My son-in-law bought the Rotel CD-11 Tribute recently for some $750 and it sounds very, very good. Surprisingly good.

 

Review: https://www.soundstageaccess.com/index.php/equipment-reviews/1126-rotel-cd11-tribute-cd-player

 

"The performance of the CD11 Tribute is so remarkably similar to the analog output of the Oppo BDP-95—a beloved universal disc player with a $999 sticker price in its day—that, despite their very different DAC chips and the decade that separates their respective releases, making any meaningful distinctions between the two players in terms of Red Book performance tiptoes right up to the edge of pointlessness."

 

It's a great all-rounder sonically and won't break the bank. Can also be a transport if you desire.

 

In my own system I keep the Audionote CD2 player--but mostly listen to Auralic G1 streamer playing Qobuz via Denafrips DAC: bliss.

 

Just my 2c worth

I keep looking at the Rotel CD Players, especially the 1572 MKii, almost bought the Diamond edition but was too late.  Lots of believers, but lots of non believers as well - all opinions I know.

thanks

[rockeater]

2 hours ago, JkSpinner said:

I keep looking at the Rotel CD Players

I used to have Rotel RCD-991 (and now have Audiophile Edition of it sitting somewhere) and I used to use it as my main player for a number of years.

This was when I discovered the balanced connections. It made a huge difference to the way my Electrocompaniets sounded.

So I wanted a balanced output CD player. The cheapest on the market was Cambridge, but all units at all dealers were faulty - must have been a faulty batch.

I went for Rotel. It cost me then $1400. Excellent reviews, full of Black Gates. It had Burr-Brown PCM-63 in it and PMD-100 HDCD decoder from Pacific Microsonics. On paper, you could not buy better. Only the mechanism was ordinary - Sony KSS-213 based, but I did not know anything about mechanisms back then. A year later, after it broke down, I opened it up and found it to be the most beautifully made piece of electronics I have seen to date and I was fixing stuff for maybe 10 years or so by then.

Sadly, it never really lived up to expectation and it sounded exactly the same balanced as single ended and there was no magic. Some years later, after I sold it, I managed to get circuit diagram and have found that it wasn't really a proper balanced design, but merely a cold leg being derived from a hot one by way of an op-amp.

Since, I will not buy anything balanced until I SEE THE CIRCUIT.

Edited June 14, 2024 by rockeater
Added info about the DAC and mechanism after reading RCD-11 review which does not appear to mention neither the DAC or mech used.

[doogie44]

15 minutes ago, rockeater said:

I managed to get circuit diagram and have found that it wasn't really a proper balanced design, but merely a cold leg being derived from a hot one by way of an op-amp.

Since, I will not buy anything balanced until I SEE THE CIRCUIT.

But wot if the CD player identifies as balanced?? 

[rockeater]

46 minutes ago, doogie44 said:

But wot if the CD player identifies as balanced??

To start with, externally, the presence of XLR connectors.

To be truly balanced, it should have separate amplifiers for both both cold and hot legs for each channel.

Preferably dual differential design.

Standard single ended player has two audio channels, properly balanced one has four. Some, like the Wadia mentioned above has six, with single ended ones having separate ones (not to mention 3 FPA processors crunching number before signal even get to the DACs).

Fitting inverting op-amps is one way of faking balanced design. Another one is using output transformers, just like Philips / Marantz used to do in their top designs. Some of them Philips units fetch close to $15,000 now in Japan, mainly due to their rarity. Transformers on the output result in wooly, undefined sound, particularly in bass. Which for some might be the thing and for some music might indeed be nice.

Balanced was one of the requirements of the OP.

Edited June 14, 2024 by rockeater
Added info about the transformers in Philips / Marantz.

[Keith_W]

36 minutes ago, doogie44 said:

But wot if the CD player identifies as balanced?? 

 

Then you need to address the CD player by its preferred pronouns. 

[JkSpinner]

1 hour ago, rockeater said:

To start with, externally, the presence of XLR connectors.

To be truly balanced, it should have separate amplifiers for both both cold and hot legs for each channel.

Preferably dual differential design.

Standard single ended player has two audio channels, properly balanced one has four. Some, like the Wadia mentioned above has six, with single ended ones having separate ones (not to mention 3 FPA processors crunching number before signal even get to the DACs).

Fitting inverting op-amps is one way of faking balanced design. Another one is using output transformers, just like Philips / Marantz used to do in their top designs. Some of them Philips units fetch close to $15,000 now in Japan, mainly due to their rarity. Transformers on the output result in wooly, undefined sound, particularly in bass. Which for some might be the thing and for some music might indeed be nice.

Balanced was one of the requirements of the OP.

Thanks Rockeater, I take your point,  and I could not find anything in the MICHI litterature that said it was balanced either.  And I am guessing that it is difficult for the ordinary consumer to know this, we can only go via the manufacturers blurb.

my preference is balanced outputs and sockets but not essential.  I will most likely be purchasing a Lumin Streamer in the next month or so, and am guessing this will be my main source, but who knows, I still enjoy spinning my disks.  If I ever change Amps, I would probably go back to an analogue only amp, and maybe even a pre and power amp, but I reckon it would be analogue only, hopefully fully balanced.  But that is in the future.  Getting too old to move the 48kg Michi amp around.  I still prefer to buy new if I can.  I don’t have a proper room set up, I have a shared room with several acoustic issues, so also need to be realistic, I just need a system that sounds great, as great as it can in an imperfect room.  I am going through the process of adding treatments where possible, decent cables and interconnects where possible as well, so lots going on.

[muon*]

I had a Behringer SRC2496, it had balanced connectors for analogue out, but I discovered it was not really a balanced design and just had an extra amplifying circuit tacked on the end for balanced.

Sounded way better with that bypassed and connected single ended.

[POV]

On 12/06/2024 at 2:25 PM, rockeater said:

It makes huge difference if:

 

I'm curious what you think the huge difference is?

[rockeater]

13 hours ago, JkSpinner said:

I could not find anything in the MICHI litterature that said it was balanced either.  And I am guessing that it is difficult for the ordinary consumer to know this, we can only go via the manufacturers blurb.

Send me its exact model (from the rear panel sticker) and I will try to find a Service Manual and have a look for you.

I have no time to do it now, but if people want, I could take few screenshots of circuits, which could then enable anyone to easily identify if a system is balanced or not.

11 hours ago, POV said:

I'm curious what you think the huge difference is?

Two main areas that are important for audiophiles are:

- slam. Because most proper balanced design are differential (hopefully dual differential), they offer huge and fast voltage swings.

- lower noise floor. Sound comes out of silence. When I first connected my EC-4 and AW-100DMB (Elctrocompaniets) with XLRs, I thought there was something wrong and it went dead. Even at full power of 100W / ch there was nothing coming out of it. The faintest of hiss would be audible, but only if the ear was placed less than an inch from the tweeter, virtually touching it (kids, don't try this at home, because if your amp does not have good filtering and someone switches on the light or fridge compressor starts or washing machine, then you'll blow your tweeters to the middle of the room). Then I connected and turned on the source and it was bliss.

There are other benefits like immunity to external interference, because any noise induced into the system is then cancelled (because it is in both hot and cold legs but phase inverted), ability to run longer cables and ability to connect and disconnects stuff on a live system (because ground in XLRs mates first and disconnects last). I have written about it before at length and in more detail, so if anyone is interested, I suppose it can be found.

Biggest disadvantage is cost. You need 3 times as many active components (second lot for the cold channels and then some for power supply to them). And this is why no one ever makes balanced tube amps. If you trebled amount of tubes, you would have to then add another power supply of al least the same size, so it would cost 3 times as much as single ended amp. The only truly balanced tube system I have ever seen, was an old Sonic Frontiers one. They are now called Anthem and make Home Theater systems. There are maybe some other ones but I have never came across any modern ones.

[POV]

5 hours ago, rockeater said:

Two main areas that are important for audiophiles are:

Thanks for the detailed reply.   Your post suggesting the impact was huge caught my interest as I have been comparing fully balanced to single ended components in my headphone system recently and I had concluded that the differences were more what I might consider to be subtle is all.

[Keith_W]

5 minutes ago, POV said:

Thanks for the detailed reply.   Your post suggesting the impact was huge caught my interest as I have been comparing fully balanced to single ended components in my headphone system recently and I had concluded that the differences were more what I might consider to be subtle is all.

 

Do you think output volume might have something to do with it? Balanced is usually almost twice the output volume of single ended. 

[POV]

31 minutes ago, Keith_W said:

 

Do you think output volume might have something to do with it? Balanced is usually almost twice the output volume of single ended. 

I have carefully level matched between the 2 when comparing.   I do wonder if that’s the cause of folks reporting substantial differences yes.